Picked up my truck today with the 4L85 fitted (plus some other unrelated work done).
Awesome improvement to driveability... just plain AWESOME.
Yeah it was a lot of cabbage but Pfft the truck is now fun to drive not a chore.
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Picked up my truck today with the 4L85 fitted (plus some other unrelated work done).
Awesome improvement to driveability... just plain AWESOME.
Yeah it was a lot of cabbage but Pfft the truck is now fun to drive not a chore.
What are your revs now on the highway ET?
How is the change between 1st and 2nd that Gecko was whinging about?
Highway revs in 4th with TC locked running 305/70R16 Cooper ST's (near new) at 110 KPH are near enough to 2050 on the tacho.
The speed is dead accurate (triple redundant GPS) but I don't know how accurate the tacho is.
I haven't done the mathematics to see what the RPM should theoretically be.
I have a set of 315/75R16 Hankook MT's going on soon and hope to see around 1850.
I am still getting the feel for the box and it is also a brand new crate box not a reco so it probably deserves a bit of a run in period.
I'm going to sit on my hands for 5,000 K's or so then I'll start dicking with the programming.
If I had to make a preliminary call it would be that the low ratio changes are OK but it drops from 4th to 3rd too early and the TC unlocks to easily for my taste
Update...
Put the 315/75 Hankooks on last night and went for a blatt on the highway and then drove to work this morning in traffic.
RPM at 100 KPH 1725, RPM at 110 KPH 1800.
Bigger drop than I was expecting but Coopers 305/70 are closer to 32's so makes sense I spose.
The vehile manners in traffic are a huge improvement, that heavy clutch was a total PIA
Very, very happy chappy am I... need to do a bit of work on the brakes tho... she doesn't like stopping with those 35's
You taken it for a play in any rough stuff yet?
Has anyone done anything with the exhaust for these engines yet? The exhaust that Brunswick stuck on mine is a 3", but doesn't have mandrel bends in it, so I'm wondering if anyone has changed it out for something larger yet and if there was any improvement noticed.
Yours a Turbo or normally aspirated? Mine is a free running Turbo (no wastegate/BOV or whatever) so has a crossover pipe and dicking with the exhaust too much will affect the Turbo trim.
Dunno if all the Turbo Brunnies are set up that way or not... mind you twin turbos to 3 inch stacks on a Ute with a Duramax or Cummins would be bloody awesome
Mine's the Garret GT35 turbo'd version.
My neighbour is a Turbo engineer actually and he also reckons a twin turbo setup on the Chev would be awesome.
Yeah, I've got no complaints in the torque department either. I'm just about to pull the trigger on the 4L85E install. Out of interest, I was just reading how you can get a custom job done on the 4L80 & 85 to make them six speed too! Used in a lot of US muscle cars and racers by the looks of it.
Got to sort out some sound proofing and some interior stuff first, then get the diffs protected before taking a look at getting the slush box fitted up and sorting my low range for more rock crawling slow work.
Hiya BenK,
Whoever does the install for you ask them about a few things like;
Will they fit the optional harness so you can have "Power" and "Economy" modes
Transmission Cooler placement and
Fan switching (Thermo/Manual/Both).
Also the 4L8x trannies will not lock up the TCC in 1st gear so if you are doing serious low range crawling (which I take it you are from the post) then as you mention, you will def need to suss out a few options like a Manual Lock Up or crawler ratios so you can get away with using second or whatever.
I was reading those articles about the "Pseudo 6 speed" 4L's as well. It kinda made my head hurt a bit and I couldn't understand exactly what they are doing but is seems to involve higher pressure valve bodies and hard lock ups of the TCC.
Might be well worth exploring later.
I toyed with the idea of a 6L to get that awesomely low 1st gear and 2 overdriven ratios but they are a physically much bigger unit and the 4L took enough modding to fit so I said bugger it
I was going to wait a few months before I dick with my Tranny proggies but my fingers are itching to play with the TCC lock up settings in 2nd and 3rd.
That is because Brunnies default settings are with TCC lock up only in 4th.
The down side is you have to be careful as the Yanks reckon if you use TCC to much for engine braking in the low gears the 2nd and 3rd overrun clutches can burn out.
They are talking about seriously more HP and Torque in waaaay heavier trucks than we are tho so I am will ing to give it a go when I get my Tranny Instrumentation sorted out
They don't fit the Power / Economy functions and said it would be extra if you really want it, but that it had very little if any benefits in real life driving.
Fan switching can also be done, and sounds like a good idea, along with a Tranny Fluid Temp gauge.
They did offer a choice of three different ECM's though. The install comes with the standard GM unit but there were two other far more complex modules that can be ordered and fitted if wanted. Cost goes up to about 2 grand for the system from Wholesale Automatics, and it was 1700 for the other one. Not sure I need to get fancy with this though so will probably just stick with the simpler GM version and use their software to tune it up to how I want it.
The Transmission Cooler unit gets mounted up in front of the radiator. Hopefully there is room, it looks pretty jammed to me.
To be honest with you, I am still trying to understand how the Torque Converter Clutch lockup works and how it would be advantageous in gears other than 4th for that overdrive economy. If I fit a reduction gear in the transfer case, and then select First or Second Low, it should cover my 'go-real-slow' needs wouldn't it? Are you referring to the ability to hold it in any gear you want for differing driving conditions?
Going "uphill" is no problem, its the down that may worry you
The 4L trannies "freewheel" in 1/2/3 and in 4th when the TCC isn't engaged and the TPS is 0.
In my vehicle with teh default proggy when you lift the foot it coasts IE you can be doing 80 K's or going down hill and pull the shifter back to 3rd, 2nd or 1st and there is absolutely no engine braking.
The truck keeps coasting along, very disconcerting initially.
The 4L's don't have a gear "hold" setup either so if you select, say 3rd it will shift 1,2 and 3 but not go into 4
In a Tranny that will Hold a gear that is the only gear it will use.
Sooo if you are in say 3rd and going down a hill and lift the foot the TPS goes to 0, the RPM's drop to idleish and the vehicle just goes quicker due to good old gravity
That is why I want to proggy the TCC to softly lock up in 2nd and 3rd
Sh!t, didn't realise that. I tend to rely quite heavily on engine braking as I am sure we all do. I'm going to try and go for a drive in a vehicle fitted up with the 4L85 in the next few days so i'll suss out the whole setup.
Have you got a temp gauge fitted? I take it that if you want the option of running the fan in manual mode, that you must have a gauge to give you the heads up on when it is time to flick it on?
1st gear is no different to any other Auto regards engine braking.
2nd and 3rd are different "out of the box" but only due to the programming as the TCC operation is left up to the user to set up.
The reason for that is the yanks are looking at normal use as being fanging along the road and when you want to slow down you use the brake.
Sooo... they want to let the engine idle at 0 TPS to save fuel.
If you ask the installer they will proggy it for your requirements.
Still researching the various options for temp monitoring and auto switching of the Cooler Fan.
Brunnies are adamant that for 4WD use and light towing the 4L85 with it's larger pump will absolutely eat anything we throw at it.
The Yanks are using more power coupled to 3 to maybe 4 times the loads we are.
Anyway, will probably go with a Watchdog solution or similar with temp readout, fan switchig and overtemp alarm.
Mainly because I cant be stuffed cobbling together my own setup between now and the Simmo trip.
My 2004 3ltr Gu blew up and im looking at putting another engine in. Was looking at 4.2 but its hard and expensive because mine is auto any recommendations on chev engines and a rough price ill be looking at to get 1 fitted. Also im from s.a if anyone knows people who do this kind of work here. Thanks
@ ET... is there much difference between the 4L80E and 4L85E?
4L80
Input Torque 440 Ft/Lbs
Output Torque 885 Ft/Lbs
Vehicle GVM 8,000 Lbs
4 Pinion Gearsets
4L85
Input Torque 480 Ft/Lbs
Output Torque 885 Ft/Lbs
Vehicle GVM 16,000 Lbs
Towing capacity 22,000 Lbs
5 Pinion gearsets
NB specs vary by minor amounts depending on year of manuf and phase of the moon, the above are sort of an average that I found when researching.
I bought the '85 for two reasons.
Firstly it was a brand new crate tranny and secondly I will probably be looking at significantly heavier towing in 4 to 5 years or so
Am waiting to speak to Wholesale Automatics again tomorrow, but I do like the sound of the manual TCC switch as an addition, plus a temp gauge. Was out for a drive today in the forestry tracks and coming back home from any direction into Cairns involves coming down a winding range. Found myself sitting in 3rd for most of it with the odd touch on the brakes. I reckon being able to hold gears going downhill with an Auto would be how I'd want to drive it.
Gecko - have you played with the programming on yours yet?
@ T-roy86 - mate, if a 4.2 is too expensive, then sit down for the pricing on a new chev. If you want to go for a crate TD version, then allow $35K installed, if you go to Brunswick in Perth. I haven't heard of anyone in SA, but there could be someone doing it. Wholesale Automatics will sell you an upgraded Valve Body for your Auto that they reckon will handle the Chev no worries. I think price is around $850, so factor that in as well. Brunswick will do reco motors a whole lot cheaper, and also if the engine is non-turbo'd it will be cheaper again. Have a chat to them about your options if you are interested. Also ring around for insurance BEFORE you do it so you know what you are in for. Most here found Shannon's the cheapest.
A manual lockup is the absolute ducks guts.
I put one on my TB42 Auto and it essentially turns the box into a manual as far as engine braking is concerned and drops the gearbox temp by heaps when towing or down the beach.
There are some circuits around with speed sensing etc etc but I kept it simple.
An "arming" toggle switch on the centre console, an old school foot dip switch on the floor by the left foot rest to engage/disengage and an LED reminder on the dash to show when it was engaged.
All up cost was less than $30
I pulled the trigger on Ebay for an Engine Guardian style dual input temp indication, warning and fan controller... $169 delivered
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181187370...84.m1439.l2649
There are several programs on the net showing TCC lock-up in 2nd and 3rd for the guys doing a lot of towing.
They are using 60 to 70% PWM at 0 TPS ramping down to 0 PWM at 10% TPS.
IE the TCC is almost but not fully locked at 0 throttle but releases by 10%.
They are doing that not so much for engine braking but to keep the revs up for the climb up the other side of the Hill.
The main problem I have with info from America is that most Forums are orientated to using their trucks as haulers not 4WD's in our sense of the activity or fully the other way where they are using them as extreme 4WD
My only concern with the 4L8x series boxes is the Yanks and their discussions with the overrun clutch's burning out if you get too aggressive with Engine Braking IE fully locked TCC with 0% throttle...
BUT...
we aren't using anything like the GVM that they are, indeed, I reckon we may be only 50% or less so the loads on teh clutch packs must be heaps less.
LOL - too much info ET. You are confusing the shit out of me, which isn't hard when it comes to technical stuff... Are you saying that some programs can give 60-70% engine braking when you take your foot off the accelerator, and as you start to accelerate it drops off at the 10% mark?
Manual lockup switch sounds like the plan.
Engine Guardian looks interesting...I'll watch with interest to see what you think.
ROFL... bad habit of mine.
You can program the Lock Up and where it occurs between 0 to 100% of TPS at whatever speed.
The tranny "programs" are presented as tables so you can set (for example) in 2nd gear the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) locks at 0% throttle above 20 KPH
This means that if you are coasting down hill with foot off throttle faster than 20KPH in 2nd the TCC will lock and give you engine braking.
Your next step in the tables might be (still for 2nd gear) 10% throttle above 40 KPH, 20% 40 KPH, 30% 45 KPH, 40% 50 KPH etc
This means that when you open the throttle at the bottom of the hill the TCC now unlocks allowing the Torque Converter to do it's thing.
Now assuming you stay in second and accelerate to, say, 45 KPH and the TPS is 30% or less (IE you aren't flogging up the next hill) then the TCC will lock again.
Push the throttle past 30% or drop below 45 KPH and the TCC will unlock because you obviously want more power.
Unrelated to Chevy's but us patrollers are used to the magic 80 KPH figure.
That is where most of the Patrol Auto's are proggy'd to lock up the TCC in OD if the TPS is telling you it is "cruising"
Just had a yarn with Wholesale Automatics, who actually recommend a rebuilt Nissan RE4 transmission with upgraded Torque Converter and Valve Body as opposed to the Chev unit. They say that the Nissan Auto once upgraded, trounces the 4L80 series gearing for 4wdriving, and also for reliability issues. Will keep researching and am waiting for a bit more info from them.
I was told the same thing. The reason I went with the chev was that it was way cheaper, new and I didn't have to fly,twice, to Melbourne.
@ BenK, have only played around with the CompuShift II a little bit as have no idea really what I'm doing... was hoping to catch up with ET to see what he'd done/recommended.
I'm actually thinking about giving this install a crack myself with a bit of assistance over beers from a mechanic mate. Might force myself to learn about automatics...
Quote today was as follows:
Cost for a Heavy Duty Extreme Fully Reconditioned Nissan 4 Speed RE4R03A Overdrive Automatic Transmission with Heavy Duty Extreme Valve Body & Double Kiln Bronzed Torque Convertor all Pre-dyno Tested is $5100 inc gst.
Comes with: Bell Housing and Filler Tube/Dip Stick
Required Options:
2 X Extra Large Oil Cooler $195 inc gst (each)
5 Meters Of Heavy Duty 10mm ID Cooler Hose $88
4 X Stainless Steel Hose Clamps $12 “set”
6.5L Complete Drive Plate Assembly $195
Factory T.Bar Assembly with Centre Console Assembly (second hand) $540
Automatic Pedal Pad and Plate Box $85
Stand Alone Transmission ECU $1995
The ECU is the Compushift II which is an expensive bit, but adds a lot of options for setting it up right and monitoring everything. Comes with:
*Wiring Harness
*Dash Display/Programmer
*Choose Between Full Manual Or Full Automatic At The Touch Of A Button
*Lock-Up Manual Control for 100% Engine Braking At The Touch Of A Button
*New Inhibitor Switch
*New Revolution Sensor
*Built In Temp Gauge
*Australian Back Up & Technical Support
Not sure where to mount the twin oil coolers though. The area in front of my radiator looks pretty bloody cluttered as it is. Where have you guys got your coolers mounted? I have heard of coolers being mounted beneath vehicles but I'd be wary of airflow and damage issues.
Again looking at the space in front of my radiator. On the Drivers side I have the aircon condenser and in front of it is the engine oil cooler. On the passengers side is a thermo fan for the radiator.
I just went for a spin in a 2004 GU with a Chev and Auto conversion, and in his setup there is no Thermo fan, just his Transmission Fluid cooler, oil cooler and aircon condenser. He has the stock 4L85E and has had it in for about 12 months. He doesn't have a Transmission Oil temp gauge, but claims it has never had an overheating problem. I don't think I like the idea of having no Thermo fan though, and instead I am thinking I'll mock up a dummy tranny cooler for size, and will work on making some brackets to try and fit the cooler between the radiator and the thermo fan before I pull the trigger on doing the auto. Might have to change the Thermo fan out for a slimmer model too, but will look at that as I go.
And while I am at it, I might as well fit that reduction gear in the transfer case too... Hopefully Love Key70 has some more of those 63% gears ready soon.
I have the Engine watch dog on mine as of yesterday...
My coolers are up under the tray with minimal air flow so have a fan fitted.
In the small amount of K's so far with the Fans turned off so I can set the warning temps...
The engine warms up and then doesn;t move more than a few degrees.
The 4L85 with the TCC locked and cruising at 110 KPH sits on 55 degrees (tranny temp not fluid)
Working in traffic and urban stop/go it gets to 65 degrees pretty quick then stabilises at that.
Turning the Fans on doesn't do a thing... this could be because of how the tranny ports the fluid IE I need to find out if there is a thermo arrangement in the tranny controlling fluid paths or if it sends 100% of the fluid thru the cooler no matter what.
I haven't had a big load in the back and I haven't done any loooooong hillclimbs yet
At those temps the Tranny is only just warming up and thats with bugger all airflow thru the cooler
Cheers mate, good info.
With your Auto install, how close does the crossover exhaust (my term) get past the auto pan?
eg. on my manual box it sits like this. I imagine the auto pan gets very bloody close to it or the exhaust has been modified somewhat.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/a...pszegvay7x.jpg
I have had a good look at the space in front of my radiator, and am more inclined to fit the twin oil coolers for the tranny fluid just in behind the bull bar on each side in this space, if I can knock up a couple of brackets. Routing of hoses should be pretty simple I think and I can put a guard below each cooler with a few holes in it, and then add a 6" thermo fan above it to blow back through the cooler....I think....
Front of the vehicle to the left of photo.
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/a...psos9aby7d.jpg
I haven't got my Ute at the moment... it is in getting bar work, steps, scrub bars, panniers etc etc but from memory when I was under there the cross over pipe goes just under the very back of the Torque Converter and the pan for the box is behind the pipe and is also bloody enormous.
The chevy box is quite large and sits back further than the manual box so the cross member has to modified and the tailshaft shortened
Hullo all, I have been a member for a while now, my son & I joined together when he bought his patrol. I have now bought a 4x4 as well, unfortunately not a patrol :), a short wheel wheel base cruiser FRP top with a Brunswick 6.5L conversion done in 2005/6. I was wondering if anyone has had a similar problem to what I have experienced only a few times, problem is, when going around a corner RH down, not accelerating, just steady throttle it suddenly gives a bit of a boost. This has only happened about 3 or 4 times & could be a bit disastrous if the road is a bit wet. i was thinking maybe there is a loose wire on one of the heater coils, I can't think of anything else that would cause something like this in a diesel, the only other thing is I am just imagining this, or just too much lead in the foot as Kev says :). any help will be appreciated.
Thanks guys.
Just a quick bump for ya dad. I think it has something to do with the fact you love the sound of it and you can't help yourself. I know I wouldn't be able to. Lol.
It could have something to do with a loose wire on the injector rail and it not firing on all eight until it connects.
Sent from me using Forum Runner
Is it a full mechanical injector pump? I would imagine so as Brunswick seem to be scared of the electronic version.
Dura max anybody with transmission as well
yea it is mechanical pump, conversion was done 2005. yea it also has a lift pump.
I would be starting with checks on the electric lift pump and all fuel lines. You may have a restriction, something could also be resting on a fuel line and going around a certain corner might relieve the line allowing the right amount of fuel. Also check the return to the tank is clear of restrictions.
Thanks mate, I'll check all the lines. Could be that it also needs an injector service.
Right, I checked all the lines, all ok, there was 1off return line that was loose so i snipped a bit off & re-fitted it, made no difference. i checked all the glow plugs with multi meter, & there were 2off that had open circuit so i'm looking for replacements, surely the glow plugs are only used on start up & if 2 were not working it would be a bit rough when cold & then improve as the engine warmed up, they wouldn't cause a surge in power if you going at a constant speed, or would i be wrong in assuming that (please say I'm wrong). The lift pump is mechanical & if the diaphragm was blown I wouldn't get any fuel.
Would anyone in WA know where I would be able to get 2 glow plugs for a 6.5L chevy, AC 11 G is the number on them. The local Auto 1 has tried numerous places including Coventry's with no luck.