Steering wheel natural position changed and sudden death wobbles

Hey guys, hope you're all doing well.

Just came back from KI with the family and my steering wheel natural position has changed by at least 90+ degrees. I have an 89, td42 maverick that I bought from a guy who couldn't drive it anymore.
Bit of background:
He put a new 4" lift kit into the stock mav before his accident. The car had been sitting in his front yard for a year or two, so the lift is relatively new and suspension rigid.
The steering wheel was fine when I bought it a month ago, however now it has rotated around by 90 degrees.
Also, when traveling at speed and hit a minor road bump, sudden, violent death wobbles kick in (75+kmph) when I reduce my speed to below 70kmph it stops and I can bring it back to the speed limit.
This doesn't happen all the time and there is no set speed that it occurs. I also don't have constant wobbles, its only sudden.
The RAA check that I got on it stated that the drag link joint at pitman arm has excessive movement and there is a lot of free play in the steering wheel and wandering on the road, could this attribute to the wobbles and change in wheel position?

I have done some research and another thread (http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/suspe...ddenly-173682/) stated that the panhard bushes are the reason for the sudden, out of control death wobbles. however, I am no mechanic and have no idea how to check it.
The wobbles I'm okay with as I don't do much high speed stuff, moreso the steering.
So my real question is, what could cause the steering wheel to do this and what would be causing the sudden wobbles?
Any help would be appreciated.

can you tell me what Caster Correction was added when the 4" lift was installed? your description sounds like Caster Correction issues to me.

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Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD

can you tell me what Caster Correction was added when the 4" lift was installed? your description sounds like Caster Correction issues to me.

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I wish I could sorry, the previous owner gave me the receipt but I have no idea was correction was used. Ill have a good look at the receipt and get back to you.
Is there any way of checking this?

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Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD

can you tell me what Caster Correction was added when the 4" lift was installed? your description sounds like Caster Correction issues to me.

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Okay so I checked the car and the receipt, it had drop boxes put in for the correction (I'm assuming that is a form of castor correction)

Yes it is. Id put in for a wheel alignment and ask them to check your caster and toe in. Start there.

Have you go pics underneath the car to confirm drop boxes

I’d be replacing that drag link & the pitman arm if it’s worn before anything thing if it states on the report there’s excessive movement in them .

Wot Sprock said X 2

Fix what you know is wrong ASAP and then work out what else needs doing
The wear etc in the linkage will almost definitely be 'hiding' other issues at the moment

If the steering wheel has rotated 90degrees, without you doing anything, and was fine before. I would assume it could only be one of four things. The drag link is bent like a banana, the steering coupling is torn, the steering wheel has slipped on column or the pitman arm has moved on the steering box.

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Originally Posted by mudski

If the steering wheel has rotated 90degrees, without you doing anything, and was fine before. I would assume it could only be one of four things. The drag link is bent like a banana, the steering coupling is torn, the steering wheel has slipped on column or the pitman arm has moved on the steering box.

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Whatever the cause it's a potentially dangerous situation which needs the attention of someone familiar with such things. It's not just steering wobble, it's what may or may not occur in an emergency situation. You or someone else could die, or risk spending the rest of your life wishing you had.

Did you hit anything hard ... a big rut perhaps, as it seems like you have bent something like the drag link, or something has partially let go.

Get underneath the front and check all the steering components, and if you are not sure what you are looking at, post up a picture, and someone will assist.

It certainly needs looking at as soon as you can

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD

Yes it is. Id put in for a wheel alignment and ask them to check your caster and toe in. Start there.

Have you go pics underneath the car to confirm drop boxes

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Ill upload some photos of the underneath.

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Originally Posted by happygu

Did you hit anything hard ... a big rut perhaps, as it seems like you have bent something like the drag link, or something has partially let go.

Get underneath the front and check all the steering components, and if you are not sure what you are looking at, post up a picture, and someone will assist.

It certainly needs looking at as soon as you can

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We did go over some big rocks and a rut or two. I am almost tempted to think that the wheel turned because of the wobble.

This is my first attempt at photo uploads on here to bear with me. I am happy to take more photos if needed.
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It would be extremely unlikely for the steering wheel to move because of a wobble, as then that would mean that something is really loose underneath and is really dangerous.

The idea with steering and steering components, is that they are able to be locked into position by fixings like large bolts / nuts which exert a massive clamping force to make sure that things stay in optimum alignment.

Patrols are even more rigid than that, in that things like the drag link and camber are pretty much fixed in position by mostly non-adjustable fittings. The only things that can really be changed in the front end of a standard Patrol is toe in/out, tracking and castor.

It is a little bit tough to pick from the pictures, but it seems like the draglink is straight. The Adjustable Panhard rod looks like it had been installed upside down, but that in itself wont be the cause.

Point one of the front wheels straight .. get out and check .... are they both straight. If not, check track rod behind the diff, and ball joints.

Get someone to rock the steering wheel from side to side, and check to see if any ball joints are moving/rocking/clunking independently of the arm it is connected to. A steering component and its connecting arm should move totally together. Check Pitman Arm, Steering Box Arm, Panhard Bushes, Ball Joints, etc. A pry bar can help with that too

Grab a piece if string - check wheelbase from back wheel to front - check centre of wheel to centre of wheel on each side, and the piece of string should be the same length on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Sofes

We did go over some big rocks and a rut or two. I am almost tempted to think that the wheel turned because of the wobble.

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Not 90 degrees though. I have an adjustable drag link, this is where I can centre my steering wheel. So shortening or lengthening the drag link will alter the centre point of the steering wheel. To move the steering wheel 90 degrees, I'd have to adjust the drag link length about 15-20mm for this to happen I'd say.
Going by the pics, your drag link is straight. so is the tie rod. Something doesn't add up.

You have two stuffed ball joints by the look of it .

Way I found my panhard bushes were the problem was to get someone on the steering wheel turning left to right constantly just a frag more than the free play , then checked to see what was moving when it shouldn't be .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by happygu

It would be extremely unlikely for the steering wheel to move because of a wobble, as then that would mean that something is really loose underneath and is really dangerous.

The idea with steering and steering components, is that they are able to be locked into position by fixings like large bolts / nuts which exert a massive clamping force to make sure that things stay in optimum alignment.

Patrols are even more rigid than that, in that things like the drag link and camber are pretty much fixed in position by mostly non-adjustable fittings. The only things that can really be changed in the front end of a standard Patrol is toe in/out, tracking and castor.

It is a little bit tough to pick from the pictures, but it seems like the draglink is straight. The Adjustable Panhard rod looks like it had been installed upside down, but that in itself wont be the cause.

Point one of the front wheels straight .. get out and check .... are they both straight. If not, check track rod behind the diff, and ball joints.

Get someone to rock the steering wheel from side to side, and check to see if any ball joints are moving/rocking/clunking independently of the arm it is connected to. A steering component and its connecting arm should move totally together. Check Pitman Arm, Steering Box Arm, Panhard Bushes, Ball Joints, etc. A pry bar can help with that too

Grab a piece if string - check wheelbase from back wheel to front - check centre of wheel to centre of wheel on each side, and the piece of string should be the same length on both sides.

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Ill be taking it to a mechanic next week to suss out, I'm heading to a mates soon and I'll check it all there and compare his gq w/ 4" lift to mine.

I got a wheel alignment done yesterday and they said that they couldn't get the drivers side wheel to move at all. As in the wheels are currently in a toe-in position and out by 4mm if that makes sense.
On the bright side the steering wheel is now straight!
I only just noticed that the drivers side wheel is out of the flares by about 10-15mm and the passenger is well inside the flare. Maybe they didn't adjust the panhard?

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Originally Posted by Sofes

I got a wheel alignment done yesterday and they said that they couldn't get the drivers side wheel to move at all. As in the wheels are currently in a toe-in position and out by 4mm if that makes sense.
On the bright side the steering wheel is now straight!
I only just noticed that the drivers side wheel is out of the flares by about 10-15mm and the passenger is well inside the flare. Maybe they didn't adjust the panhard?

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How did they do a proper allignment if they couldnt move a wheel. More to point how did they get the steering straight without you actually having an adjustable drag link?
Just pull the steering wheel off and put it back on straight? If that's the case that's a very half arsed way of doing things and you'll now have a better turning circle in 1 direction than the other.
I'd hit the roof if someone pulled that shit on mine.

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

How did they do a proper allignment if they couldnt move a wheel. More to point how did they get the steering straight without you actually having an adjustable drag link?
Just pull the steering wheel off and put it back on straight? If that's the case that's a very half arsed way of doing things and you'll now have a better turning circle in 1 direction than the other.
I'd hit the roof if someone pulled that shit on mine.

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I honestly have no idea, its what they told me. But even if I was to go back, I'd be unsure of what to say exactly. The car now turns a lot better to the right than it does the left lol.
I'll have to do some more research as I think the panhard bushes are fine considering the lift is only 8000kms old.

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Originally Posted by Sofes

I honestly have no idea, its what they told me. But even if I was to go back, I'd be unsure of what to say exactly. The car now turns a lot better to the right than it does the left lol.
I'll have to do some more research as I think the panhard bushes are fine considering the lift is only 8000kms old.

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That's not on. That is poor quality work.
First.
Fix what is already known to be wrong. Tie rod ends, leaking seal on the passenger side front, re-centre the steering etc. No ifs, buts or maybes. Then basic maintenance inspections and repairs if needed.

Second. After known issues have been rectified.
Put it on an alligning machine and get a readout of your geometries. Get it on paper and get it handed to you. No ifs, buts or maybes. Then get the manual from this very forum and cross reference your figures with ones stated in the factory manual.

Third
Do steps 1 and 2. Don't just start replacing stuff just because someone else did. You'll end up chasing your tail, hemorrhaging money on half arse repairs and bandaid fixes (like your steering wheel) and getting frustrated with an apparently 'incurable' case of the wobbles.

Fourth.
Once you have done the basic maintenance, whatever repairs currently needed , have the readout and assessed it. Then logically investigate the issue.

For the record, long winded 'incurable steering wobble threads annoy me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

That's not on. That is poor quality work.
First.
Fix what is already known to be wrong. Tie rod ends, leaking seal on the passenger side front, re-centre the steering etc. No ifs, buts or maybes. Then basic maintenance inspections and repairs if needed.

Second. After known issues have been rectified.
Put it on an alligning machine and get a readout of your geometries. Get it on paper and get it handed to you. No ifs, buts or maybes. Then get the manual from this very forum and cross reference your figures with ones stated in the factory manual.

Third
Do steps 1 and 2. Don't just start replacing stuff just because someone else did. You'll end up chasing your tail, hemorrhaging money on half arse repairs and bandaid fixes (like your steering wheel) and getting frustrated with an apparently 'incurable' case of the wobbles.

Fourth.
Once you have done the basic maintenance, whatever repairs currently needed , have the readout and assessed it. Then logically investigate the issue.

For the record, long winded 'incurable steering wobble threads annoy me.

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Thanks for that step-by-step process! That's exactly what I need to go about it.
By leaking seal on the passenger side do you mean the swivel hubs?
Ill get the draglink and pitman arm checked/replaced. Is it worth replacing the current draglink/steering arm with an adjustable one?

Ill hopefully sell my surf ski this week so I'll have some money to spend on sorting this out.
Thanks so much!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sofes

Thanks for that step-by-step process! That's exactly what I need to go about it.
By leaking seal on the passenger side do you mean the swivel hubs?
Ill get the draglink and pitman arm checked/replaced. Is it worth replacing the current draglink/steering arm with an adjustable one?

Ill hopefully sell my surf ski this week so I'll have some money to spend on sorting this out.
Thanks so much!

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Yes. The draglink should have been replaced with the lift

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

Yes. The draglink should have been replaced with the lift

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Doesn't appear to have been replaced with the lift, only the panhard.
Ill get an adjustable one since that will make life better in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sofes

By leaking seal on the passenger side do you mean the swivel hubs?
Ill get the draglink and pitman arm checked/replaced. Is it worth replacing the current draglink/steering arm with an adjustable one?

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The leaking seal is the in axle seal. Which stops diff oil from leaking out and into the swivel hub. Like your left side has done. If money permits, replace the swivel hub seal too. wont need to replace the pitman arm I'd say. Unless its physically broken. Get an adjustable drag link, then you can adjust it to centre you steering wheel, the correct way.

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Originally Posted by mudski

The leaking seal is the in axle seal. Which stops diff oil from leaking out and into the swivel hub. Like your left side has done. If money permits, replace the swivel hub seal too. wont need to replace the pitman arm I'd say. Unless its physically broken. Get an adjustable drag link, then you can adjust it to centre you steering wheel, the correct way.

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That's something I know how to do! Haha.
Can you recommend any good drag links? Is it easy to install yourself or should I get the mechanic to install/fit etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy

How did they do a proper allignment if they couldnt move a wheel. More to point how did they get the steering straight without you actually having an adjustable drag link?
Just pull the steering wheel off and put it back on straight? If that's the case that's a very half arsed way of doing things and you'll now have a better turning circle in 1 direction than the other.
I'd hit the roof if someone pulled that shit on mine.

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You’d be amazed how many places take the steering wheel off & put it on straight ! -& you’re right I’d flip my shit if that was done to mine