Law passed to allow hunting in NSW national parks

[Silver]

Stets, your comments focus on protection of native animals in land set aside for that purpose - and the law change is about shooting in national parks, so I'll talk about that.

I think we are all keen to see conservation of native animals and plants in national parks.

I am not saying that NSW should follow SA - but it looks like it will from the limited info in the press release.

I think your specific concerns, in relation to shooting in national parks will be addressed because rangers will be part of the program and will certainly be taking a look at the areas where feral animal control has been undertaken by people who are not rangers.

It has worked well in SA and the issues you are concerned about have not arisen in national parks there.

I am member of SSAA - but not of one of the hunting and conservation groups, and I live in Qld, not SA or NSW :-). I have taken the trouble to find info from SA Gov't rather than relying on SSAA info to address any suggestion of bias.

Can I say too, Stets, that this seems to me to be an issue you obviously feel deeply about. I want to thank you for the polite and measured way you have put your views. That's so much a part of what this forum is about, and I hope others who join this discussion keep it that way. Thanks again mate.

Cheers,

Rick

[stets]

rick, it is a passion of mine. i have been out bush working on stations and closer to town on many farms too. i know boith sides of the story and the effects that feral introduced species have on stock throughout australia.

my issue is mainly to do with dingoes more than other larger native species. dingoes are the only native species to NOT be recognised as australian wildlife in the protection acts. arial 1080 poison baiting takes place australia wide, south australia even has a bounty on the hides of dingoes. wa actively claims there is no such thing as "a pure bred dingo" and promotes total erradication of any wild canine. even in the NT where dingoes are protected they are shot by poachers without penalty, even when reported. and in qld, even the dingoes on fraser island, a dedicated, promoted place set aside with a heritage listing, dingoes are shot on site (usually rubber bullets, but often not) if they are seen to be within 100ft of people. pure "alpine"dingo numbers are becoming limited and they are in danger of becoming extinct as are the fraser island dingoes. both being reported to have under 200 left in thier respective habitats.

nsw new laws do not show any limitations put on shooters, simply pointing out that there is a problem and they want people that like to shoot things to help eradicate a few named species. once you open the gates, all hell breaks out, that is what needs to be controlled.

a few rangers, to a few thousand shooters is hardly policing the enterprise. strict harsh penalties that are enforced would be a good start, an investigation process would be another step to help keep poachers in check too.... i'll support the new laws when the government takes some responsibility for the welfare of what was here long before they were. until then this isnt a "win" for anyone except those people that like to kill for fun

for those of you that share similar wildlife conservation views, i understand that hunting can be not only a way to feed your family and help control unwanted species in our national parks, however, contrary to stated belief, true conservationalists are seriously outnumbered

[Maxhead]

a few rangers, to a few thousand shooters is hardly policing the enterprise. strict harsh penalties that are enforced would be a good start, an investigation process would be another step to help keep poachers in check too.... i'll support the new laws when the government takes some responsibility for the welfare of what was here long before they were. until then this isnt a "win" for anyone except those people that like to kill for fun

Great comments guys.

Stets, policing the whole scheme would be an ideal outcome. Hopefully the legislation has "just been passed" and some control measures take place. Last thing we want is people going out blasting anything that moves but unfortunately the government has neglected this issue for so long they had to take some actions to make them look good, I doubt a lot will happen.

Let's not loose track of the farming community who put food on our tables. They keep getting shafted by this government enough as it is and the last thing they want is loose stock they work hard for.
There is also the responsible shooters who do the right thing, they should not be punished for the few idiots out there.

It's a sticky subject but there has to be a well thought out balance point to suit all parties involved instead of just siding with one side of the equasion.

[stets]

I'm all for balance, and I enjoy hunting as much as the next bloke. Love goat, roo, venison meat, and have been known to take a pig or roo for dog food too when working in the scrub. I have shot my fair share of feral introduced species as well.

However, responsible shooters, proper hunters and the like are rare. With trophy photos and skulls being high on the list of many.

To me though the balance shouldn't be the split down the middle of taking the good with the bad, the balance should be native animals in nature reserves and NP's should be protected.... Full stop.

Dingoes in particular aren't even protected there.

In fact, go grab your hunting magazine of the newsstand shelf and have a look through the readers photos. Doesn't matter which magazine, they all have pictures of native trophy animals. Including larger than usual roos, dingoes, I've Even seen crocs shot for trophy.

If it's an orange dog let it pass through the sights, give it the benefit of doubt and the respect it deserves for surviving in terrain that most people haven't been able to adapt to survive in yet.

Nsw highlands (most of nsw NP's) is the last remaining refuge for the alpine dingoes along with a few small patches in vic. With an eatimated less than 200 pure alpines in the wild, that breed, less than a tenth of it's young survive to breed.

It's not a fair call by the government at all, there is no protective legislation against shooting dingoes, there is no legislation intact even recognizing they are Australian. And now they open up their homes for an open slather for introduced species.

That's the same as saying if your family haven't been in Australia for over 30,000 years then we don't want you here so let's shoot you. From memory us "white" people haven't been here much longer than 5-10 generations. What gives us the right to destroy that which was here long before our time.

This is a similar way the tassie tiger ended. Farmers wanting something done, so they called on everyone to shoot them. Now no tassie tiger, the Eco system hasn't been able to cope properly since...... But the farmers are happy.




Tap,tap,tapping in your head

[Silver]

Is the other big challenge for the dingo, as a purebred animal anyway, cross breeding with domestic dogs, and the offspring of dingos and dogs who have already done the dastardly deed?

I am not a scientist, but have seen scientists use islands as refuges for threatened species. A viable population of dingos would need a pretty big island - Fraser might be big enough for that strain, but where could we put the alpine dingos? Maybe some lateral thinking, and a look at some of the New 2ealand islands that are already over run with rats etc to the point where, from a N2 point of view they are a conservation write off, but have no dog population? They would be cold enough to maintain the characteristics that separate the Alpine type from the lowlanders?

[Silver]

(some text deleted)
In fact, go grab your hunting magazine of the newsstand shelf and have a look through the readers photos. Doesn't matter which magazine, they all have pictures of native trophy animals. Including larger than usual roos, dingoes, I've Even seen crocs shot for trophy.
(some text deleted)

Hi Stets, You make some interesting points in the text I deleted - but since I am responding to your quest above, I have deleted it for brevity.

I checked the two current maga2ines I have at home.

Australian Hunter Edition 41. A SSAA publication. It has none of the images you mention above as being present in all mags. It does have ducks, which appear to have been shot in NSW under some sort of pest control arrangement over crops, and then eaten - page 64.

Guns and Game Number 74. Again, none of the images you mention as being present in all mags. It does have a full page on page 91 from the NSW Gov't highlighting the damage feral animals do in Australia.

Please don't take this as a cheap shot, Stets, I'm just trying to bring the discussion onto a more factual basis. I fully appreciate the more substantive points you make around the dingo, for example, and acknowledge that there are problem shooters out there.

I have never seen a photo of a croc taken by an amateur since they were fully protected. I have seen recipes for wallaby from Tasmania, where licenses are issued to take wallabies, but cannot recall any other images of shot roos or wallabies.

I think I may have seen documentaries on a Dingo Hunter in NSW on the ABC, and have read articles that include shooting dingos in places where the science is apparently such that a government bounty is in place - along with aerial baiting programs. It may be as you say, Stets, that farmer's economic imperatives are given undue importance - I don't know because I haven't looked into it. It seems to come down to whether or not sheep can be farmed in a particular area.

You might disagree Stets, but I see the recent changes to legislation around national parks as being seperate from the much bigger issues facing dingos in Australia.

[stets]

Rick, first issue, island relocation. Yes scientists have done this in the past and it has clearly been seen as an extremists solution due to popular peoples perspective to eradicate those species or the direct impact that domestic animals have had on that species.

Yes a secluded area of nature would be an ideal option however, not relocating and entire strain of a species. That would be like forcing your neighbor to move for fear his rotweiler will eat your cat.

Not a solution at all, European culture has taken over just about every viable farming or pastoral land available as it is, removing every obstacle, be it aboriginals or native animals, all for the mighty dollar.

No account has been taken in history to resolve these issues, with the exception of providing areas set aside for the "problems" that aren't viable profitable lands to begin with.

So no moving dingoes to NZ should not be an option, however, in order to save a strain of species it could be force upon them.

As for the magazine issue... I do have to admit that over the last few years I have seen less and less trophy photo of native animals published in the magazines, as it has clearly been considered poor form. They do on occasion make poor headlines though.
So I apologize if I made it sound as though every issue of every mag publishes these photos, as I acknowledge it is becoming more of an uncommon occurrence.

Many other online forums associated with these magazines, do still have and accept posts by those that trophy hunt.



Tap,tap,tapping in your head

[Silver]

thanks, Stets.

I agree that some pretty unfortunate decisions, with the benefit of hindsight, have been made in pursuit of the $$. And some pretty ugly ones, too. And it is still happening - take your dingo issue, or maybe the coal seam gas issue, or maybe the fracking issue..... I hope we get the last couple right and don't mess up our artesian water.

In an ideal world, if dingos could be kept in the Alpine National Park, and other strains of dogs kept out - that would seem to be a good start for those pure strain Alpine Dingos?

Hard to arrange, perhaps, and expensive, but a start?

I personally don't have an issue with dingos being managed in National Parks so that their interactions with humans remain reasonably safe. From the limited time I spent on Fraser, the biggest problem with dingo behaviour there is human behaviour!

Once the pure strain dingos start to range into mixed use areas such as farmland and around towns, the risk of hybridisation (did I spell that correctly :-) ) must increase - how do we strike the right balance there, do you reckon?

I personally would like to see domestic cats and dogs under 100% control 100% of the time, but that is unreallistic, and particularly in the case of cats, not what a lot of owners seem to want. (yeah I know cats don't hybridise with dingos :-) )

I suppose taxpayers could compensate farmers for the economic value of the loss of stock due to dingo attack.

I've seen my farming relatives on the New England deal with the emotional shock of dog attacks - in one instance the neighbour's working dogs not managed correctly, and the other, a wild dog - maybe a dingo, maybe not, never seen to identify it. It wasn't pretty. I don't think it would be easy to assign a dollar value to that.

They are dealing with the same issues with wolves and one of the National Parks and the surrounding country in USA - I think Yellowstone? one of the big ones, anyway. The wolves were reintroduced to predate upon antelope or bison/buffalo, I can't remember now. It is causing a lot of friction over there.

This is a difficult problem that we aren't going to solve on this forum, but it is interesting to discuss.

Can I ask that we all continue to keep it polite and measured? I've been pretty impressed so far!

I guess the focus on dingos is getting a bit off topic - maybe we either stop, or start another thread?

Rick

[Robo]

Whats all the talk about fellers as soon as the greenies catch up to what penny pinching Barry has done it will be shut down again.

[Bob]

Great to see this discussion being carried out in a polite & courteous manner by both points of view. Well done Guys