Just saw this little chart made by Offroad Living.
Thought I would show you guys and see your thoughts?
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...018/02/112.jpg
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Just saw this little chart made by Offroad Living.
Thought I would show you guys and see your thoughts?
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...018/02/112.jpg
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Yep I'd say about spot on AB .
Or is this Engel advertising?
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Reckon it might be a bit low? I have the Engel 40L and asked @Cuppa for his advice. He did the calculations and came to the result that I needed a 120W panel. I bought a 140W panel as a safety.
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Wow just noticed the difference between the two... No secret that the Engel uses less power than the older waeco (I've got no idea on the newer model waeco) but not by that much!Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
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Yeah it's double and doesn't make sense.
I can run my 60 waeco "indefinitely" off my 120w panel 100ah battery along with basic led light, phone charging, etc.
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Yeah nah definitely right. Engel rule!!Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
Haha jokes I wouldn't have a clue.
Checked the website fine print but couldn't find any ownership info other than the family running the show.
You will get away with it AB in good conditions ie full sun all or most of the day but get three to four cloudy days and I assure you there is no substitute for quantity .
My Engel 40L fridge is listed twice with different figures... Lol
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What about a 1960's Engel with a seal that is hard as a rock [emoji6] . . .
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Going by this sheet, still less than a waeco probably lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Rossco
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Hmm. I run the 75L Engel fridge freezer, six led strip lights and one of those coke can inverters into a power board for charging devices, all on 2 x 100AH batts and a 100W and a 180W panel ( not always both getting sun) and never had the capacity below 85%.
FWIW, I find running two separate panels good because you can have them out in separate areas so if one panel gets shade the other might be getting sun.
Oh and a water pump for the kitchen sink....
Too many weather variables up here to comment between our Waeco’s/Engels & a missing TrailBlaza ripper @AB :-) http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...018/02/115.jpghttp://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...018/02/116.jpg
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troll troll i spot a troll..burn her at the steak..hear hearQuote:
Originally Posted by MB
I have a 160w solar panel and can run an Engel 40 indefinitely as well as charge phones.
5 days max tested so far and battery never drops below 95%.
FWIW... Perth WA so good solar hours compared top many areas but anyway...
Engel 38 fridge,
50AH AGM 2nd hand Battery,
2 x 30 year old 40 Watt panels so rated at 80 but degraded to 50-60 ish due to age leaning on my fence facing NW
Rat chewed old PWM reg I saved from the bin
Works great over a weekend as a beer fridge no probs, haven't tried it as a Freezer
So a 57lt Engel only requires 65W in perfect conditions, while an older Waeco Cf50 also out performs the Waeco CFX50 at 170W compared to 190W.........
What utter fuckin bollox.........
Odd how my 120W panel can keep a 100ah battery going running the cfx50 for 7 days during a not too sunny September.
That's quite an amazing feat Clunk .Quote:
Originally Posted by Clunk
Far too many variables for any claims made in this thread to be useful to others. If what someone has works for them that is all that matters. Extrapolating that to other's use without including ALL variables is pretty meaningless.
The chart itself is nonsense as it only refers 'ideal conditions' & 'allowing for 3 days of poor conditions'. Neither are defined, no ambient temps, no info as to what settings the fridges are set on etc etc. No average sun hours (which vary enormously from north to south & winter to summer) etc etc. What gets someone through for 3 days is totally different to what might be required for a week plus. ie. after 3 days re-charge on mains/gennie? or solar only indefinitely.
I don't believe those Engel figures, but suspect that the waeco figures are probably close to the mark if based upon an average of say 5 sun hours per day (but who would know - it is not specified). In Vic, it can often be 3 or less.
Likewise, folk reporting what works for them only quoting solar capacity/battery capacity is similarly misleading, albeit well meaning.
The real problem is that often folk who want to set up with solar, but know little to nothing about it just want someone else to tell them what they need, without understanding that what they need is very individualised. What works perfectly for one person can prove quite inadequate for another. Patterns of usage are everything! Just copying someone else's set up *may* work, but just as likely *may* not. Any good seller will help the buyer to undertake a a usage & consumption audit looking at all the variables before recommending anything. Anything else is just a shot in the dark.
Working out what your pattern of usage might be BEFORE setting up can be quite daunting, but it is neccessary to ensure you get what YOU want. Anyone can add up the consumption figures of their various appliances, but working out the usage pattern is the hard part. To be covered you need to have a sense of worst case scenario. How long, where, & when. Far better IMO to over rather than under estimate. Having a bit too much solar or battery capacity costs you in space & weight, Not having enough results in frustration & disappointment.
I doubt that everyone will share my view. Some may see trying to wing it on a minimalist set up as manageable, but like with many things setting up solar is one of those things where I believe it makes sense to 'do it once & do it right'. A well set up solar system (one that is 'balanced - ie. can bring the batteries back to float every 24 hours) is something which once achieved can bring a little satisfied smile to your face every day. Nothing beats just knowing that you have all the power you need from the sun with virtually no ongoing costs. It's just getting through the first stage which can seem a tad overwhelming ......... but it is worth it........ & whilst there is cost involved the initial outlay can be a lot less that the greater cost of upgrading to what you really needed.
When tables as posted are produced they can be helpful to give folk an idea ......... but they are a shot in the dark & can mislead. No skin of a sellers nose, as if they have sold you an inadequate system, they've made their sale & can always sell you more to make up an initial shortfall. In the meantime you might've had a lovely 3 weeks away marred by warm beer & a grumpy wife & a battery you've wrecked.
I'm generally happy to try to help others work out what they need, but doing so involves me asking just as many questions as I get asked. An alternative, which I reckon it is hard to beat is to suggest that folk outlay around $40 on one of Collyn Rivers books on Solar. They are easy to read for the non technically minded but cover all that is required. Even if paying someone else to set up a system for you rather than doing it yourself, getting the understanding that these books gives you would be *very* helpful.
..............how long is a piece of string?
I have 465w of solar to run 410ah of AGMs/Gels running 3 fridges (2 in the Patrol 1 in the camper 170l capacity in total) ..................... if I drive a long distance during the day I'm fine, if I have full sun on parked up days I'm fine .................. but I do carry a 1kva Yamaha generator for the times when the sun don't shine too bright.
As Cuppa says too many variables to give definitive answers to "vague" questions. As for the chart basically a waste of electrons having it on the www :1087:
Should probably add, fridge was set to a temp of 3 degrees, in it's fridge cover. Placed under a gazeebo, so in the shade all day. Ambient temps were approx 18deg during the day, dropping to 5 at night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clunk
As well as cloud cover affecting your panels efficiency temperature also affects how much power you'll get out of them so on the really hot days with clear sunlight your fridges will cycle more but the panels will produce less .
I had 600 watt of solar on the caravan roof which easily coped with the the two house batteries but plugging in the 4by to charge the aux battery as well was starting to stretch the capacity .
I agree with Cuppa and GQtdauto, too many variables to give a one sentence answer. I run 2 off 60w Canon Shade tolerant panels into a 200a/h deep cycle, with current monitoring. The max rated output is 3.88a/panel. I get anywhere from 0.1 to 4.1amps per panel depending on the time of day, the ambient temperature, cloud cover. I try to keep the depth of discharge as minimal as possible to prolong battery life, so when I get to say 12.5V, I start the car and give the battery a booster shot from the alternator. I run my fridge at 1 degC plus minus 0.2degC using a calibrated external controller. I have an old 60L Engel fidge with the old compressor that draws 6amps - the newer compressor draws 4 amps using a smart controller. I also run a thermostatically controlled circulation fan that draws 0.1a and comes on at 35degC and off at 28 degC - this circulates the cabin air to improve the heat transfer process of the fridge. I love these panels as they are glass free and laid on SS sheet - basically indestructable, but Canon have stopped making them now. If going for a panel, look at a shade tolerant panel, probably monocrystalline for the highest efficiency. Mine are fix mounted on the roof rack with a 10" airgap to the roof, so they don't suffer too much from reflected heat, the portable panels are a good option as it allows you to optimse the charge with repositioning/aligment during the day, but for me thats too much effort. Hope this helps. Also, your fridge consumption will increase with ambient temperature, so bear this in mind when doing your calculations, plus you only get abot 5 hrs a day at max radiation, and this is approx 60% of the value the panels are rated at, another allowance required.
That book that Cuppa refers to I believe the guy recommends something upwards of 250 watt of solar per battery from memory , his reasoning is that on even the bad days you will still get enough to get you through .
Clunks example makes some sense now he's explained the conditions , Wonnangatta last year was mid to high 30s during the day and close to zero at night , I actually turned the fridges off before going to bed and noticed when I turned them back on in the morning they were colder than when I turned the things off .
My fridges are both fixed in position though so airflow is always a hassle .
FWIW a recent 40+ degree long weekend with minimal to none daily cloud up on the border found my 120W Waeco portable panel struggling to pump over say 4.5amps at absolute best. (All panels were struggling there I believe)
Regularly pooring warmish river water over the panels helped it briefly back to between 6&7Amps according to the clamp meter. Quite tedious work but was trying to keep the icy poles frozen for the kids in one and beers and tucker at 1 degree in the other without too much DOD over 252Amps storage.
My old DX setup had 240W on the roof and used to make slow ice in the old TrailBlaza beast. Can’t remember ambient temps there then though but still well in the 30’s for sure!
Excessive ambient heat appears to affect as much as cloud cover in my elecy nuffy learnings so will be expanding panel size again one day too!
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Christ Cuppa, you had to get all technical and knowledgeable in your posts...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Cuppa
Very true though mate on everything mentioned, like I said, is this Engel advertising or?
Not really... soooo in trying to reduce it to one sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
Sawafuji Compressors are very efficient, Danfoss type are not so when all else is equal (cabinet materials, useage, solar energy, etc) getting similar cooling performance out of the Sawafuji system means less power, sometimes a lot less.
Perhaps this camping shop sells Engel and not waeco...Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
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Please excuse my ignorance here ET mate, which compressors are in which fridges?Quote:
Originally Posted by the evil twin
We’ve collected many fridge brands over the years from old RB’s faithful ‘TrailBlaza’ to oldish ‘Waeco’ 50’s/60’s/80FF and Engel recent 21L retros. Still do love the ‘TrailBlaza’ the best but man it’s outer size (insulation) is huge, only ute fitting!
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Brief history lesson opportunity beckons...Quote:
Originally Posted by MB
Waaay waaay back in the 50's a mob of Germans were making portable fridges and the compressor of choice was also German, specifically Danfoss.
Another German, specifically Mr Delt was making this nifty outlandish Compressor that all the other Germans laughed at (more about him later)
Then a Japanese dude, specifically Mr Sawafuji came and saw one of the German dudes, specifically Mr Engel and said "maaate, they are really awesome fridges you make but I have a radical new compressor that will make 'em even better".
Mr Engel said "OK lets give it a shot" and dumped Danfoss for Sawafuji and all the other Germans threw sauerkruat at them.
But Mr Sawafuji was right and Mr Engels' fridges with his Compressor were indeed much more reliable and used less power which was vitally important back before Solar Panels etc when the fridge had to run on Battery alone.
What many didn't know was the Mr Sawafujis Compressor was actually the design he had bought from M Delt and was German all along.
Mr Engel got tired of getting showered in Sauerkraut every time he went to the Brewhaus and told Mr sawafuji he wanted to sell Sawafuji Compressors to his mates.
This pissed Mr Sawafuji off so he bought out Mr Engel but didn't want to upset the apple cart too much so didn't change the name and kept the fridge manufacturing in Germany.
The other Germans pleaded with Mr Sawafuji to sell them his compressors as well but he told them to stick it up their lederhosen and went on to make an even larger fortune in the great sauerkraut famine of '68
Soooo, the first few iterations of Engels had Danfoss but from then on Engel (and only Engel) have been 100% Sawafuji.
Everyone else uses Danfoss or Danfoss clones
Sawafuji (Delt) compressor design and operation is totally different to the Danfoss style rotary jobbies and the design is locked up rock solid in world wide patents and Sawafuji refuses to licence them out or onsell to this day
Still not convinced chaps!
According to this I need a 200w system alone for my waeco and add 30w for phone charging.
So my below I would need a 300w panel? Cmon!!!
Yet I've done 10 years in all sorts of conditions for weeks on end running my fridge, lights, charging 2 x iPads kids and iPhone for me without getting below 90% charge on 100ah battery.
Snow, desert, clouds, overcast, hot as hell weather so?
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Pure GOLD! Danke/Arigatou gozaimasu!!
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Honestly not trying to be a smartarse bro but you are truly a mover and shaker, inspiring!Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
I reckon the main variable you are missing is your daily camp alternator drives most nights I’ve seen?
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Dōitashimashite, watashi no yūjinQuote:
Originally Posted by MB
Shite, me wapps bwoken :-)
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I'm actually talking about the battery I used to sit at camp with the family on the old Sunwagon with nothing but that 120w panel old mate. No alternator bro...Quote:
Originally Posted by MB
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....Fair call, apologies, agreed for sure! That little battery has been awesome!!!!!!
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@ABQuote:
Originally Posted by AB
Turn your bloody phone off. You are camping and enjoying the serenity . LMAO
BTW I have a 140 Watt Solar Panel with a 100 AH Battery running a 60 Litre Fridge/Freezer . The Battery is fully charged each day about 2pm.
Don't know any of the technical details but it works for me
And that's what matters hey!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
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