WTF?????Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
Those yanks are definetly special
................on the road
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WTF?????Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
Those yanks are definetly special
................on the road
$50 sounds like a bargain 👌🏻
Im a certified advanced rigger /dogman. What we are taught as a certified rigger in Australia is to attach a shackle hand tight then back it off 1/4 to half turn. This is done regardless of the size of the shackle. The reason for this was explained by an old rigger with 40 yrs experience who taught me was to stop the threads binding under load and not being able to release the pin at all.
All gear is to be inspected before use obviously. This includes the shackle itself. It should not be warped/ bent or elongated in any way. The pin should be straight and threads in good condition.
It is also good practice for the shackle pins to be moused. To prevent the pin either coming undone or in result of a catastrophic failure bits flying all over the joint.
Yes i have seen them fail but its extremely rare. However i have started to see many eye bolts pop up lately on bull bars and rear bars. No way in hell would i use them. Any kind of side load and they ping off. Even the wide base ones. Think about it.... whats a tow ball shaped like? Looks kinda like an eye bolt without a hole though the guts of it huh.
Like the evil twin said and i agree with him. Its one of my pet hates seeing a couple of 4.7 ton shackles hanging off the recovery points. What are they there for in suburbia? Do you know how much damage it will cause if one come off and slid across the road and got kicked up by a tyre?
Personally i hate D shackles and will never use them. I always use a bow shackle. They are a bit wider to fit your slings on and can disperse the load over a slightly wider area of the shackle itself. D shackle should only be pulled in 1 direction which is straight.
When i first started getting into 4x4 i was appalled by the practices that many people are guilty of. Some have no clue, some have no care to learn and some just dont have common sense or an interest in self preservation.
I would love to know how many people throw their snatch strap in the bin after 4 or 5 recoveries too as that is what is usually recommended from what i have read.
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What a brilliant ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by AB
Oh my god...
A steel "pin" of that size/diameter & length is incredibly strong. The real danger is in using the ball as the connection, as they are not designed as a "shock point".Quote:
Originally Posted by MudSlut
Hi all,
Just north of Penrith here in Western Sydney, we have a area know as The Drop Zone, a RAAF Cargo Air Drop Training Area that is well know for unauthorised use by 4WD'ers and Trail Bike Rides. There is a local 4WD Assistance Facebook page where 4WD'ers can request assistance, there are usually several request each week for assistance at various areas around Sydney, and usually 1 or 2 request each month for the Drop Zone.
The last serious incident I know off at the Drop Zone was back in 2018 I think, when we had a young fella hit with the Tow Ball while recovering a bogged vehicle, I can't recall what his outcome was, but know a it was a large response from Emergency Services including the CareFlight Rescue Helicopter for him, but on the night it was stated the Tow Ball was the culprit.
There are heaps of YouTube video's showing the bad outcomes of using tow balls, most by people who have no idea just how unsafe it is. In my 16 years or so Covering Off-road Racing as a Recovery Team Member or 4WD Challange Events as a Event Medic, most of the incidents I have seen, has been the failure of poor engineered recovery points, old equipment . . . or inferior equipment . . . . not many incidents are from incorrect use of equipment, but at these Event's the Event Staff and participants are very Safety Aware and proactive . . .
I consider myself somewhat lucky, I spent 9 years in the Army Reserves driving M113 APC's and Land Rovers, consider myself to have been well trained in 4WD and Recovery Operations and have a very health respect for recovery equipment. I have run a number of Remote Area First Aid Courses with 4WD Clubs, and it's not that uncommon to come across people who don't know a Tow Ball is unsafe as a Tow Point in recoveries.
I believe those who are seriously injured or killed by flying tow ball are those who are new to 4WD'ing, or who really don't know any better, thinking if the Tow Ball can tow a heavy Trailer or Caravan, then it should be fine to tow a car out of a bog. In a couple of attempted recoveries I have come across, most of those who are doing things unsafely, generally have no idea.
Someone in the first couple of reply post of this thread, asked where 4x4 Victoria got their Statistics from. All vehicle incidents that Cause Serious Injuries or Fatal become a Police Matter, doesn't have to be on a Public Road, and due to Police involvement it become a recordable statistics.
This guy constantly uses towballs to snatch with. Look around the six minute mark. He has different sizes for recovery of customers trailers fitted on the bar. Maybe they're super hardened? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPNHINEDyU
I think hes old school with very bad habits,Quote:
Originally Posted by mudnut
Its worked once why wouldnt it work twice.
Everyone one should regard recovery points , straps
and older winch cable as throw away items. They were
never meant to last forever regarless of how good you look after them.
Story I heard a few years ago two mates retired about the same time
kitted up for the big LAP. Two new Landcruiers fully kitted what could go wrong.
Up north on a secondary track one gets bogged , you see whats coming eh.
Out with the strap , over the tow ball low two and off we go. Ball snaps off
through the windscreen ,driver ,head rest , back window and inbeds in a tree.
A simple 4x4 course would have made that a trouble free recovery and a great lap
NEVER USE A TOWBALL EVER
This idiot is supposed to be a professional! This is what he does for a living. He'll tell you he's done hundreds of these and never had a problem - until he does.
All he really had to do was let a bit of air out of the tyres and he could have easily driven it out.
I end up screaming at the screen, "Let Ya Bloody Tyres Down A Bit!"Quote:
Originally Posted by BillsGU
Don't think I've ever seen a more ridiculous or unnecessary recovery. That vehicle could have been driven out with minimal effort. Joke.
I was cringing with this recovery. The forces exerted on those towballs must've been extreme. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH4wnjfbK2s
his is an interesting setup that is for sure. Cringe worthy certainly. That is the second one of his i have watched and he used the same recovery tongue. the fact that it has a tow ball involved is hideous but in this particular instance im not sure he is in the same danger that we are familiar with.Quote:
Originally Posted by mudnut
In both videos he places the strap over the top of the top ball and then behind Both side balls. This is a very very different setup to what we know here. I am not smart enough to consider the tensile force involved here but logically the force is being pulled down through the square tube and behind the 2 side balls..... I hate it but not sure it is dangerous. it is almost a half hitch knot over the top. But i hate it.
What i particularly hate though is the sight of a ball in this video at all. It really does lend the watcher to believe that a single ball is a viable recovery device. I would be interested to read what @the evil twin has to say here actually
They actually use the towball on this recovery. Lucky the stuck jeep owner had his handbrake off at 12:50 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekEtKeXrjvI
After watching this, I sent him an email containing the image of the Landcruiser tailgate.
The guy in the previous videos talks about recoveries using his tow balls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcv2wy5RKeI
Sorry. He still doesn't convince me. How hard would it be to have a proper connector that fits into the receiver. Or do what I normally do - don't use fittings at all - just put the end of the strap in the receiver and put the pin through the holes and through the strap loop. The fewer bits and pieces you have in a recovery means there are less bits to break.
As a "professional" he should be setting a better example.
I am not advocating use of a towball as a hitch point where the towball is anchored with a thread into a receiver. This type of setup puts rise to potential failure of the treaded element from shear and/or shear and a bending moment as the line of action is raised to the thinner section of the towball. Most towballs have an undercut at the base of the thread where it matches the 50mm head, and this becomes the stress riser, especially as depth of undercut, radius size and surface roughness are unknown.
Additionally we have no idea what the towballs are manufactured from, could be recycled chinese bicycle seats - my towball is from a HT 4140 steel, but I would think a lot are made from a far lower grade.
What I would say is that his towball setup looks like its got 3 different sized balls, welded to a solid receiver bar, and fixed to the front of the towbar hitch using a standard 16mm pin. I would say, his weakest point in all this is either the 16mm pin in a double shear loading or the strap itself. The welded towballs are essentially 50mm pegs and the stress is going thru 3 circumferential welds into the solid hitch. The loading diagram for his hitch is not straight forward to determine actual stresses, however it is possible to get this analyzed using a Strand Stress Analysis package for certainty as it takes away the interpretation of the engineer. We don't know the materials, weld detail, weld procedure or welder certification, NDT taken place etc - there is a lot missing in this picture.
So, is the setup any weaker than using a slot in hitch on our standard towball set-up - I doubt it as ultimately the pin is the weakest element. Even if the receiver was a tube, worst case a thin walled tube, its 'probably' still going to fail on the tow strap rather than the hitch - thats my analysis anyway. On the surface it probably looks worse than it is. Whilst the guy using it claims to assess the loading conditions of the recovery - had to laugh at the h/d ear ring he pulled out for use though - and he does execute his recovery operations in seemingly the worst way, I think he is no worse off than what we do when we use a standard hitch and 16mm pin.
Final parting comment, Don't use a snatch strap on a towball for recovery.
I applaud him for helping those in need as his paid job, but he does use towballs on some of the recovered vehicles after a rudimentary look around it. Unfortunately it just takes one out of a hundred to go wrong. Other people watch his videos and think it's OK to follow his example.
That right there is the biggest problem. The Professional providing the example to the Pleb. The Pleb cant tell the difference here and will make the Fatal decisions and the Coroner wont care that the Professional provided a Bad Example.Quote:
Originally Posted by mudnut
Kinda what i said above but with Bigger words and More brain cells.... ^^^^What He Said ^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeBee
I think if your publishing something to a worldwide audience and its your profession it's a no brainer really. His three ball thingy maybe OK but have seen him on many occasions hooking up to tow balls of vehicles to be recovered, not just on ice with no resistance as he says in Mad Mats vid but giving big American trucks a good yank (no pum intended lol) . .
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I finally got my winch fitted up a few weeks ago after it sat in the shed for 3 months or so (although now we are in lockdown and so my only "recovery" so far has been to winch my son in from the driveway across the street so that I at least had some tension on the drum!! I am ex-army and have been involved in engineering numerous vehicles with self-recovery winches and also dedicated Recovery Vehicles. Army has a whole trade stream (Recovery Mechanics AKA Recce Mechs) who's job is to recover vehicles whether they be bogged, battle damaged, or have a malfunction. Army has a Recovery Mechanics Handbook that is basically their bible for recovery and it's actually got some really good guidance in it. Army does not do dynamic recovery using snatch straps but instead uses winches to conduct controlled recoveries. When planning a recovery the Recce Mechs calculate the total pull required which is dictated by a number of things.
The first one is the Ground Type and depending on the type of ground you get a number to divide the vehicle weight by. From memory for hard ground it's a factor of 25 and for mud (bogged to the floorpan) it's a factor of 1. So you take the mass of the vehicle and divide it by the Ground Factor. For example a 10 tonne vehicle would have a Ground Factor of 500 kg for hard ground and 10 tonne for mud bogged to the axles.
Then there is a damage factor. There are various factors depending on the extent of the damage. From memory there is a factor added for each seized wheel which I think for 10 tonne vehicle is 500 kg per wheel. For example's sake let's say that one axle is locked due to a busted diff so the damage factor is 1000 kg.
Finally there's a gradient factor which is vehicle mass x angle of slope (degrees) / 60 and so for say a 15 degree estimated slope the gradient factor for a 10 tonne vehicle is 2.5 tonne.
So total pull in this example is 10 + 1 + 2.5 = 13.5 tonne
However, there is then a 25% safety factor added and so the total pull required is 13.5 x 1.25 = 16.875 tonne but they round it up to the closest tonne so in this recovery a 17 tonne pull is required.
Then they workout the recovery layout. Let's say they had a 10 tonne winch and so they decide to do a 2:1 recovery. Again I remember this because I have dealt with it a few times (although I was not a Recce Mech) but due to the inefficiencies of the tackle a 2:1 recovery actually only gives you 1.8:1 which in this case meets the requirement.
The dedicated recovery vehicles carry suitably rated chains, sheaves (snatch blocks), and bow shackles to setup the recovery. Initial light tension is applied (once tension is applied, nobody is allowed to step over a recovery rope and at no time is anybody allowed to stand in the "V" formed by a 2:1 recovery) and then all recovery attachments are physically checked by the Operator. The Operator is behind a protective screen and a danger exclusion zone is cleared for 1.5 times the distance between the two vehicles and only after all this is in place can they start winching.
So what are my lessons learnt from this experience (and the ones I will apply when using my winch in anger):
- Always try to do 2:1 recovery where possible to reduce the tension on the winch and the rope (and put up with it being half as fast as a single pull)
- Always determine what the weakest point in the recovery layout is and make sure it's strong enough!!
- Always use rated bow shackles and rated recovery points
- Always use an equalisation bridle and use both recovery points on the front of the vehicle for every recovery
- Always use a damper on the rope in case it does snap
- Keep everybody else well away from the recovery activity
- Check everything at least twice (once after applying initial tension)
- Only use a snatch strap as a last resort and if needed then use minimum recovery speed and rated recovery points
- Never, ever use a towbar for any recovery activity!!!
Once we are allowed out I think I will go out for a familiarisation session and do a couple of winch pulls just to familiarise myself with everything and make sure that everything works OK.....looking forward to it!!
Excellent content, thanks very much.
I am hearing that sort of statement more and more. Some Youtube presenters dealing with 4wds, advocate not using snatch straps at all, or only as a last resort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gags
Thank you for all that knowledge, Big Gags.
The British Army use snatch straps – but only on armoured vehicles. The rules are everyone inside the vehicles and all hatches shut before the snatch is attempted. Because they are heavy vehicles they use seriously large straps – but it is quick and safe if procedures are followed.
Funnily enough I am currently working as a contractor on an Armoured vehicle program. Towing and Recovery Points for armoured vehicles in Australia need to meet a DEF(AUST) standard but that refers to the STANAG 4478 standard and this is no doubt what the UK vehicle recovery points would meet. The STANAG needs each individual tiedown/lifting/recovery point to be strong enough to withstand a force of 1.5 x GVM in the vertical direction (for lifting and for lift-tow) and also in a 22.5 degree cone around a line drawn parallel to the vehicle axis. So each individual point can withstand 1.5 x GVM and when you have for example a 40 tonne armoured vehicle it means that each point is rated for 60 tonne!!! There are also specific clearance angles around the points and specific dimensions of the points (to ensure that the suitably sized A-Frames and tiedown/lifting equipment can be used!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BillsGU
Hi mate, thanks for your input.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gags
Have a look at this thread also as the first section provides some good references for your average 4wdriver relating to some of the math you have applied above.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...e-Fundamentals
I did try sending an Email, with a picture of the Yota tailgate, but I don't think it my Email is working. Anyone want to reply to him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exlh8H4eH-0
lol . . . spent 9 years as a ARes Armoured Corps . . . then 5 Years in RAAF Reserves as a Firefighter . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gags
Did my 'A' Vehicle M113 Drivers Course in 1988, and then my 'B' Vehicle Light Drivers Course in 1989, my 'B' Vehicle Medium Ridged in 1990. The 'B' Vehicle Course to this day, I would have to say has been my 4WD'ing Base knowledge, and for every 5hrs of driving . . . we would had done 1hr of Recovery Operations . . . Tirfor Hand winch, hydrophilic winch, 12/24v electric winch's . . . from mud, sand, creeks, rivers, hills, tank traps, ditches, tree bridge mishaps, side slope recoveries, side roll recovery, vehicle stabilisation etc etc.
Between the 'A' and 'B' vehicles . . . it taught me to respect the capability of my vehicle, look, gauge, find another way, winching is better then braking, as field repairs are a bitch.
The training was next to none, got very dirty, had great fun, and walked away with skills which I still use in my own 4WD activities, in my Firefighting Employment, and in My Medic Rescue Roles, even passing them onto my 21 yr old Son who did his 1st 4WD Winch Recovery this year.
Nice one Grant - if you're in Penrith then I'm guessing you did your Chocco time at Kingswood? I was there for 3 months in 1991 at 133 Sig Sqn as a part of my first year of OJT as an Electronic Technician - nice spot!!
Big Gags Na Mate, by the time I moved to Sydney in 1997 . . . Kingswood had closed down over the period of 1993-94. The only Military facilities left in the Penrith region when I moved up from the South was 1 CAMD at Orchard Hills and 5 Combat Engineers in North Penrith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Gags
Units I seved with were:
5 Years - 8/13th VMR - 4/19th PWLH Albury Wodonga.
1 Year - 5th Combat Engineers North Penrith.
3 Years - 1/15th RNSWL Parramatta/Holsworthy.
5 Years - 22 Sqn City Sydney RAAF Active Reserves - Firefighter - Richmond RAAF Base Fire Section.
My Recruit Course was with 3MD Training Packa, Sig/Gunnery Course was done in house with 8/13th in Wangaratta Vic, My M113 Drivers Course was conducted with 3/9SAMR at El Alamein Port Port Augusta SA, my 'B' Vehicle Course was done in house with 8/13th in Albury, mostly throughout North East Victoria.
It is a Sad Day. 15 year old girl dies when struck by a snapped snatch strap.
Stand clear and clear the safety zone.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...020/09/147.jpg
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...020/09/148.jpg
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http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forum...020/09/155.jpg
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Absolutely devastating for those involved and their families and friends.