4WD no more

Hi all,

I have lost drive to both front wheels. Drive to the rear wheels in both high and low range seem fine. There was/is no clunking or strange noises coming from the front end when in 4WD.

I have an auto locker fitted in the front diff and have the standard factory auto hubs that have had the manual conversion done to them.

If I turn the front wheels by hand with the hub locked in, the front tail shaft doesn't turn.

I have removed both hubs and I cannot see any physical damage with them.

I marked the end of the axle, refitted the hub and with the hub in the locked position rotated the wheel 180. I then removed the hub and the axle was still in the same position it hadn't rotated.

If I spin the front tail shaft by hand both front axles rotate. This was done one wheel at a time.

I think my problem lies with both front hubs. What do you think? am I going about checking this correctly? My concern is my checks are being done under no load.

Is there something else I should be doing?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Can you still spin the front tailshaft with 4wd selected and the handbrake on?

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Originally Posted by nissannewby

Can you still spin the front tailshaft with 4wd selected and the handbrake on?

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No the tail shaft is locked when 4wd is selected.

Ok well it is sounding like the hubs are the issue. Although sttange for them to both go at the same time. Have you had any work done recently on the front end?

The last work done on the front end was converting the hubs. It's due to have the wheel bearings done but that hasn't been done yet.

I'm wondering if one hub was already gone and I didn't realise as the locker would keep drive to the other wheel??

Maybe. It easier enough for you to swap the hubs from side to side?

Probably wont do anything if they are stuffed I suppose.

A mate had after market hubs installed, they were the wrong ones for his car.
They only just engaged so when tested by the installer appeared OK, but under load they slipped and of course had no drive.
Unfortunately he found out on a 4WD hill in the Kimberly, no funny at all!

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Originally Posted by nissannewby

Maybe. It easier enough for you to swap the hubs from side to side?

Probably wont do anything if they are stuffed I suppose.

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It's easy enough to try.

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Originally Posted by macca

A mate had after market hubs installed, they were the wrong ones for his car.
They only just engaged so when tested by the installer appeared OK, but under load they slipped and of course had no drive.
Unfortunately he found out on a 4WD hill in the Kimberly, no funny at all!

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That always the way, when you need something the most is when it fails. I was trying to do a hill climb out at the Springs 4wd park.

Where was the invite....... :p

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Originally Posted by Yendor

snip...

I'm wondering if one hub was already gone and I didn't realise as the locker would keep drive to the other wheel??

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If it is both hubs then that is very likely.

What are the symptoms if the pins in an Auto Locker fail?
In the Lokka the pins have been known to break
I've had 3 now but never had a failure myself.

Will the vehicle lose all front drive or will the locker 'revert' to open diff... anyone?

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Originally Posted by nissannewby

Where was the invite....... :p

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I'm always keen to go for a wheel, I only have one wheel drive at the moment :)

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Originally Posted by the evil twin

If it is both hubs then that is very likely.

What are the symptoms if the pins in an Auto Locker fail?
In the Lokka the pins have been known to break
I've had 3 now but never had a failure myself.

Will the vehicle lose all front drive or will the locker 'revert' to open diff... anyone?

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Yeah mate, I don't know. I have just done basic check with the little understanding I have of how it all works.

I have just jacked up the rear wheels and with the vehicle running in H4 first gear, both front wheels on the ground and one hub removed at a time with the other hub being locked.

Both axle rotated and I was unable to stop the rotation with my hand and a rag.

At no stage did it look like the front wheels were going to drive the vehicle.

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Originally Posted by Yendor

Yeah mate, I don't know. I have just done basic check with the little understanding I have of how it all works.

I have just jacked up the rear wheels and with the vehicle running in H4 first gear, both front wheels on the ground and one hub removed at a time with the other hub being locked.

Both axle rotated and I was unable to stop the rotation with my hand and a rag.

At no stage did it look like the front wheels were going to drive the vehicle.

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That would mean must be the Locker/Diff to me, maybe Transfer Case/Drive, but mekanikle stuff is as far away from my field of expertise as Ghandi was from his first shit

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Originally Posted by the evil twin

That would mean must be the Locker/Diff to me, maybe Transfer Case/Drive, but mekanikle stuff is as far away from my field of expertise as Ghandi was from his first shit

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Bugger…. to me it confirms the hubs. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part.

I think it's time for a beer.

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Originally Posted by Yendor

Bugger…. to me it confirms the hubs. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part.

I think it's time for a beer.

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ROFL... well that means either that one of us is right or we are both wrong... 'cept for the beer... that is never wrong

I had the exact same issue two weeks ago when i rebuolt thefront end. One of the concerted auto hubs had taken water so i removed the hub, and removed the centre gear section of the locking hub. Cleaned it out, regreased it and put it back in. Then i had no 4wd.
I removed the hub and when i put the centre gear part back in i didnt line up the two tabs on the gear to the hub. So it wouldn't lock in.
Not sure if this helps but theres really not much to the auto hubs.

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

Just thought of something else. Have you packed the free wheeling hubs with grease? Too much and the gear won't move over the axle enough to engage.

edit;
The engaging ring is spring backed so when locked it might sit on top of the opposing ring until the axle/wheel turns allowing it to line up and push into place.

If the cavity where the axle goes is full of grease it wont let the rings engage as the grease wont compress or move to allow the movement required.

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Originally Posted by mudski

I had the exact same issue two weeks ago when i rebuolt thefront end. One of the concerted auto hubs had taken water so i removed the hub, and removed the centre gear section of the locking hub. Cleaned it out, regreased it and put it back in. Then i had no 4wd.
I removed the hub and when i put the centre gear part back in i didnt line up the two tabs on the gear to the hub. So it wouldn't lock in.
Not sure if this helps but theres really not much to the auto hubs.

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

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I haven't pull the hubs apart yet. I might do that and see if I can see something. How do they come apart?

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Originally Posted by macca

Just thought of something else. Have you packed the free wheeling hubs with grease? Too much and the gear won't move over the axle enough to engage.

edit;
The engaging ring is spring backed so when locked it might sit on top of the opposing ring until the axle/wheel turns allowing it to line up and push into place.

If the cavity where the axle goes is full of grease it wont let the rings engage as the grease wont compress or move to allow the movement required.

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The grease is fine. When locking the hubs manually they use to have a springy type feel and then like pop when in lock, they don't have that now. I think I will try pulling them apart when I get the chance.

If the axles are turning with the hub off, you are getting drive to that point. I'd say hubs for sure. Have a mate with a GU you could swap them over and check?

I would also guess the hubs, especially if they were the last thing you touched.....

You should be able to jack up the front in 2wd, spin the front tailshaft to feel the resistance of the shaft with hubs unlocked under free wheel, then lock one hub at a time as you have a diff lock, and spin the front tailshaft again, and watch the front wheels turn or not turn and feel the resistance increase.

If it is both hubs as suspected, then you will get nothing .... which isn't the end of it as it then could then be hubs, diff or transfer case. If it does spin the wheels, then I guess it will point back to the transfer case.

Alternatively, you could place the vehicle on a hoist, and then do something similar with the transfer locked and unlocked to see the front tailshaft turning or not turning.

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Originally Posted by Yendor

I haven't pull the hubs apart yet. I might do that and see if I can see something. How do they come apart?

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With the auto plate removed the entire centre gear section pretty much falls out. Most times they are pretty difficult to remove though but they do come out. When its out you will see a metal cage that holds the gear and spring together. On the bottom section of this cage is two tabs. In the housing you will see two cut outs, these two tabs are supposed to be lined up with these cut outs and locked in. From memory, in the housing you will see the wall of the housing is splined too. But there is a gap in the spline opposite to each other, I think the cut outs in the bottom section need to be lined up with the gap in the spline. This can be done by turning the auto > lock section on the housing.

An easy way to test the hub is when its off the internal gear that sits on the axle shaft should spin free when in the auto position. Then when you lock it it should not move.
This is the only pic I have of the hub apart. You can see the centre gear with the cage on it and spring in between the two. This entire part does come out like I said, but I have found its a very snug fit so it needs to come out pretty much dead straight.
The other bits you see are the left overs from the auto to manual conversion.

Attachment 66781

My problem was with both hubs.

I had a hard time removing the centre gear section until someone suggested to turn the hub upside down and bang it on the bench a couple of times and then it just fell out.

I found that one of the tabs on each cage was bent and twisted and had also chewed out the section in the housing that the tabs are suppose to slide behind when manually locking the hub.

I straightened the tabs and reassembled the hubs. After refitting them to the vehicle I found that they only locked and unlocked a couple of times before failing again.

So I installed a set of AVM aftermarket manual locking hubs.

I wonder if this problem occurred because the auto locking plate was removed. It appears the auto locking plate holds the inner gear section down in the hub and without it the inner gear section can slide up allowing the tabs to foul when trying to lock the hubs. Then again my hubs were playing up before that's why I did the mod. So maybe they were already stuffed??

Thank you to all that helped me with this.

I would say already stuffed. My hubs have had the plate out for two years with no issue.
With the AVM hubs i would remove the outer tapered screws and apply some never seize to the tapered section. As dirt gets behind the taper and locks the screw in and you will have a bugger of a time to gt them out.

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Possibly, But I would recommend anyone doing this mod to remove the inner gear section and use some bearing loctite. Because that the only thing thats holding the inner gear in place.

Yeah, I've read all the negatives about using the AVM hubs and have done this.

good to see you got it sorted!

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Originally Posted by Yendor

If I spin the front tail shaft by hand both front axles rotate. This was done one wheel at a time.

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I didn't understand the above test.
Did you mean the locked hubs appear to be working when you turn the front drive shaft(wheels turn when you turn the front driveshaft)?

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Originally Posted by dom14

I didn't understand the above test.
Did you mean the locked hubs appear to be working when you turn the front drive shaft(wheels turn when you turn the front driveshaft)?

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To test if something is broken in the diff, one wheel is jacked and if it spins with force when small drive shaft is spun it is all connected and working.. (hubs locked of course)
With one wheel fixed (say to the ground) and one wheel up the drive has no choice but to go to the lifted wheel..

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Originally Posted by dom14

I didn't understand the above test.
Did you mean the locked hubs appear to be working when you turn the front drive shaft(wheels turn when you turn the front driveshaft)?

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What Kallen said ^^

No I was only getting drive to the axle stub that you can see once a hub is removed.

My concern was there wasn't much load placed on the diff and I wasn't sure if I had an auto locker fault this would show it

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Originally Posted by Yendor

What Kallen said ^^

No I was only getting drive to the axle stub that you can see once a hub is removed.

My concern was there wasn't much load placed on the diff and I wasn't sure if I had an auto locker fault this would show it

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Of course! :), which proves the hub was the issue.