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Hi,
does anyone know how much and who does this in Rockhampton.
i have a 1988 GQ td42 diesel patrol, and i would like to install a gas injection system in it as it appears that all the literature indicates that this would be a great saving and boost the performance overall. i'd really like to know what you think and if you have any information.
Cheers
Although I've never had a car with diesel/gas, or taken a converted car for a drive, as a mechanic (and former automotive LPG fitter) diesel gas makes a lot of sense. By adding a small (about 20 or 30%) of LPG to the diesel combustion process, the burn of fuel inside the cylinder is so much more complete and cleaner.
A typical diesel engine only burns about 75 to 80% of the fuel injected into the cylinder, the rest goes out the exhaust as particulate emissions (or soot), or condenses on the cylinder walls and eventually ends up in the engine oil. Which explains why diesel engine oil goes black.
When you add the small amount of LPG, the diesel burn rate is closer to 97%. The LPG works as an accelerant, causing the diesel to burn more quickly. More fuel being burnt means more power, lower particulate/soot emmissions, and cleaner engine oil. With more of the fuel being burnt in the cylinder, exhaust temperatures often come down too. Fuel economy can improve, but often people just get used to having the extra power for climbing hills etc, so economy remains much the same.
Because you only need 20 to 30% LPG to achieve all this, the gas tank only needs to be about 30% of the size of you diesel tank. If you've got a 145l long range diesel tank, that means you only need a 50l (usable) gas tank. Small tanks are cheaper and much easier to package under the car.
It all just makes sense!
Some other points raised by Peter Kitchener from Redlands 4X4 (Brisbane Bayside)
He does not like putting LPG cylinders under 4WD's, the cylinders are too vunereble to damage. His only exception to this, is when the vehicle is being used for TOURING ONLY.
Unlike petrol LPG conversions where the main fuel tank (between the chassis rails behind the back axle) is usually removed and replaced with an LPG tank, diesel gas conversions usually keep the original fuel tank. So another location needs to be found for the LPG tank.
Peter's prefered location is in the cargo area. He is waiting for a new type of tank to be approved for use in Australia. These new tanks will measure approximately 1m X 1m X 100 to 150mm high, and should fit neatly in the bottom of the cargo area as a false floor.
There are different types of diesel gas systems out there, some expensive, others not so expensive. In short, you get what you pay for. The less expensive systems are not as well controlled, and therefore better suited to constant load engines, gensets etc. The better systems are all processor controlled and much more accurate and tuneable.
The cheaper systems can, under some circumstances, potentially cause engine damage. The majority of diesel gas systems use vapour withdrawal, where the LPG is drawn out of the top of the tank as a vapour. The risk with that is if the liquid LPG in the tank is splashing around (very likely off road), that some liquid could be drawn off into the fuel (service) line. If that liquid were to make it to the engine, it could cause a hydraulic lock in the engine, as liquid does not compress.
The systems Peter fits have an LPG converter to stop this from happening. LPG converters are used to convert liquid LPG to a vapour. His converters do not require connection to the cooling system (with the added complexity that involves), because most of the time the LPG going through the converter is already a vapour.
*Side note; Liquid withdrawal systems require engine coolant running through them all the time to stop them freezing up (due to the latent heat of evaporation as LPG expands from a liquid to a vapour). Diesel gas systems can get away with having vapour withdrawal, as the LPG only makes up about 30% of the engines required fuel supply.
There would be no benefit to fitting diesel gas to a common rail engine, with the LPG technology currently available.The automotive LPG industry lags behind petrol and diesel fuel system technology by a few years. For that reason, Peter does not fit or recommend fitting diesel gas to late model (about 2008 onwards) diesels with common rail fuel systems.
On the other hand, engines like the TD42T benefit greatly from diesel gas. Naturally aspirated engines do not gain as much as their turbo (or super)charged counterparts, as they are not able to supply as much oxygen to the cylinders.
Tony
I was talking to someone who had gas on diesel patrol comp truck. He said the way he's is set up saves fuel cost but doesn't really gain boost. He said that there are three different ways of setting Gas/Diesel systems. I'll try to get this right.
First is to use diesl to start vehicle and flick to gas.
Second and third were similar but must be What Tony(YNOT) is talking about gas and diesel together but differen systems.
Sorry maybe this will prompt more explanation and opions of systems. Tony knows his stuff.
Gday mate, Im also in Rockhampton and have diesel gas on my td42. I bought my car in Brisbane where the previous owner got it fitted by Team Green Autogas. If you have any Q's or want a look feel free to ask as have a fair understanding of how my system works. Cheers, Bevan
Team Green Autogas is in Slacks Creek (brisbane area) I believe FYI.
thanks guys for the information
Finlyowner,
Diesel gas works by as the name suggests, utilising diesel and gas as fuels that both run the engine. You cannot start the truck on diesel and then switch to gas only. The gas as some one else suggested is a catlyst that ensures a greater burn rate by the diesel fuel. I have a dgas set-up and it makes a big difference in terms of power and keeping the internals clean. Enconomy comes in on the back of using less throttle due to more torque and power available to the engine through the lpg and diesel mix. Would I fit it again........nah I would go for a diesel chip.
hi all, I am new to this site and would like to hear from anyone who has a similar vehicle with LPG on it, our vehicle is a October 2004 ST 4.2td, modifications so far have been long range tanks, snorkel, 3 inch SS exhaust system, boosted to 11psi with appropriate gauges, we are caravaners. I have had experience with LPG and dual fuel having run it on 2 Holden vehicles for 20 years, one of which we still own which I bought new in 1972, a HQ 308 v8, my local mechanical shop does not think that LPG is any good for our vehicle, but having read comments from various sources I wonder why.
Same here, ive read the theory and would love to hear people that have it installed, love it? hate it? Whats the reality compared to the spiel ?
my '93 GQ patrol has a TD42 engine fitted with this system ... www.d-gas.com.au.
apart from a couple of probs that popped up early through sloppy/thoughtless install, i'm quite happy with the results. my biggest reason for getting the system installed was environmental, in that the majority of particulate matter is burned and the exhaust emissions are much cleaner than your standard old '93 diesel engine. it cost about $3,800 i think ... and $3,000 of that was covered in government rebates [$2,000 federal + $1,000 state or vice versa].
i am probs a little different from many with the system, as i deliberately wanted a non-turbo [naturally aspirated] 4x4 ... the system set up in my engine was set to inject gas at 1,000 and 2,150 rpm. as tony has said above, i probs don't notice as many benifits in power as if i ran a turbo, but as i have also said above, my primary concern was my environmental responsibility. i believe i have seen slight improvements in both power and economy, but they are not marked improvements. it was also difficult to guage power/economy benefits at the beginning, as before the install i drove without a 900kg camper trailer, and straight after the install we headed off on our trip with the trailer attached.
i still feel good about having it ... it's just a shame i can't find anyone to service it here in hobart.
I have a 1999 GU TD42 NA
it had the Diesel Gas setup in it when I brought it in Feb this year
from what I can gather from reading all over the place.... its not very helpful to a NA engine, but, much better on a Turbo'd engine
I had mine Dyno'd the other day
while on Diesel only, it was doing 88Kw & 257Nm at the wheels
on Diesel & gas, it was 92Kw & 273Nm at the wheels
not a vast improvement, but enough to let me know, once I get it Turbo'd, it will be a heck of a lot better
cheers
Good to hear some intellegent information out there ! but I will stick to my 89MQ with 4.2 petrol engine straight gas engine with all mods to suit LPG. Thanks :)
I'm sure a good system of gas has to be perfect!
If I may add my 2 cents to this to this topic.
My background with diesel/LPG goes back to 1999 when we were looking at avenues to get more power and driveability out of the 4 cylinder n/a Hilux. We supercharged one, turbocharged one, and we put lpg on one. The supercharger created too much vibration on the poor little diesel. The turbocharger obviously worked well with an approx 25% increase in HP and Torque (same as what you get with the average Safari turbo kits). Adding a small amount of LPG to the air fuel mixture had amazing results, 30% increase in HP and Torque and it was the only way to get the Hilux to redline in 5th gear.
Diesel/LPG is nothing new, Mr Henry Ford (from the research we did) did the first commercially available system in the 1920's, called a "torque topper". If a truck came to a hill that he'd normally have to start dropping gears to get over, he'd flick a switch that would turn on the LPG, then turn it off again once over the crest.
Too much LPG is bad and causes detonation, so we did alot of dyno testing to get the right blend, and that blend is different for every vehicle. All you are trying to do with the LPG is aid the combustion of the diesel, getting the right mix takes your engine that has approx 75% efficiency upto to approx 98% efficiency, with a 60% reduction in heavy particulate diesel emmissions.
There are many ways to do the conversion, you can soley add LPG, you can rack back the diesel manually and add LPG, or incorporate a solenoid that racks back the diesel while LPG is being used. Each way has its pro's and con's.
The best increase in power I ever got was 100HP on a 6cyl MAN diesel that we did for Western Power.
Just another note, if you have a GU Ute and are looking at putting it on diesel/lpg, you can raise the tray approx 20mm (depending on the brand) and install an XF Falcon APA brand G84 manifold tank between the spare wheel carrier assembly and the tray. Manufacturing the brackets is a bit tricky, but it makes for a neat conversion.
What sort of control systems were you using to control the gas flow?
Tony
I did all my conversion with modified off-the-shelf IMPCO mixers and converters, and built my own electrical control systems.
It was the best fail safe way to prevent over fueling of lpg.
How does keeping the standard diesel delivery and adding a small amount of LPG compare to winding back the diesel and adding more LPG?
Tony
I would like to examine this statement a little more. Whilst the CRD engines can benefit from 3rd part chips and the likes, if what has been stated previously in that the injection of LPG creates efficiencies of 90 - 95% compared to the 80% of normal diesel combustion, whould not CRD engines still benefit from LPG injection or am I missing something in the rationale here?Quote:
Originally Posted by YNOT
Regards
Graham
CRD's would still benefit from LPG but the gains will be less because the diesel burn in CRD engines is better than in older diesels.
Common rail diesels are more efficient partly due to their better fuel atomisation created by the extremely high injection pressure, more efficient 4 valve heads (in most cases) but also due to their multi shot injection. A CRD injector can fire up to 7 times per power stroke, an initial pilot injection followed by multiple main injections, this allows a much more efficient burn (and better torque) than was ever possible in older diesels.
Tony
I found that Landcruisers needed some fuel taken out to make the set-up run at its best. But the main difference is that if you left the rack alone, and you ran out of LPG, you don't loose any power from how your vehicle was initially set up before the conversion. If you run out of LPG in the middle of no-where you don't want an under-powered vehicle to get back in. And using solenoids to rack back the diesel is very expensive to set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNOT
The Patrol diesels get more than enough power (if done correctly) without touching the rack.
How about fuel consumption now?how much it goes per litre now?@lotus :)
Fuel economy soley depends on the driver, the way I used to describe it was like getting a boat up on a plane, you can back off the throttle slightly and maintain your speed. Then the difference between the fuel you used to use and the fuel you use now plus the amount of lpg you use makes the equation for savings.
Because many people don't drive their vehicles differently after the conversion, they use the same amount of fuel and just get more power. I never marketed the conversion as a fuel saver but rather a power upgrade.
Stock TD42 isn't that bad...so why mod it...modding less its longivity
lol because no matter what manufacturers produce, people will always want more power. These days, I spend most of my time modifying and tuning brand new Falcons and Commodores these thing already have 260 - 300rwhp, I take that to 350 - 380rwhp on a basic upgrade and into the 470rwhp mark with some engine mods (eg- cam upgrade). People just want to go faster.
One diesel/lpg conversion I did, the customer wanted the absolute maximum amount of lpg that could be used. This thing used to detonate on gear changes, but the customer was happy with that. It was a 2.5lt turbo diesel Courier, the customer used to enter it in burnout comps and dyno comps with 31" tyres on it. Just crazy.
Really different minds different tastes,I will factory settings.In future,may be a turbo kit setup.thats all
does anybody install on gold coast
Even though I'm not a diesel fan, I still enjoyed the informative read.
Good one fellers.
Hey Guys,
I just bought a GQ patrol TD42 (N/A) with a d-gas system installed, to be honest i can't even notice any more power when the switch is flicked.
What's the best way to determine if a gas system is working properly?
Is there any servicing that need's to be done to the gas system?
Looking up the d-gas installer it seems there no longer in business any more.
Any ideas?
What kind of fuel efficiency fiqures do you have?Quote:
Originally Posted by KROOZA
Unfortunately i haven't had the car long enough to be able to give you anything worthwhile. (Around 2 weeks).
I remember seeing an internet site that you could plug your fuel fill in litres, k's done, price paid etc...and it would keep track of it for you.
Anyone have any idea which site i'm on about?
Hey col,i would seriously consider doing your rings if u r going to turbo this engine.I have heard that a n/a engine that has a after market turbo bolted on it has a greater chance of meltdown as the rings have not been designed to cope with the extra load.Can anyone give info on this subject???Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigcol
mews auto gas 9434 2077
Meadow Springs Motors Mandurah 08 9581 7007 Darryl/Brendan Yes Yes
IN addition to my 1990 GQ 4.2 Diesel Nissan, I have a 1967 Landrover Ser11A. It is fitted with dual fuel. The tank sits behind the bulkhead behind the two seats. My mechanic inspecting it said that we would have to fabricate a box to enclose it. A few weeks later two mechanics from the Roads and Transprt Austhority came out to inspect it. This is not usual, but occasionally the do spots checks. I mentioned that we were in the process of trying to figure out a box to enclose it, but the guy said it was fine as it is, The valves, etc are in a modern high pressure container and it vents out of the cabin through a pipe. He said my mechanic wasn't up to date. That was easy 7-8 years ago (the rotten thing probably needs a big check up, it has to be 10 years old now.
Hey Lad's,
Does anyone have any diagrams/schematics or any info they received with there "D-Gas" branded diesel gas systems that they share with me?
I am trying to figure out what goes where and why on my "D-gas" system.
Cheers
BROOZA
thats interesting, im sure it works the same with a turbo as without?
What is the economy like, my td42 uses 13-15, what would it go down to and how much gas would it use?
I've never heard of this system before, but can see the benefits for the emissions regulations here in British Columbia. However, I am still unclear - do these systems (diesel-gas) use the same amount of diesel, plus some LPG? So effectively using more fuel? Also, how about wear and tear on the engine - does this reduce engine life, or does a cleaner burning engine actually increase engine life?
You get a higher power output, so if you still take say 20 seconds to get to 60k from 0 you will save fuel as the go peddle won't be depressed as far..
If you keep putting the go peddle to the ground you will still use the same amount of diesel, just chirp the wheels more often...
Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories
I like the sound of this ... ;-)