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Thread: intake manifold modification

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMav View Post
    Hi Tassie basically the biggest single improvement to the std runner system is to raze the top 50mm. This has the effect to allow the centre entry air to enter the plenum more effectively or more so to allow the plenum to have a chance to have equal pressure across all runners. This is not a KW gain as such but does allow a few point of extra AFR hence more fuel can be added to gain the benefit. More to the point it allows The air to enter the plenum so it can slow down a bit so basically a accumulator more so than a distribution plenum. This has the effect of allowing the air to enter the runners at a much more straighter angle hence will allow more air to enter the runners and promote better cylinder filling through the valves. This usually shows up on the dyno as a quicker torque rise and a few more Nm of torque the stuff we should be concerned about. This sort of thing you can feel in the seat of your pants and the stuff that makes a 4x4 diesel fun to drive.

    Now I must add you can over come all this by just adding a lot more boost but by the nature of turbo's we just don't have a turbo big enough with a small enough turbine to allow the pressures required to do this effectively as a simple top lift. Sure it is possible to get 200rwkw from this std manifold I did this nearly 24 years ago, with my first turbo. But you couldn't drive the beast it was just madness. So with a lot of trial and error and a bit of logic I spent more hours driving my flow bench than I did driving my Mav. But I did learn how to make our TD a more effective high output engine. Now much of what I have done is to improve the effectiveness of a above 150rwkw TD system but much of this stuff does work for the lower tune values like the 50mm lid lift.

    To note the std runner system after a lid lift now becomes the main restriction factor to cylinder filling ability. To explain a bit here and to try and put this in a way that can be understood. I have modified my flow bench to reverse flow so it blows into the manifold just like a real turbo engine unlike a std bench which works on pulling air from the combustion chamber through the valves and runner. Sure I have to sacrifice some of the measuring equipment like the calibration plate ( the main thing you set your measurement criteria and gauges from) in the measuring plenum boxes but it still gave me a good indication of what was improved. I did all testing on a std head single cylinder as I had stuffed the other runners and valves through failed experiments. Anyway with hand held measurement probes I discovered when I cycled the valves with an electric motor set up to depress the valve just like a real engine at a simulated 200orpm or 1000rpm cam revs I found when the valves open in those short millisecond points there was vacuum holes in the std runners. This is what locks out any ability to approach cylinder filling ability of the head without the manifold and the limiting factor to outright power and torque rise. Hence my suggested statement that porting the head runners is a very small marginal gain in torque and outright KW. And in my experience and very expensive fails is usually a reduction in torque and kw. But a slightly bigger intake valve does seem to reduce the vacuum hole as the valve cycles, hence a bit more cylinder filling ability which reflect better torque rise the stuff we want.

    So as you can see there is a limit to what we can achieve with the std runners and just about all other modifications to the manifold past lifting the lid top 50mm is only very marginal increases hence my common reference to 1%ers. Sure as cool effective boost is increased or more effective turbo's are used we can do things to achieve better results. I can point these out if needed if above 150rwkw is your goal.

    Now to explain the whys here and how it effects spool or torque rise, If we improve cylinder filling we can effectively get better combustion for a better fuel ratio hence a better volumetric ratio this in turn produces a higher velocity of exhaust gas which in turn spins our turbine wheel faster with more force inturn our compressor accelerates quicker and faster to produce more volume/pressure earlier in the rev range hence more torque on a flatter curve. Our intake manifold is only one item in this chain that can be improved to get better usable torque/power where it is needed most. Unlike my first 200rwkw effort.

    Ok until next time or more question to spark more info locked away in my silly head.
    G'day Peter,

    Thanks again for your in-depth and quality information, i always look forward to reading your posts, has i always continue to learn something new!

    Regards,

    Paul
    The halls been rented the bands been paid, time to see you dance!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sooty_10 View Post
    Maybe you should write a book Pete. A how to modify and tune the powerful TD42 for dummies Would probably sell quite a few in auto stores. A question about water only, what water do you use? Can you use tap water? Area dependant on how heavy it is? I'd be keen to give it a look in if I could get an easy source of water and potentially a dual purpose water tank, drinking/injection. If touring how hard would it be to source a viable water source, with decent drinking quality filter? Looks like a few questions but it is really one long one
    Sooty there is no real reason to use distilled water or any other special dollar value water, Due to our usage its fine to use tap water. The only thing is to use good filtering for example a good fine stainless gauze or quality plastic gauze filter as a primary filter at the tank then always use the supplied inline fine filter supplied by the W/M injector supplier. As the jets are very fine and do require clean water. And yes the jets need to be serviced regularly to remove calcium deposits forming on the tip that can distort the spray pattern but good quality town water this is never a issue.

  3. #33
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    Humm after looking around for an WTA system I noticed on ebay a modified inlet that looks neat.
    Plazmaman Ebay item 161119490377.
    Note, it's not for the inlet only a pic of someone else's work

    WTA Kit was near 3K but didn't include the plenum.
    If you look closely at it, it has plazmaman logo on it.
    scroll down the page and there is a very good pic of it polished
    so maybe a modified linlet as described can be purchased on line
    Last edited by Robo; 15th February 2014 at 12:55 PM.
    IF IT'S NOT A NISSAN.
    THEN IT'S A COMPROMISE

  4. #34
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    Sadly these guys and I will not write there name but its only a STD manifold made pretty. these guys missed the boat and the opportunity to do something special. I haven't flow benched this manifold but I already know from experience it is marginal and as pressure rises it will get less results than the Bog STD manifold due to the absolutely silly radiuses on all edges. Even the Nissan engineers knew this and made there radius 15mm radius minimum.. Also $1500 for a pretty looking no better than a STD manifold is a joke.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to OldMav For This Useful Post:

    PMC (15th February 2014), Sherro (27th February 2014)

  6. #35
    Patrol Guru sooty_10's Avatar
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    Thanks for the confirmation on running tap water Pete. I have had others saying that you shouldn't use tap water. Due to deposits etc. but yeah have been seriously contemplating it and that was my major limiting factor. I would have a reasonable quality drinking water filter and then split the line to a water outlet and W/M line with as you say a finer filter inline. Time to start some planning and a shopping list.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nissannewby View Post
    Air speeds are lower at the valve, so better cylinder filling is achieved, which the equates to a faster torque rise. I believe the curved design also helps with reducing turbulence.
    Stop talking porn. lol

    Regards,

    RLI
    The halls been rented the bands been paid, time to see you dance!

  8. #37
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    G'evening Lounge Lizards,

    Due to me selling my 4.2 turbo diesel GU wagon, as previously advised, i am currently putting my Patrol back to stock. Therefore, i will be taking off the UFI inlet manifold built by Matt Craig in WA, which is designed to fit to the Cross Country intercooler set-up.

    PS, i will keep you posted when i offer it up for sale.

    Regards,

    RLI
    The halls been rented the bands been paid, time to see you dance!

  9. #38
    Patrol Guru sooty_10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RLI View Post
    G'evening Lounge Lizards,

    Due to me selling my 4.2 turbo diesel GU wagon, as previously advised, i am currently putting my Patrol back to stock. Therefore, i will be taking off the UFI inlet manifold built by Matt Craig in WA, which is designed to fit to the Cross Country intercooler set-up.

    PS, i will keep you posted when i offer it up for sale.

    Regards,

    RLI
    Good to know Paul, I'd be interested in some pics if you have any to throw up here?

    Ps. I hope your getting another patrol ??? Edit: just seen your patrols post.... Definitely an upgrade
    Last edited by sooty_10; 15th February 2014 at 08:01 PM.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sooty_10 View Post
    Good to know Paul, I'd be interested in some pics if you have any to throw up here?

    Ps. I hope your getting another patrol ???
    G'evening sooty,

    Check out page 26 on my build thread RLI's Patrol in the members ride section. I also match ported the manifold with the gasket.

    Regards,

    RLI
    The halls been rented the bands been paid, time to see you dance!

  11. #40
    Legendary Alitis007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMav View Post
    Back on topic, Good Question Alitis007 As you say, petrol's are a lot more sensitive than a diesel in the N/A area. This is due to a diesel has twice the compression ratio and a higher operating vacuum. You can use all the petrol tuned length formula's to calculate a ideal torque point if you factor in compression ratio and the extra air required for diesel fuel energy. But the tube lengths gets very long, then response time in the tube becomes a even more greater issue, and cylinder filling ability starts to counteracts volume transfer so it negates any gains. I have spent a lot of time investigation this idea. And I did build a long tube runner to plenum using a front mount cooler results were dismal and I mean very dismal I lost 50+rwkw and the EGT gauge reacted like a tacho. I never got this system of the dyno but it was really only to prove my own theories. I did try different length tubes just on trial and error to see what the torque curve did. The results were as the tube lengths got shorter and shorter I gained more kw and the torque curve became flatter and higher the shorter the tube runner got. I even tried bell mouths in the plenum no difference none at all. Using this real world stuff and using this info on the bench I found 110mm to 115mm from the centre of the valve was the ideal and no vacuum locks in the runner. So that leaves you about 20mm max for a runner past the head. Which doesn't leave much room to fit injector tubes between the runners. Now for the reason why here which is we are using pressure and no vacuum hence why the tube length gets shorter and shorter as the boost pressure rises. So the tube length I have given here is for the ideal of 30 psi at 2100 rpm to gain the best torque rise etc etc.. More pressure or less pressure will change this but not by a great deal for example 115mm is 20 psi..

    Cam shafts mmmm I have limited experience here but a lot of knowledge from research I can tell you the over lap cannot be made shorter otherwise your EGT will shy rocket as you add more boost/fuel/power. So a regrind is not a option for our TD. Because you cannot put metal on the cam lobe you can only remove it to change the profile. Doing this you have to reduce the overlap. So its a very BIG NO to a regrind. The only option is to have a new billet made so you can increase the overlap and increase the duration and or total cam lift. But there are some tricks we can do like increase the rocker ratio which increases all these values but same of these values may not be ideal. You also could change your lifters to mushroom lifters then uses the extra duration to regrind the cam for a increased overlap and lobe centres. The STD T cam we already have is quite good anyway so unless you are after over 900Nm and 230+rwkw it a waste of money for returns to your dollar. Besides that our crank will not survive this sort of neck snapping torque value. But there is good gains to be had with overlap times as we can offset EGT's hence use a much tighter turbine AR but its not really the ideal way to gain Spool times, Besides that we really want to increase out Volumetric efficiency so the below 1:1's EMP (exhaust manifold pressure) to IMP (intake manifold pressure) is the best way to go .
    I don't have much experience with diesels and don't have a great deal to do with them so i find all this intriguing. Your extensive R&D shows in your answer because you answered a question i thought of after i made the earlier post which was the bell mouthed/ tunnel rammed plenum, i'm guessing it was similar to a RB26dett with pre chamber ? Regardless its gives me a lot to think about. Thanks once again mate and best of luck with your plenum design

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