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My 165watt folding solar panel came with a 10amp PWM solar regulator,
I have seen on ebay that the exact one can be purchased for only 20 bucks,
If i were to purchase a better one or different one could i then make the panels more efficient,
PWM v MPPT ? whats the difference,
Any feedback would be great,
Cheers
Tonks.
If you drop Cuppa a pm or wait a bit, he will be your man. He helped me out heaps with solar setup. I can go bush a week on mine running a 80lt fridge and Aldi coffee m/c and was no were near running out of power.
Steve
I bought a Suntrans 20A reg for my panels I had to replace the cheap reg that came with the panels. I also chucked the shoe string 10m lead that came with it and made a new one with 6b&s cable. Much much better it was.
Yes I would get a larger MPPT reg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonks
10 Amp PWM is a tad small for that size panel as at peak solar it will be at nearly 100% capacity.
The best way to look at Regs is like this(not exactly technically correct but easier to understand and simpler to type).
Solar Panels in good sunlight put out much higher voltages than 12 volts
Lets say the panel is producing 16 volts at 8 amps
PWM, is like a simple voltage reg which is why they are so cheap.
They limit voltage and pass current
They take the 16 volts 8 amps from the panel and drop it to 12 volts 8 amps and throw away the surplus.
MPPT is kinda like a DC/DC current step up device so more complex.
They use the same input of 16 volts 8 amps and use the surplus volts to add a bit more current so they maximise the amps at the output to 12 volts 10 amps.
Hence the name Max Peak Power Tracking, they track the peak power they can get from the input and produce it at the output.
The panels deliver the same power in both cases, it is just that the "better" reg can use it more efficiently.
I stress the above is not exactly correct or real world figures just easiest way to get your head around it.
In your case a 20 amp MPPT reg would definitely deliver more power.
The more sun the better efficiency, I'd guesstimate about 12 to 15% at peak solar IE direct sunlight, correct angle between 9 am/3pm in summer months.
If your leads are poo and you get good quality cable and keep them reasonably short you might get as much as 20% more useable power but that would be the best you could expect
Yes you can improve greatly on the cheap ‘throwaway’ reg supplied with your panel. A few things to consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonks
1. Regs fixed to the rear of panels are not in a good place. A reg close to the battery being charged will be noticeably more efficient.
2. A better reg will be more efficient & will treat your battery more kindly extending it’s life.
3. PWM v MPPT? what’s the difference - on many cheap MPPT regs the reg has MPPT printed on the front - that’s about it! On better quality MPPT regs they are better at squeezing a bit more intoyour battery in poor solar conditions, mainly early or late in the day, but expect to pay a lot more for one that actually does this. My view is that a mid priced PWM reg is a better option than a cheap or mid priced MPPT reg. MPPT is a good thing, but like oils aint oils, MPPT aint MPPT. On most cheaper regs it is either a waste of time or non existent other than on the deceptive label.
4. If having to choose between a PWM reg with a battery temp sensor & an MPPT without, I would always go for the one with a temperature sensor. Temperature compensation will make a significant difference to both efficiency & battery life. Some regs have the sensor built into the reg, this is ok if the reg is close to the battery (& subject to the same temps), but one that has a remote sensor at the battery is far better.
5. MPPT is particularly useful if the user is wanting to use higher (than 12v) panels to charge a 12v battery.
6. Regs can cost anything from under $10 to many hundreds of dollars. All will ‘work’, but some will work better than others, but you do pay more for ‘bells & whistles’ i.e. One with display will cost more than one with just a couple of LED lights. The more configurable the reg the more it will cost. The more info it gives the more it will cost.
For those not interested in knowing what is going on a basic mid priced model with no readout will be just as efficient & treat batteries just as well as ‘bells & whistles’ models. Depends on what you want.
7. Changing the skinny cables supplied with panel should be changed to more substantial ones. This will make a significant difference to efficiency. Thickness required depends upon length of cable/wattage of panels.
Different folk have different preferences regarding brands, but I think that the mid priced Morningstar regs with temperature compensation (Prostar) are good value & quality....... with one proviso. The ones with only LED lights to indicate state of charge tend to show ‘Red’ rather early. One with a digital readout showing actual battery voltage is worthwhile if you can afford the extra. (or fit a separate voltage meter, or carry a dmm & know how to use it). Cheaper still are Morningstar Sunsaver models, but these have no temperature compensation (not so good). Morningstar underate their regs, meaning that a 10 amp one will be able to make use of any higher peak (freak) input your panel may produce (in very specific circumstances).
Lastly, if you think there is any chance you might get an extra panel at some point down the track it is worth getting a regulator with the capacity to handle that extra panel now. For only what you have a 10Amp one will suffice, just. If buying a Prostar the 15 amp model would be the go, the 30 amp model would allow for expansion down the track.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningstar-ProStar-15A-12-24V-Solar-Controller-Basic-/291206176907?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item43cd3da08b&_uhb= 1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningstar-ProStar-15A-PS15-M-Charge-Controller-/321478368967?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item4ad99a9ec7&_uhb= 1
or if not wanting to spend quite so much this reg is one I know plenty of folk have used successfully, & allows for adding more panels & at a good price & with a readout of battery voltage, solar voltage & solar amps coming in. Note that the ad says that the teperature sensor available for an extra $30 shuts off charging if the battery overheats. I am unsure if this is correct or not. If it is, it is not the same as temperature compensation - which alters the charging voltage according to battery temperature. It may however be a statement resulting from the advertiser’s lack of understanding.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SOLAR-REGULATOR-30A-12-VOLT-30AMP-PANEL-CHARGE-CARAVAN-BOAT-4WD-CAMPING-freeship-/271564507972?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item3f3a818b44&_uhb= 1
If buying one of these last ones, make sure once you have it to check the fuse & buy a spare to carry with you. A mate spent ages trying to work out why his one suddenly started doing odd things after using it for a couple of years. Eventually he was told to replace the fuse & all was well again. (More expensive/better regulators will have auto reset, rather than a fuse, the real cheapies are easily ‘fried’ in certain circumstances).
EDIT. The Suntrans that Mudski bought also seems a reasonable compromise. It is a copy of the Steca PR2020 ($190), which is a copy of the BP GCR.(or vice versa). I have the Steca version which has done a good job for me. It does have temperature compensation, although only in the regulator itself. My one has always read 0.3v under battery voltage, even though mounted close to the batteries with sufficienly thic cable (i.e. Voltage drop between batteries & reg not the issue). This underreading has always been 100% consistent, so is not something I have any concerns about....... just means there is always slightly more in the battery than what the regulator readout is telling me.
In light of ET’s post (made whilst I was still writing) some clarification is needed, lest our posts combined confuse.
The main aspect where I differ with ET is in my recommendation for a PWM regulator.
The reason for this is that I believe that to get a good quality MPPT reg as ET describes would mean spending as much (& probably more) than the cost of the panel. I stand to be corrected on this, prices for quality may have dropped since I last looked. However if I am correct, spending the extra on another panel would give better returns than spending it on the regulator.
All MPPT regs are PWM, (Pulse Width Modulation this is a far more accurate ‘electronic version’ of the crude on/off switching found in the very cheap regs).
The MPPT function is in addition to this. ET suggests that this can make a difference of 12 to 15% going into your batteries during peak solar input (middle of the day).
Those percentages are consistent with my understanding (as opposed to the 30% claimed by some manufacturers) BUT, & it is a qualified but, because it is based not on my first hand experience, but on the experience of technically qualified folk I know who have used top shelf MPPT regulators (BlueSky) ‘on the road’ & across the world over a period of years & kept logs, that it is at either end of the day & in less than optimum solar conditions where these ‘extra percentages’ are seen. In reality an extra 15% of not very much .... is not very much...... but better than nothing. I have doubts about the usefulness in average Australian conditions. Usefulness in the UK (for example) is much higher. Consequently, with the exception of allowing for the use of cheaper, higher voltage panels, I see MPPT as more of a marketing gimmick than a real world improvement over PWM only regulators.
I've used Morningstar regulators for over 10 years and they have been excellent. Have one 30A controlling the 200 watts of solar on the CSU.
Thanks Guys,
Really appreciate the good feedback,
Cheers
Tonks
I pretty much agree with Cuppa, if you get an MPPT reg make sure it is a genuine MPPT. :bigthumbup:
I use an MPPT on my camping panels as I like to get as much juice as I can when I can.
In all other applications where the panels are floating, not operating anywhere near max output or just doing maintenance charging etc then PWM is more than adequate
The main issue is that a 1 line question can generate a 30 page answer as there are so many variables :icon_driving:
I’m told that even genuine MPPT regs vary in how good they are. It is apparently dependent upon the algorithms used to do the calculations they use. Some work better than others. Generally the more you pay the better you get, mainly because more time has gone into the design & programming.
If cost was secondary I would choose quality MPPT over quality non MPPT. However I am quite happy to have a ‘balanced’ non MPPT system which has brought the batteries to float by early afternoon each day. If I had insufficient solar to replace what had been drawn from them during every 24 hour cycle, then having a system capable of putting as much as possible in would become more important. In those circumstances the aim would be to extend a stay at camp rather than to have a system capable of being sustainable indefinitely.
As it is I have 3 systems, each with different regs, two PWM (Steca PR2020 & Morningstar Tristar 45) & one MPPT Redarc BCDC1240. All are ‘balanced’ systems which I generally expect to be floating between mid day & 2pm, if not earlier. The one which seems to do best in low light conditions is actually the Steca one, but this has to do with the Solarex panels used with it. The ‘Morningstar system has all Kyocera panels, & the ‘Redarc system’ has a mix of ebay sourced panels. The older Solarex panels will start charging shortly after dawn, whereas all the others can be up to 90 minutes later before they start charging. The early charging Solarex (2 x 60w @24v) might be pushing 0.5A into the batteries for an hour & a half (equivalent of 3 ah @ 12v) whilst nothing is going into the other systems. Not huge figures, just more variables! The batteries in the two non MPPT systems (both in our bus) are now over 8 years old & giving good service. I keep thinking they must kark it soon, but they just keep on keeping on.
Once again intended usage & preparedness to compromise are the major factors which must dictate the chosen setup. Unfortunately it is all to common for the opposite to be the case.... frequently a cause of disappointment & frustration.
TLDR.... as per cuppas suggestion donkey's ago I bought the suntrans and change my supply lead as I found even in good sunlight the 180w panels weren't up to scratch. After changing the two, albeit not the best but at an affordable rate, and still mounting the reg on the back of the panel. The difference was outstanding.
I could have spent more and mounted the reg at the battery but I didnt but it still made a massive improvement. Its all different now my setup but the last setup work great for the money I spent.
TLDR - ha ha I learned something today! :)
Geez! I knew something cuppa didn't. :D You learn something everyday hey mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuppa
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudski
........tsdr ;)
Yeah but you did....lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuppa
hey guys been reading the comments on here and just wondering if this mppt item on ebay is a waste or will do the job. im running a 120w panal and a 200panal and yeah this may be over kill but we run a few things. the reason this regulator appeals to me is it seems user friendly in the way that all I would have to do on my camper is open the toolbox and have a look at the power input and the amount being drawn out to see if im sucking out more then whats going in. so if anyone in the know could let me know if this would be a worthy purchase that would be great thankyou. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/30A-MPPT-...item4856f77a42
I'm currently doing my head in to find a good regulator MPPT 20 maybe 30A any suggestions I can look into?
I'm no expert but cuppa a long time ago suggest for me to upgrade my reg on my panels I had to Suntrans mppt reg. Even though I still had the reg on the panels, I also upgraded the spaghetti that was used for wire to 6 mm solar cable and the difference was outstanding. It actually would charge in even partial sunlight. Whereas before they were useless, but only if there was full sunlight they would actually work.
Might not be the best reg, but for the money it was well spent.
Just thinking your probably looking for something a lot better than the Suntrans. Good reg for people on a budget though.
If you want top quality MPPT Blue Sky Energy has a very good reputation. Their prices seem to have dropped since I last looked at them too. I have have no experience of them myself but a friend who is very into the technical side of such things tells me that the development which has gone into producing the charging algorithms is about as good as it gets. He has used one worldwide & found it made a significant difference in winter in the UK, but far less so here, although does provide a small increase in the charge into his battery bank earlier & later in the day. I would suggest that Blue Sky are the ‘benchmark’. How much better they are in terms of performance, reliability & longevity than something like the Suntrans is difficult to quantify.
http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/prod...ar_boost_2000e
http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/uplo...e_Overview.pdf
This Morningstar MPPT reg is the 30 amp MPPTversion of the 45 amp non MPPT reg I’ve been using for the past 8+ years & I have been very happy with it.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningst...item43c899eb3e
If MPPT is not essential to you I recommend this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningst...item43c67442c8
or
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningst...item43cf9ac887
I continue to believe that quality solar regs without MPPT, but with the connections for remote battery temperature sensing & temperature compensation are a far better option for your batteries than the cheap MPPT regulators & that if squeezing those few extra amp hours into your battery each day is really important, that a slightly larger solar panel will achieve the same result. Given the choice between temperature compensation & MPPT, temperature comensation wins hands down (& will also squeeze as much extra into your battery as MPPT in many Australian conditions).
Thanks cuppa for the recommendations, I do like the morning star units but am in 2 minds about the price vs the frequency we will use it. I think I can justify up to $250 personally ATM, sorry I should have specified!.
we would only need 20 amp unit but I'm upgrading my work ute to a truck and will be putting solar and an inverter etc on it and was thinking of having these panels removable to take camping also hence a 30 amp unit
However the 45amp unit (2nd last link you posted) might be the go for the work truck and I can just make it easily removable..and take it camping also at work expense..
This blue sky unit looks like good value for an extra 29$ On top the 2000e unit ?
http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/prod...ar-boost-3000i
Would you think this would be a better option than the Tristar 45a
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningst...d=700341249944
Quote:
Originally Posted by megatexture
Hard to say. Both require the additional battery temp sensor.
The Blue Sky appears to be slightly more configurable without use of a computer than the Morningstar, but both are pretty good in that respect. Having greater ‘configurability’ isn’t much use unless you know what you are doing though.
Both have been around for a few years.
Depends upon how important MPPT is to you.
I would find it a difficult choice - to go with MPPT or to stick with a unit I have have used extensively & know & like.
Both have a 5 year warranty.
Maybe your choice might end up being around which is the easiest to install in a removable way.
Best I can suggest is that you have a read of their manuals & decide which you feel most comfortable with.
http://www.morningstarcorp.com/wp-co...ual.04.EN_.pdf
http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/uplo...SE_SB3000i.pdf
I've just had a flip through the manuals and yea the blue sky looks a bit easier but once disconnected it may go back to factory settings, and the camping settings will be different to the truck I would assume. Whereas the Tristars dip switches may be easier to quickly change to the desired settings.. I'm too tired to be reading all these manuals lol
Cuppa have you heard much of victron units ? Like this one http://www.springers.com.au/product/...MPPT-Regulator
Only reason I ask is these guys at springers recomended these units over the Morningstar units.
Victron make high quality gear. I’ve only ever had a Victron pure sine inverter. It is three times the weight of the same wattage one it replaced. It’s only a 350w one, but I have tested it continuously running for almost an hour with almost a 500w load & it didn’t falter. I am impressed with it. Victron gear has been around for a long time & has always been high end gear. I think they are Swedish. All that said, I think that manufacturing solar regulators is a relatively recent development for them. It was only a few months ago I first heard of them. They have long done big inverter chargers some with solar capability, but these much smaller MPPT units are I believe a relatively new venture. I’m sure their quality will be high, but, in my mind at least, they are yet to be proven.Quote:
Originally Posted by megatexture
I’m wondering if Victron are now trying to get into a different market. Not so long ago Victron stuff was only available from around half a dozen places in Australia, but a quick google now shows many more places offering these Blue Solar regs, & the price seems lower than I would have expected for a 50amp MPPT, let alone a Victron one.
Springers, are a very reputable company, & would feel sure they would give good after sales service if it were needed. Usually I would expect their prices to be at the higher end of the scale, but their price on these is cheaper than any available on ebay.
If it suits your portability requirements better than the others then I’d expect you would be happy with it. I’ll ask on another forum if anyone has fitted one, & if so I’ll let you know what they have to say.
the sales assistant said they are a major distributer of them to other stores so possibly have good buying power to get the lower price and yes he said they were Swedish, the in store price is actually 20% off atm also so I’m seriously considering this unit. it also has alot of room for growth being a 50a unit lol
They only had 15a and 50a models in store but said they can order others in so I may inquire about the 30a unit .
I do think the 50 is a bit much but as a one off order the 30 may be higher priced making the 50 bettter value .. http://www.victronenergy.com/solar-c...lers/mppt0030/
Only responses I’ve had so far on the other forum comment that they look like they might be hard to set up & be less configurable than some in regard to output. (Particularly important if lithium batteries are a future possibility).
Have a look at the manual. I had a quick look through it & I must admit did not find it especially reader friendly.
I also prefer a proper LCD readout rather than having to count flashing LED’s & then interpret them.
http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...E-ES-SE_A6.pdf
Personally I rate having a good manual quite highly, it’s something I carry in the vehicle, & have needed to refer to it on several occasions, not just at installation. I reckon the Tristar manual is very good.
I don’t think I’d get a Victron, but that doesn’t mean it’s no good. Perhaps you should get one & be a ‘guinea pig’ & report on how you find it.
Thanks I love being a guinea pig but I won't be getting one as it states in the trouble shooting pages...
Problem: Charger not functioning.
Possible cause: polarity Reversed
Solution: Non replacable fuse blown. Return to VE for repair......
No thanks, who makes anything with a non replaceable or resettable fuse and there is no other mention of any fuse in the specs