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Yeah ok, really any Suspension Specialist. Not really an ARB or alike, rather someone like Pedders?Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
Google search found this guy?
https://southwestauto.com.au/suspension/
but chase someone that specialises in suspension and steering.
Ok got some figures here:
Final Values:
Left = +0.22 degrees
Right = +0.53 degrees
Should be +3.5 degrees for both
So there ya have it ... Just a quick note .. the "2inch" lift by Ironman has a suggested end figure (total lift) of "BETWEEN" 50 and 75mm ..... just read it on the little note on the receipt ...
and just to give you an idea, I called our local Opposite Lock centre and to install "rubber" bush castor correction kit front and rear it will be $505 fitted. They say do NOT got for a 3 degree kit .. 2 degree will be enough. His explanation of what I have was superb .. the inability to drive with one hand on the wheel and the other resting on the window .... couldn't have put it better ..
And a few quick prices:
Local tyre and muffler centre: $400 but with polyurethane Old Man Emu that are 2 degrees
Local truck alignment centre: $375 but with polyurethane bushes that are 2.5 degrees
So the choices (if I want rubber) are from ARB but it will be 2 degree kit and get it fitted elsewhere
or a 2.5 degree kit but it will be polyurethane
Does the rear axle require any changes?
Few points to consider, if you do the correction in line with your result(assuming to be accurate):
How old are your 2" lift coils (allow for sag over time). Is weight to remain same(bars/winch, drawes / load in back) etc.Quote:
Left = +0.22 degrees
Right = +0.53 degrees
Should be +3.5 degrees for both
Yes 2.5-3 deg would be correct based on result but IMO 2-2.5deg be OK, but your choice based on material selection. $375-400 looks OK, ask if it includes alignment check after fitting bushes. Maybe offer to supply the bushes to chosen installer if they do not carry them.
IMO, if she drove well before lift and you lifted 2", I would do 2 deg caster correction. Based on general rule 1 deg correction per inch of lift.
Rear axle is fine, only thing is make sure the brake lines can cope with drop of axles(front and rear). At least jack up each corner of chassis to achieve full extended shock length(whl off the ground) and make sure there is some slack in the flex brake hose/line. Most lift kits (eg: Dobinsons coils) come with spacer blocks to accommodate for lift. Ask the guys that supplied/fitted your coils.
The brake proportioning valve (lever/spring 90 deg position), might be OK. Do a search on topic.
The coils were fitted last October but I suspect that the heavier duty springs have a slightly higher lift than 2 inches and hence the more pronounced castor issue. I was advised not to go higher than 2 degrees (by ARB centre) and that coupled with the fact that they do the 2 degree kit made of rubber then I am inclined to buy the kit from them and get it fitted elsewhere like you said. The local truck alignment centre said flat out .. an hours work .. everywhere else has said 3 hours. Of course that's where the money lies in the total price. None of these prices were with any wheel alignment either. As the alignment was done in October and there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it now, they have said not to bother doing one. If it does need to be done then put $88 on top.
I will certainly check out the brake lines along with the proportional valve. I did comment (prior to you guys mentioning it), that I had to hit the brakes recently and the wagon was very nose heavy .. probably the reason why.
Spring rate refers to the amount of weight that is needed to compress a spring one inch. If the coil is rated 2" lift, be surprised if you gained more than 2" above stock within spec.
Alignment post fitting bushes was only to check the corrected caster. Sounds like U are sorted.
Did my 2" lift 5 yrs ago, did not change the Brake Positing Valve bracket to suit as had no real issues with nose diving. Maybe I just have not given the job much priority.....
that's just it though .. the heaviest 2 inch lift coils from Ironman come with the label 50 to 75mm .. so if it is on the higher side then that may be what is causing the issue. If it were just the 50mm then I might have been able to get away with it like others have. I was warned they would settle after a bit of use .. 10000 k's later and I dont think they are going to settle any more .. yeah I think the alignment is fine. Everything else is a non issue. No pulling left or right, no wobbles or vibration, steering wheel is centred ..
Well the good news is, I don't seem to have a brake proportional valve that is spring loaded or on a bracket .. mine appears to be controlled by the ABS ...
If you only have .2 and .5 degree of castor. 2 degrees will still put you out of tolerance. That is shit advice given by a 'Professional' You are still going to have adverse effects because your castor will still be out by 1 degree. Or 100% out of spec.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
so ignore what the arb centre is saying .. and go for a 3 degree castor ..
Should identify what the caster angle spec range is for Patrol Hard Top (eg:Wagon) specific to your model, have read that GQ/GU spec max is 3.5° and have read there is a variation tolerance of +/- 1°. It could be that the caster angle range is between 1.5-3.5°. Different articles read state that the range is 1-3°.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
So if these observations are correct: using 2° correction bushes would provide a corrected value of 2.22° (L) / 2.53° (R).
Info provided for purpose of discussion and enable you to seek clarification from SME.
Came across this link for RUBBER 2° CASTER CORRECTION BUSHES to suit Patrol for lift between 50-75mm from Ironman:
http://www.ironman4x4.com/products/s...c-9b82269acd85
The alignment figures u posted are they current?
yes you are correct. The normal castor angle is +3.50 degrees.
And yes the current castor on mine is 0.22 (L) and 0.53 (R). Yes I did see the Ironman correction kit. But as I had so much trouble from the local Ironman centre, I just refused to go back to them. I could call to a Ironman supplier in the next town and see what they have to say. I found it interesting that the castor offset is the same rated lift (50-75mm) as listed on the springs that were installed and also that it is 2 degrees (as suggested by ARB) ...
Look they say suitable for 50-75mm as there will be an acceptable caster angle range(eg: say 1.5-3.5°). U need to clarify this, call Pedders, or a quality suspension/steering joint or maybe ARB or even Nissan Tech or refer to the veh manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
Info only - I run 2" lift / 2° bushes, corrected @ 1.47(L) & 1.5(R) and all fine (5yrs)_33s M/T 17x8" steel rims 08 GU Wag (runs level F/R).
OK are you ready for this .. sit down before you read:
Ironman (the agent not a franchise): $400 for the 2 degree rubber kit fitted but may be more as it will take half a day to do the job! (they also wanted me to change the rear springs to shorter coils as it's easier and less labour intensive to do that than change the bushes)!!!!!!!!
Pedders (the agent not a franchise): $609 for the 2.5 degree kit fitted but the front bush will be rubber and rear will be polyurethane ($184 for the front and $62 for the rear radius bushes)
All say that it is not necessary to meet the +3.5 degree factory spec as their is an error allowance from the factory spec
Ironman franchise: $750 and half a days work
Pedders franchise: $735 and 3 hours work minimum
So there you have it .. So the long and short of it is .... I will buy a 2 degree rubber ARB set of bushes and take them through to the local truck alignment centre and get them fitted for $175 ...
So, for those prices why dont you get some drop boxes? That'll give you the castor you need and they're better than castor bushesQuote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
Yep. Just because they work a suspension shop doesn't mean they know squat about suspension dynamics. It means they can change a spring and shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
are they better? I was told to steer clear of them .. and I didn't want to pay $600/700 ... for $375 have them done at the local truck centre ..
Who told you to steer clear of drop boxes? What are they basing that on?Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
Edit
Drop boxes are 400 from Superior Engineering. A fairly easy job to install
On a 2" lift how much correction will drop boxes give? If have thought too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben-e-boy
He needs a minimum of 3 degrees to bring it into spec. That in itself is the fact of the matter. The advertised amount of lift installed is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD
Also too much is better than too little.
Recon we all would appreciate there will be a tolerance, that controls the min/max angle for caster. Been stated in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
Appreciate you ask your SMEs: what is the accepted industry caster angle variation (range)? and post up their advice.
I think that is the biggest question really. What is accepted .. sure the caster angle is supposed to be 3.5 degrees, but, if Nissan already have an allowance for +/- 1 degree for instance, then a 2 degree correction is going to be pretty much bang on. Not one out of the many installers that I spoke to suggested to go to a 3 degree kit, in fact just the opposite. I can go with the flow and install a 2 degree kit which has been recommended by ARB, Ironman, Opposite Lock, West Coast Suspensions and the local tyre shops. The only odd one out was Pedders who said they do a 2.5 degree kit but the rear bushes would be polyurethane.
So who has done this to their trol and used a 2, 2.5 or 3 inch correction kit? What is the feedback on those ?
if generally a 2 degree castor correction is accepted as solving the issue (with the castor figures I gave them), by the industries involved, then I can assume that there is a 1 degree error accepted
Interesting. I have drop boxes on both my cars are they are awesome. Normally they kick in at a 3" lift but if the math is in your favour and you can fit drop boxes and stay at tolerance then that is 100% what I would be fitting.
Technically they are illegal but imo are by far the best possible correction option retaining the factory bushes.
The difference will blow your mind.
Personally i don't want to loose any more clearance under body. I'm still running stock alloys and tyres .. cant see me changing them for a long time
The clearance loss is a bit of a myth mate. I have never been hung up on my drop boxes on either car. Been running them in the GUIV for over 12 years and 200,000 kms at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
I can drive my GU with my Pinky mate. or on Cruise Control will track no hands for kms. (Not recommended...)
so on a drop box, how is the caster angle set if it is a fixed mount? If the box is, say, a 2 inch drop, but say my lift (due to the heavier springs) is, say 70mm, how is the extra angle compensated? Is there still a need for a castor correction kit?
No. The drop boxes are generally rated for 3 to 5 inch lift which is why I had not mentioned them. Basically your dropping the back of the radius arms down which will give you back your factory spec. With your lift you will likely end up with a little more caster rather than not enough. This will just mean it will track solid to the centre. Your steering will be slightly heavier but your power steering will sort that out and you will hardly notice and quickly forget.Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410
Everything else remains the same. You retain the factory rubber bushes which are arguably the best possible option.
You will have to buy extended front sway bar links though.
Had an interesting chat with another tyre company today who deals with 4x4 mods. They had a Toyota L/Cruiser customer who wanted his wagon done to factory specs after a lift. After a lot of research they could not find anybody who could tell them the exact specs on the castor angle. They contacted Toyota who couldn't answer them. They got a hold of the local Toyota dealer who brought down 4 brand new (unregistered) cruiser wagons to see what the castor angle was from factory. Not one was the same and there was a 2 degree variation between them! Very interesting. The chap I spoke to (who actually owns a GU Patrol) has said to go down to the local truck suspension specialist (the cheapest price listed above), and to get him to do his own alignment testing and come up with the associated "rubber" kit. He has access to 2, 2.5, and 3 degree kits. The apparent problem with the Ironman springs is that they may be upwards of 70mm in lift height, and where a 50mm height may get away with no radius correction kit, it is widely known (by them), that people often have a problem after they are fitted. I would like to thank everybody that has offered advice on this forum :-) I intend to go down the castor correction path and see where it takes me. I will of course post back to let you all know how it goes. Won't be for a while though .. cheers everybody
Spot On mateQuote:
Originally Posted by timbo2410