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View Poll Results: Would you like to see accecptable recovery epuipment mandated?

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42. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes let's get it happening

    27 64.29%
  • No I think self regulation is fine

    15 35.71%
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Thread: Let's Get Smart

  1. #31
    Patrol Freak fixer982's Avatar
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    My 4WD Club runs training just like other clubs do, and while much of it is statement of the obvious, there are always gems to be picked up from it. An active bloke in 4WD in SA who runs much of the training here made a film with a number of others on the Snatch Strap recovery and the need for something to damp the flying snatchstrap in the event of a failure. They simulated a failure such as a towball or shackle failure, by attaching to the towing vehicle with multiple loops of rope and attached the other end of the strap to a tree protector around a tree to represent the stuck vehicle.

    In front of the tree, they placed a wooden pallet such as bricks are delivered on, and in front of that they placed a thick piece of galvanised tin, about 10 guage in the old numbers. They then simulated the recovery with just a recovery bag such as they sell at ARB, TJM etc, filled with the recommended 15kg of dirt in its pockets astride the snatch strap.

    The results were frightening, as the shackle on the towing end went through the tin plate, the pallet and took a big chunk out of the tree. The video was shown at one of our club evenings and it had a sobering effect on everybody there. This is the sort of training stuff that needs to be made widely available, as it showed that even with the right connection points etc, a gear failure could still cause damage. You cannot easily legislate against this, except to mark the gear and enforce only the sale of properly rated stuff.

    I guess my point is I agree with much of what has been said, but I think that the most beneficial way to avoid the sort of deaths and injuries we have seen is education and training, and publicising what we all know. You cannot regulate stupidity or macho performance as Snicko has noted, but you can at least remove the "i didn't know" factor. There should be safety documentation with every 4WD sold. It won't necessarily stop problems, but if everyone knew that their gear should be rated, that the vehicle should have proper recovery points and that the book in the glovebox showed them where and where not to attach, we might have made some progress.

    At the end of the day, there is some of the "Natural Selection" aspect to all of this, but so long as our 4WD Clubs and Forum members, and their kith and kin are schooled by us, and so long as we take care ourselves, I doubt we can do any more. As a group we should try to get the safety message out there the best we can, but we cannot stop every idiot. These we should just stay clear of, and advise anyone we see to do the same. In motor sport, we used to have the same reckless cowboys show up from time to time and if the scrutineers did not pick up their shortcuts and dangerous behaviour, then occasionally one would fall victim to his own behaviour. That's why they say that "Motor Sport is dangerous" on the tickets. But still the crowds come. I just don't stand too close to the fence.

    Sorry. sermon over.
    Last edited by fixer982; 3rd August 2011 at 12:03 PM.
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    Finly Owner (3rd August 2011)

  3. #32
    Patrol God Finly Owner's Avatar
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    Well said Fixer!


    Tim
    Getting Older Is Unavoidable, Growing Up Is Optional!

  4. #33
    Advanced satyx's Avatar
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    My 2 cents…

    I don’t see gear or equipment quality as the main contributor to the problem, as others have mentioned, its education. As with everything a decision cant be made without the proper information. Without experience and knowledge how are we supposed to select and use gear that is suitable for our needs.

    Taking recovery gear as an example, I work in aftermarket sales and sell straps suitable for use with light weight 4bys as well straps suitable for fully loaded cruisers and patrols. Yet over half of my customers select gear based on price. Even with a rating on the packet and my knowledge about the product telling them its not suitable they still select something because its cheap. I have even seen a customer select a flat towing rope to use for “towing my mates ute out of a bog” his words. What can I say to that other then strongly advise against it. There are too many people buying based on price rather then safety. They do this because they don’t know any better.

    Somehow educating more people about safety is what’s needed. Mandating recovery gear isn’t the answer, as you still have people using mandated gear incorrectly. Someone mentioned a ladder in an earlier post and it’s a great example, everybody has seen someone use an ADR approved and certified ladder incorrectly. Why would recovery gear be any different.
    2005 GU 3.0L ST
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    snicko (10th August 2011)

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stets View Post
    ok, i am all for mandating safety equipment for 4wd's, but how do we do it? there isnt a car manufacturer that will specifically manufacture and include recovery gear for their vehicles.
    lets not forget that many of the incidents where injuries occur arent when recovering other 4wd's its from recovering 2wd vehicles that were pushed beyond their capabilities.

    mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?

    i know i wouldnt, but i do believe that we should all stick together as a community and support and train and assist by spreading the word and taking fellow young 4wders under our wings and showing them the right way to do things.



    With you there ! Having legeslation changed would make a small difference sure, but will never make any REAL impact except on your wallets. I and many others have been down this road for other things and it really is like pushing runny poos up hill in the rain with a rake. We all know enough about that world to know that it only caters to a few who actually listen and care.

    It is up to us to educate and police the populace...and thak goodness for that !!! We have no political red tape to get through !! Clubs need to be as accessable as possible and as welcoming as possible ( like this one !!! ) to everyone INCLUDING the wannabees trying to 4wd in their 2wd ( of which I was one untill not too long ago hahah ) !!!!

    I do also agree with having products correctly labled WITH proper instructions on the use of those products. Most sales staff are just doing a job and have no interest in what they are selling so trying to educate them is a wate of time too. Again, knowing whhat to buiy and how to use it is something you find out in a club of from an enthusiest. Those of us with the knowledge have the resposibilty of getting it out there.

    On that note...thank you all for this invaluable information that will no doubt be saving my life and others !!!

  7. #35
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    This forum is specific to Nissan Patrols. But how do we determine the recovery gear to be carried by Nissan X-Trail or (heaven forbid) a RAV 4. One size will not fit all, and the "Toorack Tractors" never get off the black-top, so do they need recovery gear?
    Mandates are a good idea until one tries to figure out how it is done.

  8. #36
    Patrol God taslucas's Avatar
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    I think nearly all failures have either been a tow ball or a bullbar. I don't think there is any recorded fatalities even from a broken snatch strap(by itself). I don't think there has been any serious injury or death from a hitch receiver failing. My point is that it seems to be bad practices not bad equipment that causes injury or death. The only real exception is under rated shackles. In the coroners reports in the other thread they all seem to point to bad practices which is unfortunate as it the cheapest and maybe easiest to fix.:-(
    Hello from Under Down Under!

  9. #37
    Patrol Freak BillsGU's Avatar
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    An interesting topic. I have only two points. Firstly - what is common sense? What is obvious to one person is (due to lack of experience, life skills, etc) not so obvious to another person. That is why people use tow balls as snatch points.

    Secondly, many comments througout this topic speak about training and education, which I agree with completely.

    And that ponders a question of you all though. How many of you have actually completed a FORMAL and ACCREDITED 4WD course? Some club training would be included - but with most clubs it is "Off road familliarisation Training" rather than an accredited course. Better than nothing - but still not accredited.

  10. #38
    Patrol God taslucas's Avatar
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    I suppose there are lots of things in life that we can become experienced or trained in without completing formal education. A test for your drivers licence doesn't teach you how to get up that night hill. All knowledge has to be taught or worked out or experienced for oneself. It just sucks when the experience ends in injury or worse.
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  11. #39
    Patrol Freak BillsGU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taslucas View Post
    I suppose there are lots of things in life that we can become experienced or trained in without completing formal education. A test for your drivers licence doesn't teach you how to get up that night hill. All knowledge has to be taught or worked out or experienced for oneself. It just sucks when the experience ends in injury or worse.
    Thats true. I have been driving off road for more years than I care to count, (and yes I have completed a number of accredited courses). I have come across many people who have claimed to have done likewise and I sometime cringe at their lack of knowledge and at some of the dangerous practices they employ (and more to the point pass on to others). Even on this forum people in all innocence have given dangerous advice to beginners. (Such as in one tread saying its OK to recover a vehicle using the rear hook situated below the doors on Patrols).

  12. #40
    Patrol God Finly Owner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillsGU View Post
    An interesting topic. I have only two points. Firstly - what is common sense? What is obvious to one person is (due to lack of experience, life skills, etc) not so obvious to another person. That is why people use tow balls as snatch points.

    Secondly, many comments througout this topic speak about training and education, which I agree with completely.

    And that ponders a question of you all though. How many of you have actually completed a FORMAL and ACCREDITED 4WD course? Some club training would be included - but with most clubs it is "Off road familliarisation Training" rather than an accredited course. Better than nothing - but still not accredited.
    I have not yet done The DAP course with QNPC but it is a requirement of our club before being allowed to join in on trips of a class 3 or higher. But I have done lot of listening to debates and my investigations into the forces and engineering of designs in recovery points to put myself at rest.


    Tim
    Getting Older Is Unavoidable, Growing Up Is Optional!

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