2"lift steering wheel of center, everything is stock

hi,
so ive read plenty of threads about this and im abit lost.
ive got a 2008 y61 wagon with 2 inch lift everything else is stock such as sway-bar & links, brake lines, steering arms and so on.

when driving on highways i hold the steering wheel turned right about 1 o'clock id say
when i let go within 2 seconds the wheel turns to 11 oçlock'ish and at 11 oclock the front wheels must point the the left so the car pulls left fast.

so ive read alot and i want someone to tell me what i should do.
adjustable drag link?
return to center dampener?
both?
wheel alignment? dont hink this will do anything as theres nothing to adjust?

i was going to pull the steering wheel of and rotate it anti clock wise but all that would do is mean i would be at 12 oclock and going straight and let go and wheel would go to 10 oclock and pull left.
i want to do it right.

im thinking drag link would be the way to go but dont know if that would fix my issue.
my wheel is of center in both directions so i think a longer drag link would make it good one wat and worse the other, and a shorter drag link would be the other way.
im overthinking this thing?

I would get a wheel alignment first to make sure everything is ok. Pulling to the left is a fairly common issue with the Patrols, can simply be due to the off camber on the road. A RTC dampener fixed the issue for me as every single aspect of my steering and suspension geometry checked out good. I would advise on getting an adjustable drag link too so when the drifting left issue is resolved you can centre the steering wheel via the drag link.

am i better getting the wheel alignment first of the adjustable drag link?
id hate to go to the wheel aligner and them tell me theres not much adjustment in a partol.
if i get the drag link first then at least they can adjust it during the alignment?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireblade

am i better getting the wheel alignment first of the adjustable drag link?
id hate to go to the wheel aligner and them tell me theres not much adjustment in a partol.
if i get the drag link first then at least they can adjust it during the alignment?

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You are always better getting a wheel allignment and a written report of all your steering geometries. You need to know exactly whats is what and where it needs to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

You are always better getting a wheel allignment and a written report of all your steering geometries. You need to know exactly whats is what and where it needs to be.

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^^^What he said^^^

Also the Drag link has nothing to do with an alignment. it aligns the steering wheel to straight and helps your steering find the centre of the steering box but nothing else. More likely to be a Tie Rod issue or caster issue.

Caster, Toe and alignment can all be adjusted on a Patrol. Camber cannot unless you fit Offset Kingpin bearing races which work great. Even alignment is difficult to adjust without adjustable Panhards.

Get an alignment report done. it might be enough to fix the problem.

Thinking out loud here - caster correction, understand stock caster has a tolerance of +/- 1 deg and normally 1 degree of correction is required / 1 inch of lift. I run 2" lift and have 2 deg caster correction bushes fitted. Saying this, some can get away with retaining stock caster bushes. A wheel alignment should identify if a need exist but I would buy some 2 degree caster correction bushes and a good steering SME would do wheel alignment and fit the bushes at same time . Many suppliers around, superior eng sell them:

https://www.superiorengineering.com....hane-coil-8843

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bidja

Thinking out loud here - caster correction, understand stock caster has a tolerance of +/- 1 deg and normally 1 degree of correction is required / 1 inch of lift. I run 2" lift and have 2 deg caster correction bushes fitted. Saying this, some can get away with retaining stock caster bushes. A wheel alignment should identify if a need exist but I would buy some 2 degree caster correction bushes and a good steering SME would do wheel alignment and fit the bushes at same time . Many suppliers around, superior eng sell them:

https://www.superiorengineering.com....hane-coil-8843

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Personally I would just use Genuine bushes for a 2inch lift and not use castor correction bushes. Anything higher than 2inch, use drop boxes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mudski

Personally I would just use Genuine bushes for a 2inch lift and not use castor correction bushes. Anything higher than 2inch, use drop boxes.

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In your opinion, for 2" lift why not caster correction bushes?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mudski

Personally I would just use Genuine bushes for a 2inch lift and not use castor correction bushes. Anything higher than 2inch, use drop boxes.

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if i use genuine bushes then the caster will be un-changed from what is is now.
i understand drag link will only control the centering of the steering wheel
if the wheel is wanting to turn to 11 o'clock without me holding it then a wheel alignment might be what i need.
if i get a adjustable drag link and rtc dampener i might be able to make it all good. feel like a wheel alignment is a wast of money. hate taking the car to other people for work and i always leave thinking it was a waste of time.

is adjusting the drag link something i can do at home and gauge by feel?

i spoke to pedders, guy told me from what im saying he doesn't think caster. he said wheel alignment and check the numbers and go form there, but also said fix will likely be offset kingpin bearnings $$$$

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireblade

if i use genuine bushes then the caster will be un-changed from what is is now.
i understand drag link will only control the centering of the steering wheel
if the wheel is wanting to turn to 11 o'clock without me holding it then a wheel alignment might be what i need.
if i get a adjustable drag link and rtc dampener i might be able to make it all good. feel like a wheel alignment is a wast of money. hate taking the car to other people for work and i always leave thinking it was a waste of time.

is adjusting the drag link something i can do at home and gauge by feel?

i spoke to pedders, guy told me from what im saying he doesn't think caster. he said wheel alignment and check the numbers and go form there, but also said fix will likely be offset kingpin bearnings $$$$

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Rtc dampers are crap. If the wheel is being pulled to the 11 o'clock position then it will likely be due to the lift.

Wheel allignments are never a waste of money when you get the figures on paper. What ends up being a waste of money is believing an allignment is a waste of money and the trying to diagnose an issue by just guessing and throwing parts at it. Very much like an rtc damper, which is a bandaid fix that you are seemingly happy to waste money on and more expensive than a wheel allignment that you think is a waste of money.

Be weary of offset kingpin bearnings, the race is concentric and the thinner area can and has failed prematurely. Also, installing an offset bearing (in the top for instance) will damage the other bearing in time as those bearings are no longer running square and true on their own race.

Wot he said X2 ^^^^

Cure the problem, don't treat the sympton... always ends in tears in the longer term

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bidja

In your opinion, for 2" lift why not caster correction bushes?

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They wear faster than the proper standard bush due the centre of the bush being not centre there for having more rubber on one side and less on the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mudski

They wear faster than the proper standard bush due the centre of the bush being not centre there for having more rubber on one side and less on the other.

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For me no issue to date, used same set now for 100,000ks, do lots of dirt/gravel/corrugations and no visible evidence of wear, maybe bush material selection - All good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bidja

For me no issue to date, used same set now for 100,000ks, do lots of dirt/gravel/corrugations and no visible evidence of wear, maybe bush material selection - All good.

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I’ll eat my words then mate. Haha. I was just going by what others have reported as I have and will only ever use oem bushes.


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alright i will take the advise on wheel alignment before spending money on anything else. once i get the print out i will go from there.
this steering issue will go on the back burner for a month while i get a redarc pyro & boost gauge.

thanks for all the info

Attachment 76891

So these were my wheel alignment resaults
They said the toe was out and adjusted it the parallel
I thought the toe was meant to slightly in to help it track straight?
And looking at the print out it says specs a +0.3 and they put it to 0.0

I’m not fining the pull to the left worse and I don’t think it’s in my head but who know haha.

I also see my caster is almost 0 I’ve read a lot and seems caster should be around +3 to +4 degrees
I’m not sure of the lift I have as it was fitted before buying the car but I’ve always thought it was 2inch and recently I fitted 15mm spacers to the top of the front coils.

So I originally thought I needed 2degree caster bushes but now I’m thinking I need at least 3degree bushes and to get more I can’t use bushes alone.
I value any input people have thanks

If not happy with result take it back. Alos, It is up to them to decide what caster correction needed. Maybe if not happy find someone more competent.

Think only 2-3 deg caster correction bushes available for max 3" lift, or then use drop boxes eg for example:

https://www.superiorengineering.com....rch=drop%20box

With lift measurement may be able to help out. Mine 08 Wag with 2" but carries a bit of wt. Give me your measurement from under guard arch to wheel center x 4 or to the bottom of rim bead/lip and dia of rim at that lip point and I will do lift comparison for you as reference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bidja

If not happy with result take it back. Alos, It is up to them to decide what caster correction needed. Maybe if not happy find someone more competent.

Think only 2-3 deg caster correction bushes available for max 3" lift, or then use drop boxes eg for example:

https://www.superiorengineering.com....rch=drop%20box

With lift measurement may be able to help out. Mine 08 Wag with 2" but carries a bit of wt. Give me your measurement from under guard arch to wheel center x 4 or to the bottom of rim bead/lip and dia of rim at that lip point and I will do lift comparison for you as reference.

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Thank I will measure soon, I can’t take it back as they were in a different town. I like in a small town and there’s only one wheel alligner and he’s no good so I went out of town.
I didn’t like the lack of knowledge I got from the guy there either.
I asked “so I should get some caster added to correct the pulling to the lift” their response “ we adjusted your toe in so the wheels are now perfectly straight should be all good now”

The didn’t even understand what I was saying and obviously they didn’t do a before and after Drive. Least is was only $44 trade discount. Lesson learned I’ll give another place a go next time but from all I’ve read caster bushes are likely to be needed.
I’ll measure those specs and let you know

Rhf 59cm
Lhf 59cm
LHR 59cm
Rhr 59cm

That’s measured from the underside of the wheel arch to the centre of the hub.

So some history briefly
It has efs lift 2 or 3 inch I don’t know for sure
2008 wagon
Factory rear bumper
Genuine steel bull bar with arb brush bars and side steps
Dual battery under the bonnet on the left side maybe why it’s drooped? I doubt it
Alloy roof cage with kings awning on the left round this is causing droop on lhf
Oh and 5mm coil spacer in the rear upper
And 15mm spacers on the front coils

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireblade

Rhf 59cm
Lhf 59cm
LHR 59cm
Rhr 59cm

That’s measured from the underside of the wheel arch to the centre of the hub.

So some history briefly
It has efs lift 2 or 3 inch I don’t know for sure
2008 wagon
Factory rear bumper
Genuine steel bull bar with arb brush bars and side steps
Dual battery under the bonnet on the left side maybe why it’s drooped? I doubt it
Alloy roof cage with kings awning on the left round this is causing droop on lhf
Oh and 5mm coil spacer in the rear upper
And 15mm spacers on the front coils

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No Way is the roof rack and Awning causing Any change to the way the car sits! If it sags to the left that is a little unusual as mostly they sage to the right due to the constant weight of the driver and the Sub Tank.

Has the car always sagged to the left? your front springs may be around the wrong way.

It’s odd when I first measured the lhf was 58cm and that what was making me say is low.
But I went back and measured and they all read same now 59cm honestly the first time I was probably hust being careless.

I’m confident now it’s sitting well. Curious to know how my number compare to others so I have an idea what lift I’ve got. Also would like advice on either 2 or 3 degree caster bushes some say 3degree would hurt off road flex but feel like the numbers call for them

OK recon U have 2" lift coils, Looking @ front 590-15(spacers) = 575 mm. Mine with Dobinson 2" lift coils measure 570mm but winch fitted, steel 3/4 ARB steel rack and ARB steel side rails with steps. Dobinson state that there 2" coils with winch gives lift 40mm. Don't know about using spacers rather do with correct coils..

Rear runs level with front but with air bags @ 8psi, but have draws and rear bar(90kg) hanging out back. Deflated sits 10mm lower which one would expect with the extra load out back..It is the set up that suits me for ride and to handle as I always run level with airbag adjustment.

With caster correction, understand rule of thumb is 1 deg / inch of lift is required, but stock tolerance is +/- 1 deg. Some get away with doing nothing. I had mine set up by competent shop (not a tyre joint) and they corrected with 2 deg bushes. Thought that caster correction prevented car from wandering not just pulling to the left. Mine was OK even before castor correction to drive. Never had an alignment or steering problem since new.

Love the info bidja
So I’ve got around 2 and a half lift in the front including the spacers then.
I’d be happy to go 2degree bushes then.
I’d be doing the bush install by self wish me luck haha

Attachment 76898

just wanted to share this, the caster specs say minimum 3 degrees i have 0.08 & 0.14 according to the wheel alignment
ive settled for 2 degree bushes (rubber)

reasons are because rubber is better off road while i dont do alot i still want some ability without hindrance
and 2 degree is also better than 3 degree bushes for off roading because it doesnt hinder as much as 3 degree bushes.

at the end of the day these caster bushes are going to effect flex iv been told but again im not a serious off roader.

so my specs will be bellow the spec of 3 degree but im hoping itll be un noticable and 2 degree should help the car hold a straight line.
i will continue to update on how i go with this in the hopes to help others and get other advise .
thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireblade

Attachment 76898

just wanted to share this, the caster specs say minimum 3 degrees i have 0.08 & 0.14 according to the wheel alignment
ive settled for 2 degree bushes (rubber)

reasons are because rubber is better off road while i dont do alot i still want some ability without hindrance
and 2 degree is also better than 3 degree bushes for off roading because it doesnt hinder as much as 3 degree bushes.

at the end of the day these caster bushes are going to effect flex iv been told but again im not a serious off roader.

so my specs will be bellow the spec of 3 degree but im hoping itll be un noticable and 2 degree should help the car hold a straight line.
i will continue to update on how i go with this in the hopes to help others and get other advise .
thanks

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It's going to be better than it was thats for sure. But It will still be crappy because you still wont have enough castor. You may not notice it and think its acceptable until you ride in/drive one where the castor is bang on. Then you'll understand.

The nissan front end it very sensitive and will have odd characteristics unless its geometries are in spec. (The infamous patrol wheel wobble comes to mind) it is best to the castor bang on, as this is also going to effect front diff pinion angle and kingpin inclination.

Edit. To put it into perspective you want to have 2 degrees castor, 1.5 degrees less castor than the stated ideal (3.5 degrees) on system with 1 degree of tolerance. That places your vehicle 150% out of stated ideal spec, 100% completely out of spec

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

It's going to be better than it was thats for sure. But It will still be crappy because you still wont have enough castor. You may not notice it and think its acceptable until you ride in/drive one where the castor is bang on. Then you'll understand.

The nissan front end it very sensitive and will have odd characteristics unless its geometries are in spec. (The infamous patrol wheel wobble comes to mind) it is best to the castor bang on, as this is also going to effect front diff pinion angle and kingpin inclination.

Edit. To put it into perspective you want to have 2 degrees castor, 1.5 degrees less castor than the stated ideal (3.5 degrees) on system with 1 degree of tolerance. That places your vehicle 150% out of stated ideal spec, 100% completely out of spec

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other than 2-3 degree caster correction bushes i dont know what my options are. cast correction arms come to mind but that gets into big $$$.
mayby drop boxes? to correct cast im not sure if these do that and if so to what degree. also a more expensive option to bushes.

let me know what i can do to go from 0 degrees to somewhere between 3-4 degrees
*bushes
*drop boxes
*carster correct arms

All of the above will do that. Including castor plates.

Drop boxes are the #1 pick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

All of the above will do that. Including castor plates.

Drop boxes are the #1 pick

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i did look into drop boxes and couldnt see anywhere about how much caster the change.
https://www.roadrunneroffroad.com.au...s-full-bolt-in
https://www.performancesuspension.co...pat-002-p.html
https://www.superiorengineering.com....rol-gqgu-17231

they all say 3-5" lift. i have 2" plus 15mm spring spacers.
i could always just fit them and then get another wheel enlightenment and see what the specs read. but id hate to do all that and have like 5 degree caster and have too much caster

Guess U put the 15mm spacers in the front to level out veh (front to rear), unladen in the back?

From calculation your 2" spring are not showing signs of sage from your given measurements. It is your choice, I would rather have vehicle sitting up at rear by say 10-15mm unladened to allow for when you load up (with coils only).

Prior to fitting front 15mm spacers, apart from the steering wheel not being in 12 o'clock position, how did it steer/drive?
Note: my steering wheel sits at 11 o'clock when driving in straight line (post 2" lift), just does not bother me that much.

Your chasing caster correction exacerbated by the 15mm front spacers, that might end up costing you $$s for very little gain. Taking into account, you state "not a serious off roader", IMO remove the front spacers, unless you are going to hang significant extra weight off the front and a few extra dollars get a shop to do a wheel alignment and give them to correct caster with bushes. Difficult when you do not have a lot of shop choice. On the other hand, did read you can get alignment for $40 odd, so IMO, remove spacers, do alignment and then fit bushes yourself (maybe 2 Deg) and go do another alignment to see result.

I run 2" lift with 33" tyres and does fine on the tracks. Did run OEM stock size tyres for past 9 yrs before 33s (same driving but yes now a bit more diff clearance).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bidja

Guess U put the 15mm spacers in the front to level out veh (front to rear), unladen in the back?

From calculation your 2" spring are not showing signs of sage from your given measurements. It is your choice, I would rather have vehicle sitting up at rear by say 10-15mm unladened to allow for when you load up (with coils only).

Prior to fitting front 15mm spacers, apart from the steering wheel not being in 12 o'clock position, how did it steer/drive?
Note: my steering wheel sits at 11 o'clock when driving in straight line (post 2" lift), just does not bother me that much.

Your chasing caster correction exacerbated by the 15mm front spacers, that might end up costing you $$s for very little gain. Taking into account, you state "not a serious off roader", IMO remove the front spacers, unless you are going to hang significant extra weight off the front and a few extra dollars get a shop to do a wheel alignment and give them to correct caster with bushes. Difficult when you do not have a lot of shop choice. On the other hand, did read you can get alignment for $40 odd, so IMO, remove spacers, do alignment and then fit bushes yourself (maybe 2 Deg) and go do another alignment to see result.

I run 2" lift with 33" tyres and does fine on the tracks. Did run OEM stock size tyres for past 9 yrs before 33s (same driving but yes now a bit more diff clearance).

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yeh i did put spacers in the front to balance the car when its not loaded.
it use the drive straight with the wheel pointed at 1oclock then brought a adjustable drag link and its now about 1cm shorted and the steering is and 12oclock when going straight.
i didnt notice any real different after fitting the spacers.

im keen to get into some more 4wd and really want to go cape york next year. probably solo and was going to get a winch to so i was thinking spacers would be good to offset the weight from the winch.

i really value the advise given here.
for now ill fit 2degree bushes and tehn see how the drive feels and then for curiousity ill remove the spring pads in the front and use standard 5mm ones and see if its beeter again.
ill also get a wheel allighment done with the bushes installed the compare the readings. dont know if ill get the wheel allighnemtn with the 5mm or 15mm spaced though i will see how the car feels.
if my specs are still way out i might go standard bushes with 3-5"drop boxes and see how that goes.

ive read drop boxes are 4 degree caster so im wondering if i can use bushes to get some negative caster in there to get close to 3.5degree caster.
ill see how the bushes go and feel first. my aim isnt to waste money or time. and i know its not just about getting number spot on its about the real world usage of it.
my aim is the reduce the sharply left pull i have

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireblade

for now ill fit 2degree bushes and tehn see how the drive feels and then for curiousity ill remove the spring pads in the front and use standard 5mm ones and see if its beeter again.
ill also get a wheel allighment done with the bushes installed the compare the readings. dont know if ill get the wheel allighnemtn with the 5mm or 15mm spaced though i will see how the car feels.

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Suggest, after each change you do, especially yourself, get whl alignment done to assist in trouble shooting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bidja

Suggest, after each change you do, especially yourself, get whl alignment done to assist in trouble shooting.

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yeah that would be best, ive been reading about drop boxes and appears that they are mainly for 4" lift and ther offer 4degees caster.
might be possible to to drop boxes then id have +4 degree caster them use 25mm spacers on coils instead of 15mm and that might then get me about 3.5 to 4 degrees caster. (id have to have standard radias arm caster bushes)
just thinking out loud, i probably wont go this way.

Too many variations happening. IMO, no winch yet so:

Take out front 15mm spacers, do whl alignment.
Fit your 2 deg bushes (if doing your self and if needed), do whl alignment.
See what you end up with go from there.

Might be your best option.

so im half way through doing the radius arm bushes, wow. easy enough job really.
the old bushes came out easy but installing new ones abit harder.

doing all this with two axle stands and one jack, no press.

if i ever do this again id want a press, two more axle stands and a second jack haha.

well all done, and still pulls left ill start a new thread hope i get some more views