thanks guy's for your quick and friendly response to my first question, (first time on a forum so didn't quite know what to expect) i'm happy to say you have just confirmed my choice of the Patrol ST. On the subject of some decent A/T tyres,can you recommend some that the dealer may look at and wont send him running at the cost as most of the time the wife will be driving round town but once a month we will definitely be on sand i hope!