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Thread: Tow Ball Question

  1. #41
    Legendary NP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgm View Post
    Having a valid answer for this or similar questions really bugged me for a long time. I reckon it is a fair question and even though you know you shouldn't, what are some "common sense" answers that let you go away feeling comfortable about why you shouldn't?

    For me it started when being told at a club training day that I could not pull off the mount points on my ARB bar on my Rodeo. They looked like that's what they were made for!! The follow on was that it wasn't up for discussion or explanation, just that they're not made for it and that's it. Let me not go off topic, but just say that's where the similar thoughts started and it really bugged me that no one wanted to give me some reasonable technical or at least common sense technical level answer.

    Coming back to the topic of the towball I think much of the issue is directly related to the quote on Growler's signature: "WARNING: TOWBALLS USED WITH SNATCHSTRAPS DO KILL!!"

    I'm not saying the snatchstrap is the only problem with towball recoveries, but I think it is where the major issues start and most of the examples will be. I'm not a great fan of snatch straps simply because they can be so easily misused.

    With an 8000kg snatch strap (the lighter rating size) it is difficult to tell how much force will actually be applied between the two vehicles. If the pulling truck is in low first and driven off slowly but constantly with the other truck lightly stuck and only 1-2 metres of slack, then the force won't be too much. But in real life the guy who is stuck is up to his bonnet in mud, has a heap of gear in the car (equal to lots of weight) and the bar of his car is nudged up against a hard edge coming out of the bog hole. In no time at all to have any chance of getting him out with a snatch strap it can escalate to a dangerous place. How much force is being put on now? These are the "youtube" ones where you see them run at top speed with 4 or 5 metres + of slack. All that energy goes into the stretched strap and it has to go somewhere. You can easily imagine now that the 8000kg strap is still going to stand up to much more than the 3500kg tow ball. You can also easily start to imagine that the force could be in excess of the 3500kg rating of the towball. Something has to give, hopefully the stuck vehicle, but otherwise it is going to be the next weakest link, which is probably the towball (or a poor recovery point).

    This all ties in perfectly when you look at the forces required based on twisty's post, for the extra forces, etc.

    To me this is a common sense starting point that lets me start to understand "why" we shouldn't do it.

    There are some great background points in this ARB article (things like forces involved, not being able to control the use of a product, etc.):

    http://www.arb.com.au/getting-starte...ery_points.php
    (I think this article was originally in the ARB Spring 2011 Newsletter as well, which is where I originally noticed it)

    Coming back to the original question about the towball vs the shackle (quote from the article):


    "Thankfully, there are standards for the shackles we all use to attach straps, however their rating system is based on lifting gear standards, and the safety factors in lifting gear mean that the rating is one fifth of the failure point."

    So, going from this the common 4.75T (4750kg) shackle we usually see and use is not meant to break (as a safety factor) until it has 5 x 4.75 = 23.75T.

    Do you think you'd have the same 5 x factor on the 3.5T towball? I really doubt it. Do you think you'd have the same 5 x factor on the 8000kg snatch strap? I'm sure it isn't. (there was a 4wd action article where they tested various brand staps until they broke, but I can't find it just now to see what rough factor it was - would love it if anyone had a reference to that?)

    So, at least for me, that gives me a comfortable, "common sense" answer as to why not the towball when we use shackles in many situations with recoveries.

    Final comment: Any solid object used in a recovery can easily end up being a deadly "missile" - including shackles. Minimize their use, never join straps with them and always hook to a solid rated recovery point (rated points is a whole other topic, but I'll leave that to TD and other experts). You can use a good shackle on a good strap and hook it to a tie down point which will break and easily still kill someone with no towball involved.

    Sorry for the long answer, but hope some of this makes sense to answer the actual question.
    I appreciate your reply mate, thank you. Sometimes when you get a response of because it is so, or like you mentioned there will be no debate on this, you start to doubt the validity of a statement.

  2. #42
    Patrol Guru rottodiver's Avatar
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    Tow Ball Question

    Shackles have a safety factor of 6... Eg a 4.25 shackle will fail at 25.5 T
    This is the reason shackles are for lifting and pulling!!!!!!
    Scotty

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to rottodiver For This Useful Post:

    NP99 (27th March 2013)

  4. #43
    Patrol Freak lhurley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twisty View Post
    Got this info here (page 6). Condensed

    My 4x4 usually weighs close to 3000kg (6600lb) on a trip. To move or pull a vehicle on a firm flat bitumen surface requires a force of about 10% of the loaded weight of the vehicle. Gravel or grass increases this to about 33%. The limit of a towballs capcity WITHOUT a snatch strap.

    1lb equals 0.454kgs, or 1kg equals 2.2lbs.

    Bogged
    Bogged to the Base of the Wheel Rim, needs a pull of about 100% of the load.
    Bogged to the wheel Hub, requires a pull of 200% of the load.
    Bogged to the Belly or the Chassis, 300%.

    Slope
    • 15degree Slope = add +25% of the weight
    • 30degree Slope = add +50%
    • 45degree Slope = add +75%
    For a Decline, or Downhill, change the "plus" to a "minus".

    Example
    I'm bogged to the Hubs on a 30 degree slope. (3000+50%)x2=9000kg (19800lb). Way beyond a towballs capacity

    Share as you see fit.
    Great info, rather interesting too.

    Reading this got me thinking, Using twisty's example, the force required to move the car was 9000kg, now this isnt an uncommon situation to be in.

    How can a 12000lb winch move the car? 12000lb is only 5448kg. Is there something Im missing that makes the winch be able to pull TWICE its capacity?
    1999 GU DUAL FUEL 4.5 - 2" OME - 33's KM2s - SNORKEL - CUSTOM DINTS.... Goes by the name Candy (the car not me )

  5. #44
    Hardcore macca86's Avatar
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    Winch blocks double and triple line pulls
    Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward.
    Whoever cannot take care of themselves without that law is both.
    For a wounded man shall say to his assailant,
    'If I live, I will kill you. If I die, You are forgiven.'
    Such is the rule of honour.

  6. #45
    Hardcore healy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twisty View Post
    Got this info here (page 6). Condensed

    My 4x4 usually weighs close to 3000kg (6600lb) on a trip. To move or pull a vehicle on a firm flat bitumen surface requires a force of about 10% of the loaded weight of the vehicle. Gravel or grass increases this to about 33%. The limit of a towballs capcity WITHOUT a snatch strap.

    1lb equals 0.454kgs, or 1kg equals 2.2lbs.

    Bogged
    Bogged to the Base of the Wheel Rim, needs a pull of about 100% of the load.
    Bogged to the wheel Hub, requires a pull of 200% of the load.
    Bogged to the Belly or the Chassis, 300%.

    Slope
    • 15degree Slope = add +25% of the weight
    • 30degree Slope = add +50%
    • 45degree Slope = add +75%
    For a Decline, or Downhill, change the "plus" to a "minus".

    Example
    I'm bogged to the Hubs on a 30 degree slope. (3000+50%)x2=9000kg (19800lb). Way beyond a towballs capacity

    Share as you see fit.
    I'm gonna disagree with this what about a winch? How does that pull the car in some of those situations. The only time I use a towball is for the trailer other than that it won't be on the car ok same question asked
    IF ITS NOT BROKEN IT MUST BE A PATROL

  7. #46
    Patrol Freak lhurley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macca86 View Post
    Winch blocks double and triple line pulls
    Ok yes, i didnt think of that. Is a double line pull a common thing?? or are more people inclined to just line it up and go a single line?
    1999 GU DUAL FUEL 4.5 - 2" OME - 33's KM2s - SNORKEL - CUSTOM DINTS.... Goes by the name Candy (the car not me )

  8. #47
    Legendary NP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhurley View Post
    Ok yes, i didnt think of that. Is a double line pull a common thing?? or are more people inclined to just line it up and go a single line?
    Depends how much you need to pull.

  9. #48
    Moderator MudRunnerTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twisty View Post
    Got this info here (page 6). Condensed

    My 4x4 usually weighs close to 3000kg (6600lb) on a trip. To move or pull a vehicle on a firm flat bitumen surface requires a force of about 10% of the loaded weight of the vehicle. Gravel or grass increases this to about 33%. The limit of a towballs capcity WITHOUT a snatch strap.

    1lb equals 0.454kgs, or 1kg equals 2.2lbs.

    Bogged
    Bogged to the Base of the Wheel Rim, needs a pull of about 100% of the load.
    Bogged to the wheel Hub, requires a pull of 200% of the load.
    Bogged to the Belly or the Chassis, 300%.

    Slope
    • 15degree Slope = add +25% of the weight
    • 30degree Slope = add +50%
    • 45degree Slope = add +75%
    For a Decline, or Downhill, change the "plus" to a "minus".

    Example
    I'm bogged to the Hubs on a 30 degree slope. (3000+50%)x2=9000kg (19800lb). Way beyond a towballs capacity

    Share as you see fit.

    So the above Info was actually used by AB in the November Mag of the forum but he found it in this thread i produced in the early days on this forum

    Recovery-The-Fundamentals

    Having a good read of the first few posts are a timely reminder and a good education for our group and pertinent to this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by lhurley View Post
    Great info, rather interesting too.

    Reading this got me thinking, Using twisty's example, the force required to move the car was 9000kg, now this isnt an uncommon situation to be in.

    How can a 12000lb winch move the car? 12000lb is only 5448kg. Is there something Im missing that makes the winch be able to pull TWICE its capacity?

    Given that it was an extract have a look at that thread and scroll down to the section regarding the Snatch Block. In fact start from the top and it will all become clear and make sense. The Power of the Snatch Block!!


    Quote Originally Posted by macca86 View Post
    Winch blocks double and triple line pulls
    ^^^What He Said^^^


    Quote Originally Posted by healy View Post
    I'm gonna disagree with this what about a winch? How does that pull the car in some of those situations.

    Healy have a read mate. Recovery-The-Fundamentals


    Quote Originally Posted by lhurley View Post
    Ok yes, i didnt think of that. Is a double line pull a common thing?? or are more people inclined to just line it up and go a single line?
    I use them all the time. dont wait until your winch stalls and you burn the motor out! if in doubt use a snatch block.

    Quote Originally Posted by NP99 View Post
    Depends how much you need to pull.
    ^^^What he said^^^
    Its a Nissan! =====> Its a Keeper!! ....... Got a TD42 in it BONUS!! ....... I'm a lucky bugger! I've got 2 of em!
    Check out my Toy --> MudRunnerTD's GQ From the Ground Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Dung Beetle View Post
    Wish it was Nissan though, Toyotas just can't keep up with the Pootrol pace.
    The only good thing about an 80 series is..... the front end?? Wrong!!, the Engine?? Wrong!! the Full Time 4WD system?? Wrong!! Its the NissanPatrol.com.au stubby holder fitted over the transfer lever.
    WARNING: Towballs used for recoveries can, and do kill people and damage property.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MudRunnerTD For This Useful Post:

    cgm (28th March 2013), twisty (28th March 2013)

  11. #49
    Patrol Freak lorrieandjas's Avatar
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    Guys - the thing to remember here is it is all about physics - but more importantly about safety! On some recoveries we are talking about massive amounts of force in the equation. Without going into details - if you have a piece of your recovery platform let go at say 12,000kg, the resultant movement of any projectile in the recovery is about 40 metres per second dependent on mass (using a lot of assumptions here!). Think about it - that tow ball or unrated recovery point is going to punch you in the neck pretty quick! It doesn't ever, ever, ever need to get to that.

    One thing I will comment on that has been said by MR and others but seems lost in the double line or triple line pull excitement - remember that while the snatch block reduces effort on the winch - the forces on the anchor points are still the sum of the recovery effort. So you better hope you have a good recovery point and that those trees are well anchored in by their roots! Wise advice given to me - if in doubt - don't do it! But if you know what you are doing a tough recovery is thing of beauty!

    Jas
    __________________________________________
    Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads.......

    2012 Silver GU 8. Bullbar, Warn XD9000 winch, snorkel, towbar, roof bars and rack, awning, 33" Mickey Thompson ATZ 4ribs, 2" lift - Dobinsons coils and Koni shocks, more to come......

    2013 Travelling Wilbury's Cape York Trip - bring it on!

    WARNING: Towballs used for recoveries can, and do kill people and damage property.

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