Diff shudder :(

Hello and all the best for the new year.

Advice on another newbie error.

We went to Fraser Island in July. Had a great time driving all over the Island which was a first for me in sand.

When we came off the Island there was a bit of a shudder from the rear of the wagon, a 2002 3ltr Patrol wagon, 230000 ks on the clock at the time.

Went to the car wash and gave it a good clean both on top and underneath to remove any sand and salt water residue.

Still had the shudder in the rear, mainly when turning tightly.

Drove home to Albury and contacted the dealer about the shudder the next day.

They replied that it would be sand built up on part of the drivetrain and that it would vibrate loose and disappear over time.

It did disappear almost completely and I almost thought it was right.

I towed our boat to Bermagui with 2 mates, going up Talbingo under heavy load and again around corners, the shudder returned.

One of my mates who ran his own mechanic shop for 30 years said , whats wrong with the diff.

Too cut the story a bit shorter, I booked the Patrol into the dealer when I got back from fishing, they discovered the rear diff breather had come off, drained the diff oil which was milky in color and said all could be okay.

At the next service I got the diff oil changed again but I still have the shudder under load, towing and tight corners.

1/ Have I done irreparable damage to the LSD in the rear?

2/ If so, do I a/ get it rebuilt, b/ buy a new one, c/ replace it with a locker, either electric or air?

I do not do any extreme 4 wheel driving, it was purchased to tow, having said that it will eventually be a mild touring vehicle towing a van of some sorts.

Guessing I would of done around 2.5 to 3 thousand kilometers with the shudder.

I had the truck serviced before we went, I did not do any daily checks at Fraser, I didnt trust my instincts when the shudder was noted, now I get to pay.

thanks

Doug.

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Originally Posted by anyfin

Hello and all the best for the new year.

Advice on another newbie error.

We went to Fraser Island in July. Had a great time driving all over the Island which was a first for me in sand.

When we came off the Island there was a bit of a shudder from the rear of the wagon, a 2002 3ltr Patrol wagon, 230000 ks on the clock at the time.

Went to the car wash and gave it a good clean both on top and underneath to remove any sand and salt water residue.

Still had the shudder in the rear, mainly when turning tightly.

Drove home to Albury and contacted the dealer about the shudder the next day.

They replied that it would be sand built up on part of the drivetrain and that it would vibrate loose and disappear over time.

It did disappear almost completely and I almost thought it was right.

I towed our boat to Bermagui with 2 mates, going up Talbingo under heavy load and again around corners, the shudder returned.

One of my mates who ran his own mechanic shop for 30 years said , whats wrong with the diff.

Too cut the story a bit shorter, I booked the Patrol into the dealer when I got back from fishing, they discovered the rear diff breather had come off, drained the diff oil which was milky in color and said all could be okay.

At the next service I got the diff oil changed again but I still have the shudder under load, towing and tight corners.

1/ Have I done irreparable damage to the LSD in the rear?

2/ If so, do I a/ get it rebuilt, b/ buy a new one, c/ replace it with a locker, either electric or air?

I do not do any extreme 4 wheel driving, it was purchased to tow, having said that it will eventually be a mild touring vehicle towing a van of some sorts.

Guessing I would of done around 2.5 to 3 thousand kilometers with the shudder.

I had the truck serviced before we went, I did not do any daily checks at Fraser, I didnt trust my instincts when the shudder was noted, now I get to pay.

thanks

Doug.

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If the workshop told you "it's sand built up on the drivetrain & will vibrate loose & disappear " - I wouldn't let them fix my wheel barrow .
If it was mine - personally I'd be getting the diff centre rebuilt cos diff shudders don't get any better .


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I would not take it anywhere near a dealer unless you want to take out a second mortgage. I would find a decent 4wd workshop and ask them to take a look.

I expect you have a H260 rear diff which is the bigger diff. before you spend upto $2000 on a locker or a rebuild I would ask someone to open it up for a look. This would mean taking the third member ( the diff centre) out and clean and inspect it. Before that even I would maybe take it to a diff specialist and ask them to go for a drive with you.

Once stripped you can determine f it's the LSD or the Crown wheel and pinion. If it's the LSD then swapping out for a locker may be viable or finding a second hand LSD might also work. It could be a uni joint?

A Dealer would not get a first look let alone a second look though.

if you get under the patrol can you get any play by trying to move the tailshaft up/down.
Might be a collapsed pinion bearing,

Just thinking wouldn't a pinion bearing be an issue all the time instead of tight corners?
I'm with darren thinking it's possibly the lsd clutch pack.
If it is.. lokka time lol

Take it to Perry at Bullivant Automotive in Griffith Road. They are 4WD specialists and Perry owns a 4.2 GU so he knows Patrols. The other place in town in The CV Joint in Wodonga. They know their stuff as well.

So what was the cause of the shudder? I only ask because I have a 98 GU 4.5 with a 260 diff in it and it does the same thing. If you turn tightly and apply a lot of power it shudders, it typically does it in first gear, if I tow something it does the same but worse. There is no play in the uni joints, the pinion bearing looks fine, there is no whine from the diff so I figure it has to be LSD clutch pack.

Had the same problem on same vehicle. Easily fixed !!!

Changed the diff oil and added double qty of Penrite Limslip additive - no more shudder when hot and/or on turns.

I've just been doing a bit of reading about Patrol lsd. Re..lsd clutch pack shudder. Here's what you do. drain out 500ml~ of oil from your rear diff, add some Nulon engine cleaner (or different brand), drive for 1000klm (doing figure 8s on soft ground from time to time). fully drain and replace with 85w-140 limited slip diff oil. should restore diff.

Strange this. Since putting the new/ second hand centre in, i have noticed a rumble whilst turning and taking off. It will only last not even a metre before its gone... I've changed oils to no avail.

I took the sooks way out and replaced the complete diff center with a genuine Nissan diff center.

Crown wheel & Pinion, LSD & bearings complete.

Dont have time to try different fix scenarios.

Result, shudder and whine gone.

Booked in this Wednesday to get better diff breathers fitted. Oh and its hungry, so I,m going to get it a chip :)

Going with a Torquit chip, hope they are as good as the salesman :)

Probably should get the old diff looked at.

thanks for the heads up and advice.

anyfin
Doug.

How much did that set you back? Have you pulled the lsd apart and had a look? It would be interesting to see what its like.

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$3600 genuine. Havent touched the old one, might get it looked at out of curiosity.

Have a mate with a 2006 3ltrcrd that his wife uses for towing horses.

Went BANG, he has got a second hand motor with 35k on it. Wants to Nads it. I have had a look on your site and may be in touch.

Where would he get a catch can from?

cheers and thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anyfin

$3600 genuine. Havent touched the old one, might get it looked at out of curiosity.

Have a mate with a 2006 3ltrcrd that his wife uses for towing horses.

Went BANG, he has got a second hand motor with 35k on it. Wants to Nads it. I have had a look on your site and may be in touch.

Where would he get a catch can from?

cheers and thanks.

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Before you chip it get some gauges..
Chips imo are a quick road to fail town..
They increase boost and fuel but every engine is different.. so they all react in different ways..
Your egt's may go threw the roof and without gauges you'll be none the wiser..

And get your mate onto it aswell..

Ebay is the easiest place to get a catch can..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anyfin

$3600 genuine. Havent touched the old one, might get it looked at out of curiosity.

Have a mate with a 2006 3ltrcrd that his wife uses for towing horses.

Went BANG, he has got a second hand motor with 35k on it. Wants to Nads it. I have had a look on your site and may be in touch.

Where would he get a catch can from?

cheers and thanks.

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$3600! Yeah wow!

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Originally Posted by abw

I've just been doing a bit of reading about Patrol lsd. Re..lsd clutch pack shudder. Here's what you do. drain out 500ml~ of oil from your rear diff, add some Nulon engine cleaner (or different brand), drive for 1000klm (doing figure 8s on soft ground from time to time). fully drain and replace with 85w-140 limited slip diff oil. should restore diff.

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@abw Have you actually done this....

Would be interested in the end result.

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Naa..not yet. Just some info I picked up on that other forum. I'm not sure if it's okay to provide a link?

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Originally Posted by jay see

@abw Have you actually done this....

Would be interested in the end result.

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It was mentioned in this forum a few years ago. Not sure if the member actually did it but might be worth searching

Quote:

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Originally Posted by abw

Naa..not yet. Just some info I picked up on that other forum. I'm not sure if it's okay to provide a link?

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>>>tappin from tassie

Anyway, here's the link..it's post #16 http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/nissa...ch-kits-17715/

I had a look at the link and sent an email to him.
Below is his reply.

Hi John, no worries. I sure have done the Engine Oil Flush thing on a few diffs, including the entire range of Patrols up to the Y61, a few Jackaroos of varying vintages, a Rodeo, some Pajero's, a bunch of Tritons, & I'm sure there are more vehicles that I can't recall right now.*


Does it work? One word - YES!!*


But not on Toyota style 'clutch pad material' LSD's; it tends to kill them at about the same rate they wear off the clutch pad type friction material anyway - so if your Toyota LSD won't limit slip any more or provide better traction than an pen diff, it usually means it's done more than about 40,000 km ans it's worn out anyway!! The reason the EOF thing works on the better metal disc/plate type LSD's run by the vehicles I've mentioned above like it does is that it really cleans the oil build up off the wave springs & metal clutch plate discs on those better LSD's. So I'm sorry if you are hoping to resurrect a Toyota LSD, that ain't gonna happen EVER, & shimming it up again even if you don't make it any tighter will only see it pretty much worn out in about 40k km anyway!! Similarly with the metal plate disc jobbies, NO LSD benefits for too long by putting in too many more plates or shimming the diff up tighter; they might work 'better' by transferring some torque a little sooner for a short while, but the extra pressure really only makes them wear out quicker.*


The thing to remember about both Open diffs & all clutch style LSD's (but not the screw type Torsen Diffs) is that they are Torque SHARING devices, it's just that the LSD's use pressure plates of some sort to limit the free spinning of a 'traction deprived' wheel & transfer a max of about 40% of however little torque it takes to spin that traction deprived wheel - and if that wheel is lifted & therefore takes no or a tiny amount of torque to turn it, the LSD can only 'share' a tad less than one half of nothing!! So you need to learn to use your left foot to feather the foot brake in order to load the diff up enough to provide*some*torque to share without stopping the wheel spinning; or if equipped with a rear wheel activated hand brake, you can use a notch or two of handbrake to do the same thing. Those techniques also work on the lesser diffs like the Toyota clutch pad material jobbies, but once again, it really only wears those out quicker!!*


Back to the oil flush technique, I learnt about it from a diff specialist, only he recommended replacing the entire contents of the diff oil with engine oil flush & running it for up to 5000 km - I was never that brave, so have only ever used about 350-500 mls of EOF after draining that much from the diff oil & then running them there full range of operation for about 1000km before replacing the oil with fresh diff oil, but it's never created any problems that I'm aware of. In fact, there are more than a couple of diffs I know of out there that have had this done to them a few times and are so far running well after travelling*more than1,300,000 km (yep, One point Three MILLION kilometres!!) Two of those diffs I owned & ran for the first 1.3mil km, and I know they've travelled more than 100,000 km each since I sold them!! Back when I was running a fleet of Patrol 4by's, once the diff got a little tired (usually up around 200,000 km or so) we'd do this, sometimes twice or more; with the test of success being letting the fresh oil filled diff attempt to drag a 1tonne pallet load of cement bags lifted up on a pallet truck across the warehouse with one rear wheel lifted clear of the ground on a wheeled trolley jack! If it couldn't drag the cement that far using the drive from only one wheel & the LSD transferred torque, we'd run the EOF thru it again!! For what it's worth, I generally prefer to use the Nulon Engine Oil Flush, but have used other brands with similar success.


How's that for enough info? Over to you. ;)


Cheers


Peter

I took off the level plug that's on the side of the diff to have a look at the condition of the oil and there was the correct amount, but there was a bit if black stuff that probably shouldn't be there.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...016/08/300.jpg

I'm going to give this a go. My theory is just a dump and refill won't clean anything.

Wish me luck...

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That's a great reply!

>>>tappin from tassie

Yeah good reply. If I ever get my Patrol back I will give this a shot too I reckon.

That's some seriously good information there, Jay see! Why don't you give the engine flush a go? What you're trying to do, is dissolve the buildup of varnish on the steel LSD clutch plates. Just changing the oil probably aint gunna do it IMHO.

I reckon this thread should be pinned. What do you think?

I found this youtube clip explaining how LSD (the type used in the Patrol) works: https://youtu.be/WeLm7wHvdxQ

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Originally Posted by mudski

Yeah good reply. If I ever get my Patrol back I will give this a shot too I reckon.

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What are they doing, building you a new one....

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Originally Posted by abw

That's some seriously good information there, Jay see! Why don't you give the engine flush a go? What you're trying to do, is dissolve the buildup of varnish on the steel LSD clutch plates. Just changing the oil probably aint gunna do it IMHO.

I reckon this thread should be pinned. What do you think?

I found this youtube clip explaining how LSD (the type used in the Patrol) works: https://youtu.be/WeLm7wHvdxQ

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I'm planning on doing this tomorrow.



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Great video abw. Thanks for posting

>>>tappin from tassie

Thanks will check ebay for the can.

My Patrol has the full NADS system. The exhaust dropped 150degrees out of the EGTs. 110 on the highway in 5th gear temps vary from 225 to 300, towing the 1.8t boat through the mountains, 550, 600 if I am being silly. I dont do silly anymore.

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Originally Posted by jay see

What are they doing, building you a new one....




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I think they are planning on ''tearing me a new one'' with the bill for an overstay charge.

Thanks to all involved in getting this very useful info. Will store it away in the ol' grey matter for future reference.

I'm sure that I've gut the right stuff here, but.....

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...016/08/313.jpg

This is the right one yeah???

Any tips on getting it in. I've read that it can be quite thick and difficult to get it in.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jay see

I'm sure that I've gut the right stuff here, but.....

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...016/08/313.jpg

This is the right one yeah???

Any tips on getting it in. I've read that it can be quite thick and difficult to get it in.

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i use a giant syringe like you can get from burson's

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Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD

I would not take it anywhere near a dealer unless you want to take out a second mortgage. ..................

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Brilliant mate! You couldn't have worded it any better. :D :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by garett

i use a giant syringe like you can get from burson's

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I'm doing this tomorrow, what other ways do people recommend.
Will pop into repco or super cheap to see what's on offer.

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Think I might try this

https://www.autobarn.com.au/stm-1-li...oil-pump-ca586

Or

The pressurised weed sprayer.

Already not looking forward to this.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jay see

Think I might try this

https://www.autobarn.com.au/stm-1-li...oil-pump-ca586

Or

The pressurised weed sprayer.

Already not looking forward to this.

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Sit the oil in front of a heater for a while mate. Works wonders.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mudski

Sit the oil in front of a heater for a while mate. Works wonders.

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Was going to stick the container in hot water.

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Yeah I just used a small elec heater when I did mine.

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Originally Posted by mudski

Yeah I just used a small elec heater when I did mine.

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Might be better, pretentiously less mess.

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