Diagnosis help - noise under load sounds like transmission but....

Hi all,

The history is my 02 GU 4.8 auto duel fuel seemed to have a slow minor leak. Turns out when I looked beneath it was a bit bigger than that. She's developed a whine and what sounds like a holed exhaust noise.mbut only under load in drive.. If I'm in neutral and rev her the noise is gone, if I'm in drive and coasting it's gone. If it's cold, the noise isn't there but as soon as it warms up above say 60-70 in the transmission it starts.

I'll attempt to post pic of where I think the leak has been from. I did check my transmission fluid levels after purchasing the Nissan dip stick (anyone out my way ever wants to borrow pm me) and aside from appearing to have green transmission fluid the levels seemed appropriate at both hot and cold checks so my leak is not transmission.this is where I think the leak is sourced...

Attachment 59964

I'll try and get her up on stands and specifically identify the noise but short of that I'm keen to diagnose or at least shortlist cause.

Based on the load occurrence and temperature factors it must be driveline gear changes seem fine in both 2 and 4wd. Like I said it sounds like when one of the bolts between exhaust sections mid vehicle went missing and thee was a leak but there's no obvious hole...

Anyone had same? Amy suggestions?

Maybe a bearing that's activated In drive under load?
It's not the chain in transfer case as no grinding or clunking?
Shaft?
Diff although I don't think it is but could it be?

There seems to be some loss of power when this is occurring but not slipping type just general inability to get power to wheels?

Thanks for reviewing - frustrated but hopeful not a terminal issue!

Dave

checked the level in your transfer ? sounds like it might be a low oil level ... my gear box did something similar when it was low on oil. the transfer i think is separate from your transmission.

Thanks good sir... Will go about doing so tomorrow morning. Stay tuned for follow up question should my search for doing so proves fruitless...

So lots of inspecting and research, it took a suspicion and mounting my gopro under the canyonero to see something a bit sus - my front prop shaft is full time engaged!

Is this something to do with auto locks playing up?

You can manualize the hubs if you want, have a search .
Easy enough to do from what I hear

MudRunner I'll pm you as well I read the following and am keen to see what you did to resolve the issue as I suspect it's what I have happening but am disinclined to convert my autos to manual unless absolutely necessary...

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Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD

I would remove the front drive shaft and go for a drive and see if it is still there???

I have had a similar type of thing.... I think? It turned out my Auto hubs had not disengaged and although I was in 2wd I was still locked in 4wd. Worth a shot. You would not likely feel this vibe offroad so may not notice.

It would take 5 minutes to remove the front shaft and worth a drive, you could be chasing a ghost mate.

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Transfer case - took out just over 1lt of gear oil which was black and a very small amount of metal filings on magnet and replaced with semi synthetic Penrite atf -instant improvement - still a bit of a noise but could be diff so will do both next weekend. I've degreased and cleared the entire transmission and tfer case so I'll be able to spot where any leak is occuring. Haven't checked yet if auto hubs disengaged - stay tuned

At one stage, I wanted to convert my manual hubs to auto, thinking it's a PITA to get out of the car all the time to engage them.
Then I read all the postings here(well, not all of them of course :D), and decided to stay happy with the manual hubs I have. :)
So, how did you go with disconnecting the front drive shaft and testing to see if it's the auto hub?

To be done with the drive shaft- ran out of time as have little one...

Any tips on the process - remove front drive shaft, go for drive? [emoji55]


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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

To be done with the drive shaft- ran out of time as have little one...

Any tips on the process - remove front drive shaft, go for drive? [emoji55]


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That's probably a good idea.

Would rear diff make drone noise a bit like holed exhaust under load?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

Would rear diff make drone noise a bit like holed exhaust under load?


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This is what happened to the rear diff of my GQ, last year. It was the pinion bearing gone cactus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljzu...ature=youtu.be

And yes, I forgot to mention, the noise always sounded like it was coming from the front, but actually it was the back. The noises and vibrations travel through the drivetrain and not so easy to pinpoint locations most of the time. It was a whirring noise in my case. No damage was done to the diff internals, even though I kept driving like that for few weeks.

Ok - checked for play in the prop and drive shafts - none
Then after much percussive maintenance managed to open filler hole on rear diff - the fluid is prob 1cm below the filler hole. There was 1 very small metal filing on the plug. The fluid itself I'm unsure of what it should look like but here is a pic of what it looks like after a finger dip - keep in mind this is taken at 11pm, under the truck, in a servo, after 15 mins of belting a breaker bar with a weighted rubber mallet to release the plug...

Attachment 60186

Whilst doing all of this I remembered that a few weeks ago (maybe 4) I was inspecting and noticed the breather tube had disconnected at the top of the diff, I plugged it back in and it has stayed put but unsure how long it was off for..

And finally - here is a video I took last night where I am hoping you can hear the noise under load, when my seat isn't squeeking that is....
http://youtu.be/EbC23jQrtQg

I'm thinking I might drain and redo the diff today or tomorrow morning - and pull the shaft off and inspect the bearings if possible at the time.

So I'm hoping these media insertions hell and that someone here may indeed know exactly what it is I should be doing or at least help me nail the source of the nose - I suspect diff somewhere but am not certain.

Cheers

Dg

So diff oil replaced... 90 minutes in the middle of nowhere and cold but done..,what came out was pretty black'

And whilst the diff feels tighter the bloody noise is still there.

So I've checked tranny fluid, checked transfer case which was low and gear oil and now diff which I suspect had some water and replaced all with appropriate fluids and still happening so likely to be diff internals? Anything else?


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Oh one more discovery - occurs only under load in all gears and only between about 1900 rpm and 3000 rpm?


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Have you checked the universal joints. I have known a faulty one to make a buzzing noise.

Update - front prop shaft removed and I suspect for the first time ever. Noise still there - but far out the steering is now light so I may have one or 2 locked hubs as well which I'll jack up later and check - the unis seem ok in situ but short of pulling the tail shaft off won't truly be able to tell. I'm hoisting it up later today and going to see if I can replicate with it in the air and zoom in on the source....but noise is not from forward of the tfer case....


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So front left auto is not disengaging and that in turn has meant constant 4wd through the transfer case which is where I'm guessing I have something with worn down teeth so it looks like I'll be leaving the front prop shaft off to avoid further damage and then investigating if I can diy repair or mechanic and then do a auto hub to manual conversion... Man that sucks!


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why not try marking the position of rear prop shaft remove it and see if uni's are worn out.
could be the cause of noise as already pointed out.
maybe even stick it in 4x4 and go for a drive with rear prop removed.
you may isolate a cause

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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

Update - front prop shaft removed and I suspect for the first time ever. Noise still there - but far out the steering is now light so I may have one or 2 locked hubs as well which I'll jack up later and check - the unis seem ok in situ but short of pulling the tail shaft off won't truly be able to tell. I'm hoisting it up later today and going to see if I can replicate with it in the air and zoom in on the source....but noise is not from forward of the tfer case....


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Well, obviously you have a front end issue as well, if removing the front shaft eased up the steering.
Find out the front hubs aren't locked by jacking up the front end and turning each wheel and see if the diff pinion/front shaft turns.
Gentle turning as well as sudden jerking turning of the wheel might help diagnosing possible intermittent lockup of a bad auto hub.

Have you checked the rear uni joint for any play? Make sure a wheel is chocked up, not in gear and the hand brake is not on when you do that. Jack up the rear wheels and try to twist and push and pull the uni joint. Jacking up the rear wheels may not be important, but I reckon it can help with the feeling.
Seeing little bit of metal filing on the diff bung is not necessarily a bad thing.
Another thing came to my mind is that make sure the diff breather hose(both front and back) are not blocked. When the diff filler bung is out, blowing into the breather hose is a good way to find whether it's blocked or not. Blocked diff breathers can cause all kind of dramas, including oil seal failure and leaking diff oil and leaving it dry eventually. The blockage could be either inside the rubber hose or the diff breather hole or both.
Also make sure you use the proper LSD oil for the diff. Rear diff is definitely LSD. Front can be either LSD or open, depending on the history of the vehicle.
Considering what you've posted so far, I'm bit suspicious of the transfer and the gearbox, but you need to rule out the rear diff & uni joint first, 'cos AFAIK, they are a pretty common cause of drive train noise. Should I say rear uni joint(s)? See if the uni joints are in good overall look or whether they look like covered in crap. They need greasing as well, but that's out of question if one of them is already worn out.
BTW, uni joints are really happy when you mark them before removing and put back in exactly the same way it was before.
They can produce noises that wasnt there before when you do otherwise.
So, remove front and test drive(you've already done that)
Remove rear and test drive with front drive.

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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

So front left auto is not disengaging and that in turn has meant constant 4wd through the transfer case which is where I'm guessing I have something with worn down teeth so it looks like I'll be leaving the front prop shaft off to avoid further damage and then investigating if I can diy repair or mechanic and then do a auto hub to manual conversion... Man that sucks!


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It's better to try one thing at a time, while eliminating the suspected areas as the cause of the noise.
Transfer case is isolated when you're not in 4wd or low gear mode, right?
So, that should be another logical approach to elimination.

It's pretty hard to hear/diagnose noises from videos.

Watch these videos that I've posted during my rear diff drama.
In my case, the noise was quite prominent when coasting.
There's nothing you can really clearly hear in the video, but for me inside the car, it was
like a helicopter inside the vehicle. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mF-...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FXJ...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxzbdrNIeI
The humming, whirring noise is apparent when I was coasting the vehicle in the video, but hard to distinguish it from a plethora of other regular noises of a car. You need special kind of microphones to video record subtle noises. In my case, it was noisy while coasting most of the time, kinda classic worn rear diff pinion bearing symptom in early stages.(In the end, It got to the point it was making the noise when accelerating as well) I reckon there can be other things that make similar symptoms, like gearbox bearing issues.
In your case, coasting doesn't produce or aggravate the noise. That's kinda good news(or bad news, depend on actual location of the actual problem).

Thanks all so I had jacked up each front wheel and gave it a spin, the right front no prob but the left one spins the diff so even if I'm in 2wd it's turning the front prop shaft in the transfer case yeah?

Or is there some sort of mechanism in the transfer case that needs to be engaged? Ok just read the service manual to better understand and unless I engage the clutch and gear in then it will be spinning in neutral from the front but may have stressed the bearing...

I'll check the unis and breathers as described and hopefully isolate this. I'll also figure out if I can unlock the left hub before I make them into manuals..,,

Getting urgent now as looks like I may need to live in the girl for a while as wife just left me but I'm moving out so the kids and her will have a roof.... Fml


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Is there a way to unlock a stuck hub without doing a conversion?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

Is there a way to unlock a stuck hub without doing a conversion?


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Mine is manual, mate. I haven't had to deal with auto hubs so far. Somebody who knows about it need to post some advice about that.
I would suggest downloading the Haynes and factory manual form here and read it through and start dismantling the auto hub assembly. May be it just need some lubrication, grease to engage, disengage properly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

Thanks all so I had jacked up each front wheel and gave it a spin, the right front no prob but the left one spins the diff so even if I'm in 2wd it's turning the front prop shaft in the transfer case yeah?

Or is there some sort of mechanism in the transfer case that needs to be engaged? Ok just read the service manual to better understand and unless I engage the clutch and gear in then it will be spinning in neutral from the front but may have stressed the bearing...

I'll check the unis and breathers as described and hopefully isolate this. I'll also figure out if I can unlock the left hub before I make them into manuals..,,

Getting urgent now as looks like I may need to live in the girl for a while as wife just left me but I'm moving out so the kids and her will have a roof.... Fml


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Sorry mate. Sounds like a lot going on there, not just the fourby. May be you wanna open a thread in the area where we discuss such stuff?!

From the description above, it appears you have a stuck hub on one side. That may be your problem.
While waiting for somebody to post some good advice on that, skim through the repair manuals.

You're a good egg dom14...


Appreciate the advice. I'm going to pull the hub off and inspect clean and re grease the locked hub. I'll also reinstall front prop shaft and then going to check rear uni I as prescribed and while I'm underneath all coved in dirt I may as well check the breathers...

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time out to give good advice mate. Owe you a few beers!

***1 of the multiple issues and root cause of major issue solved***

Before work this morning I replaced the front prop shaft in exactly the same place it was - I then jacked up and put a stand under my left front and , removed the stuck autolock hub (front left) and inspected. It was caked in grease and it had grit in it - too much grease as far as i can tell. i removed grease, cleaned it up and applied new more appropriate levels of grease and tested. Still locked.

So i then went about the very simple task of removing autolocking mechanism, not kidding, it is easy as! during that process when locking the hub whilst off i noted that despite the nut being turned by my tyre iron, nothing internally seemed to move..... To verify my suspicion i remounted the hub and fastened with a couple of the hex head bolts and gave the wheel a spin, dutifully the front diff and replaced prop shaft immediately followed suit.

Remove offending hub, swear a bit, look at it in an angry tone and refer to the fa section of the service book. So i get how it works but obviously mine is stuck in lock regardless of the selection made. did some gentle poking and prodding and looking and swearing some more before i had the epiphany of last resort - last resort is when you are prepared to potentially damage the offending part and require spending money to replace.

So i put the hub on a by now very greasy rag, actually is was more of a pool of grease with a rag in it, exterior down, went to the toolbox, and pulled out the trusty weighted rubber mallet. it was time for percussive maintenance because aside from temperature all i could reasonably do to unstick a stuck sticky bit was force. And metal on metal type force through a metal hammer or prying posed to much risk of damage.

I let loose a couple (ok 3) very hefty but accurate strikes and heard the most pleasing sound, a sudden release of mechanical parts, insert fingers into centre of hub (mind you auto mechanism still off) and it spun inside the hub i was holding ie it had popped free. Remove more dirty grease and note the gritty non metal pieces. Draw conclusion that the grease had become gritty and fouled and this grittiness has caused the hub to lock on.

i then put the auto mechanism back on exactly where it came from (I mark all components i remove for the reverse rebuild) . I then put said hub on wheel again and unlocked again and spun the wheel and OMFG it worked... the hub spun freely. I then put hub on manual and it locked, I repeated many times and on each time the hub worked as it should, being now late for work was overshadowed by a small success.

SO - Was the front hub or both hubs locked? Yes one of them had jammed. As a result it had continuously rotated the prop shaft inside the transfer case however without selecting any 4x (H or L) this should not cause too much trauma but... the pre-existing oil leak from transfer case somewhere coupled with the increased friction temperature has quite possibly had an impact on the tfer internals.

So either later or early am tomorrow I will be doing the rear uni inspection and taking a good look at the unis and the bearings on rear diff front and transfer case out to shaft and also opening fill window and taking a peak.....

I'm pretty certain i've discovered the source (ie the locked hub) of the stresses that have resulted in; power loss and droning noise between 2k and 3k revs in all gears only under load. past 3k no problem with power getting down in all gears so i now suspect a bearing ether in the unis or the aforementioned shaft to diff or shaft to transmission/transfer areas.

So a leak to find and fix, a noise and low power in rev range remain the issues. But i still have working auto hubs and now the experience to be able to do that fix anywhere as long as i have tools!

I did manage a sneak peak and the rear shaft, from side on it appears to be spinning with a little eliptical wobble at the transmisson end..

stay tuned

DG

Never had any experience with the hubs - but love this write up. I wish I had that sense of humour when I pressure washed my engine and had to replace the alternator.

Good work Batman!
Love the optimism of starting a job like that in the morning before work!

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Originally Posted by SpecialDave

You're a good egg dom14...


Appreciate the advice. I'm going to pull the hub off and inspect clean and re grease the locked hub. I'll also reinstall front prop shaft and then going to check rear uni I as prescribed and while I'm underneath all coved in dirt I may as well check the breathers...

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time out to give good advice mate. Owe you a few beers!

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That's cool mate. Looks like you are onto it. It is fun to work on your own on your vehicle and to get things right. Especially it's fun when other things in your life going ok as well. Sounds like you have few hurdles to jump, but you'll get there. It's great you took time to describe all you've done so far, in detail. Yeah, I suspect the transfer case, but perhaps your issues are probably a combination of more than one drive train issue. If you can visually see a slight wobble on drive shaft, then that can't be good. As you may know, during off road adventures, hitting the driveshaft on rocks, etc can end up bending it, which in turn affect the uni's and diffs. There might be a way to test the driveshaft for such damage using a backyard method.
Of course, if it's bad enough, you don't need any methods, a visual inspection is enough.
So, make sure the wobble is real and not an optical illusion. It's not too hard to find whether the uni joints are bad, as the bad ones usually have a slight play that you can feel.
If the drive shaft is bad, I'm not sure they are repairable. Google to see if they are fixable, and see the repair manual.
BTW, replacing uni joints are fairly easy and they are usually dirt cheap. Only special tool is the circlip plier, which is usually a cheap tool. I usually get uni's from Bearing Wholesalers(usually cheaper than Burson). If the driveshaft is bent, you might be looking at getting a one from a wrecker.

So, give yourself lot of credit. In the midst of a lot happening, you're finding the drive and energy to get cracking and fix your car and work and etc etc. So, you are doing good.

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Originally Posted by 4bye4

Never had any experience with the hubs - but love this write up. I wish I had that sense of humour when I pressure washed my engine and had to replace the alternator.

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I've been pressure washing the engine once every few months for years now. Never had alternator issues, so far. Reconditioned the alternator few years back, but didn't think I stuffed it up by washing it, but could've been.
I usually cover the dizzy with a plastic bag before the wash, but that's about all the precautions I take, other than disconnecting the battery earth lead. Yours is more susceptible to damage, probably 'cos it's a diesel one. From now on, I'll covering up the A/C pump and the alternator, before I wash the engine.
I reckon it's a good idea.

Just 'discovered' you transmission is actually auto. As you may know, autos need much more TLC than manual trannies. If you haven't serviced it for a while and there's no record of the previous owner's service history, it might be a good idea to look into it as well.
Personally, I stay away from autos 'cos i prefer less maintenance as well as less repairs when it comes to trannies. Tranny is the only thing that I haven't touched(other than oil change) in my car, and I'm hoping to stay that way for the rest of my life. :)
Having said that, clutch failure in manual trannies isn't that uncommon either. Mine's going ok so far.

Another thing just came to my mind is that since you've opened up the hub, you could possibly have a good look at the wheel bearings as well. If you haven''t serviced them, it's a good idea to get proper HTB grease and grease both inner and out wheel bearings and adjust the bearing play. When I did mine couple of years ago, the wheel alignment improved a lot(there was slight edge wear on tyres), as well as general feeling on high speed.

Ok it's definitely either the transfer case or the uni closest to case on rear shaft.. I'm pretty certain but not certain enough to say that it's 100% confirmed.

The rubber mallet fix has held and the auto hub is working as it should. I am certain that it was the initial cause for any follow on issues.

I Sussed out the tail shaft and uni joints and whilst there was a little grime within normal ranges there was no play and unis feel nice and solid. What appeared to be elliptical spin was possibly a slight warp in what looks like a plate / outside of a spacer near the companion flange for the rear. Will do a goPro inspection and assess. The more I watch the vid referenced later in this post and think about the logic of cause and effect it can really only be either hopefully a uni or more likely damage in the case.

The fluid leak it's had for a while has reappeared so I've wiped the lot down and will go for a spin shortly and see if I can track source it's either transfer case or transmission but I'm reasonably certain the former.

The transmission seems fine and the fluid is nice and clean and at correct levels hot and cold so my hypothesis about having two shafts spinning in the case albeit not engaged with each other due to the locked hub for an unknown period of time which has overloaded one or more of the bits that does some important stuff requiring spinning and gears and notches and friction being cactus is becoming more and more likely.

Something or things in the case have undergone a career change and now sing rather than operate as per their original design.... That the Singing is akin to a 4 cylinder victor mower with 2.5 broken cylinders and a 4" straight through exhaust is neither here nor there...

The issue occurring only under load and in gear rev range between around 1900 and 3000 rpm in any gear further supports it being a rotational element that when within the range is not engaging correctly. The leaking fluid around the area of the front shaft would suggest front shaft or front shaft bearing however this occurs when front shaft not engaged so the more I think about it and the cause I've identified the more I think that because I was essentially running 2x 2wd without a gear or clutch engaged between the 2 drives to maintain synchronicity that I have essentially started butchering the clutch gear, front drive sprocket or the chain itself has been stretched.

If however there are separate issues and the following may apply...
I have a leak of transfer fluid as a seal has gone because of the auto hub issue and
I have a damaged but semi functional rear uni joint causing slack no slack on the chain at specific rev range same as in the video but due to the rear uni.

In the service manual to even drop the transfer case there is exhaust removal involved so if I estimated this as a 5 hour job it means it's a 10 hour yes? By the way I'm working solo....in a friends garage with most required tools and limited funding (hence the diy)...

I watched the YouTube vid (2003 GU Nissan Patrol Transfer Case Noise - by David Smith) and he has his case part disassembled on vehicle and looking at the vid and a noise at a specific rev range which is when the chain reaches a certain speed it begins to lift off, his was an issue of the lift altering the uni joints angle on the front shaft and then causing a slack no slack issue - he resolved by installing a double cardan joint in front shaft and resolves - I however removed the front shaft and still had my noise so not same issue although it does have a 3" lift.

So that isolates my issue to case back to rear - it's not rear diff.

I suspect I'm going to have some pretty ordinary component damage and may be better off sourcing an entirely new case. I'll need to finish diagnosing the issues and assess doability before I take that step.

So in short I've narrowed it down to between transfer case and first uni on rear shaft. There are 2 scenarios I've narrowed it down to. One is that there is internal damage to gears, teeth, bearings etc in the transfer box and Two is that I have an oil seal or similar leak as well as a uni joint issue.

Is my reasoning sound?

Results of leak inspection by driving and of confirming elliptical rear shaft spin which would indicate uni to follow shortly, I may just replace the uni anyhow and see if that resolves anything - worst case I have a new uni!

Remove rear shaft and check Uni's for tight spots, you could even get the balance checked.

Yes, there are places where you can get your rear shaft tested for balance. The shaft is precision balanced like the crank shaft.
Any damage to it can cause all kind of weird outcomes in the drivetrain. Uni's are NOT too hard to diagnose from underneath.
They usually show a slack that you can feel half of the time. If you suspect rear uni's, replace them. They are pretty cheap to replace. Yeah, I would definitely get the shaft tested or do a backyard straightness test with a precision ruler, level or something.
Greasing of all the grease point with nipple is a must for the well being of the drivetrain. I use an el cheapo bulk loading grease gun, works fine.
Make sure you mark the flange orientation spots and put it back the way it was.

Not sure how you noticed the slight wobble of front end of the rear driveshaft.
Assuming you haven't done it below mentioned way, I would do it.
Jack up the rear and properly choke up the front(Make sure 4WD is not engaged and the auto hubs don't engage by themselves)
Put the vehicle on drive and let the rear spin and watch the driveshaft spinning from underneath.
If you see any wobbling of the driveshaft that way, it's usually good indication it needs attention.
Such tests need serious precautions if you're doing it solo, like making sure not to go under the car while it running, and making sure there's a good strong wall in front of the car, etc etc.
Also, make sure you use enough jacks and jack stands.
Another test you can do is, while the rear is up(or not) take the rear driveshaft out, then put on drive and hit the speeds and the transmission temperatures that you mentioned originally where it starts the noise issue. This would conclusively isolate whether the real culprit is the transfer box/transmission or the driveshaft/uni's. If the noise is result of combined drivetrain slack, then it may not isolate a single issue, but would still help a lot. You can do the same test for front drive shaft as well.

Again your detailed support is sincerely appreciated...

Ok so I guarantee you I am thoroughly safe, my best mates nickname for me is safety Dave.

The wobble identification was when I had the whole beast up on stands (4t) stands my buddy has for his flatbed. I put it in gear and watched but this was after hours of doing other diagnostics etc. that being said I'm a modern bloke and I manufactured a goPro mount and then did a lap of the block this afternoon.

I'll post the video later but the good bit aside from at the nor net not having viewed the vid on a big screen to determine shaft balance is that the audio is awesome and I am now convinced the noise is the transfer chain.

I'll try and post later....

I'm going to drop the shaft and do a detailed inspection as well so may as well replace unis then.





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