Thats what we were taught in the 4wd course I did......... doesn't quite work in an auto though lolQuote:
Originally Posted by graeme1969
Talking of autos and their ability of not stalling, whats the point of the hand throttle?
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Thats what we were taught in the 4wd course I did......... doesn't quite work in an auto though lolQuote:
Originally Posted by graeme1969
Talking of autos and their ability of not stalling, whats the point of the hand throttle?
Because I'm a selfish, lazy bastard. :) Oh and I haven't got a modern scanner so that makes me a fish bum as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clunk
Got a camera havent you?hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by mudnut
Sounds like the one. Getting into first gear has to be done, dangerous though it is. I was taught to open the hand throttle, flick the key, then switch from brake to accelerator as the car surged forward under power.Quote:
Originally Posted by graeme1969
[QUOTE=Clunk;590505]Thats what we were taught in the 4wd course I did......... doesn't quite work in an auto though lol
I know for sure that we used that method for doing restarts going downhill both forward and reverse, and I am sure that we did it going uphill as well, but the memory is a bit fuzzy on that. The extra load on the starter to go uphill would be a worry, bit if the option to reverse down is more dangerous than to head up, I am pretty sure the starter would have to take a hit.
The answer is yes I do. Have you seen post #33 in the rb30 facts figures and helpful hints thread yet. That is the best quality close-up my little camera can do:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Clunk
Uummmm... I would suggest quite a few on here have spent a day or two outside the 60 KPH zoneQuote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
That is exactly the wrong way to do a stall recovery.
Stall recovery is executed from a stable stationary position against compression without your foot anywhere near the brake.
Hill start is executed from a stable stationary position without the use of foot brake except in exceptional circumstance.
Where the need for a foot brake existed the risk of breaking traction would be a very significant risk.
"hand throttle was NOT designed to get you to "gain forward momentum up massive inclines"
it was designed to give you the ability to use the throttle WITHOUT using your feet - ever heard of the old Capstan Winch - or a PTO........??? you use a hand throttle for those"
Its called a hand throttle because it's a hand throttle. We all know you don't need your feet to use it. Anytime a winch is used, an operator needs to be in the vehicle to maintain control if something snaps or otherwise goes wrong, otherwise the car goes on its own way uncontrolled. The procedure for that is simply open the bonnet to shield the person in the drivers seat from a snapped cable.
"looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.
mate, if your in THIS situation, you have OTHER things to worry about - like just HOW did you get in this predicament......"
If you're stuck in said situation, what you need to know is how to get out of it.
You sound like someone who'll end up injuring somebody else, if natural selection doesn't take its course first.
Uuummmm... Bullshit, sorry, but it is... and any Instructor teaching that the "one and only purpose of a hand throttle is immediate high RPM on ign start for extreme hill starts" should be immediately stripped of accreditation assuming they hold some in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
Gotta love the way you word things. 'A very significant risk' is what im getting at. Im talking about slopes where compression isn't going to hold you. I realise most 4wdriving uphill starts don't need hand throttle, im only talking about extreme cases. If you have to go somewhere you don't want to go, with a bushfire up your backside, then some slopes are your only option and not recovering from a stall isn't an option. Plenty of people go up big slopes for the fun of it, and anyone doing it needs to know how to drive. There's also plenty of dead or wheelchair bound people who didn't know what they were doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by the evil twin
So what do you think its for then, warming up your car, or cruise control? Must be one of the two, surely.Quote:
Originally Posted by the evil twin
Must be for getting me bacon and egg butties warmed up quicker ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clunk
Actually I use it as a place to hang my manbag when negotiating those nasty speed bumps at Bunnings
Woah slow down there mate, that just seems a wee bit adventurous for my likingQuote:
Originally Posted by the evil twin
If no one cares I might get back on track?? If you do care about staying off topic for what Cuppa asked, then well ... :)
I've never had a truck with a hand throttle and agree with the many different descriptions of basically the same thing. Even without the hand throttle you can get used to positioning yourself and keeping it somewhat stable most of the time. Some days things will take you by surprise and you won't!
The hand throttle sounds good to me to have a slightly higher base to avoid stalling. But I think that would also take time to get used to. Don't think I'd want it set too high, but can see the logic in using it.
So, the conclusion to all this (which was also mentioned several times above)? Get out and practice! Then get out some more. Try some of the ideas from above and after a while you will have a system that works for you. If not, get out some more and eventually you will. You'll feel comfortable and do whatever it is you do and it will work without thinkimg about it. Kind of like learning to change gears really?? Can be awkward for learners but with time it just happens.
So, when are we going next? :)
Yep, I personally prefer to keep me foot wedged up against the kick panel, irrespective of whether im driving the auto or the manual. However, I have also used the hand throttle locked in for a slow even controlled ascent. Might even try the sponge one day, for shits n giggles
SpoilsportQuote:
Originally Posted by cgm
Mate , ET is on the money. I have never been on a 4wd course that teaches anything about a forward hill start and hand throttle (and I have been on a few). That is completely incorrect driving technique. Stalled on a steep hill requires correct use of the stall recovery technique which requires you to descend the hill backwards to a flat position where you can safely make another attempt at said hill. I've driven some ridiculous gradients and even the (relative lack of) compression in my petrol has held me on those slopes enough to complete a stall recovery safely. In extreme cases where it is not safe to descend, it's out with the winch.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
A FORWARD HILL/HANDBRAKE START IS A DANGEROUS PRACTISE EVEN ON MILD HILLS.
I would suggest you take a refresher course on correct driving techniques before giving dangerous advice to others.
The hand throttle is used to ascend hills (as Winnie pointed out right at the beginning of this thread) by setting the RPM at the bottom of the climb and is a good way to help smooth out any surging. Personally, I generally use the wedged knee technique as also described in this thread as it gives me a little more fine throttle control. Sometimes I use a bit of a combination of the two......hand throttle and a little bit of brake or throttle as required.
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My troopy had a hand throttle ,,,,,,for rocky,, slow,,, even work it was fantastic, I never used it for going up or down a hill
Did freak some mates out once when I jumped out of the Troopy and started giving hand signals in front of the 4x4, mates following thought
who the hell is driving TDs 4x4 lol, was a carpark type situation, Firth Park to be exact
Try not to form bad habits they will linger
So now im the one giving dangerous advice!! Sometimes decending backward isn't an option, and winches don't come in 100m+.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewboyaus
There seems to be a few class clowns here, or maybe just self designated smartarses who crave the attention.
I did my 4wdriving course with Peter Reynolds during my time in the emergency services. He has an OAM for his 4wd training services for his various training of government departments. He trains a lot of our ES departments. I think he's got a little more credibility than you, and anyone else who doesn't seem to know what the little stick that makes the engine rev is for other than being a bit of a novelty.
Maybe you'd like to google him, all you smartarses and expert keyboard jockeys. Im sure he'd even take the time to have a chat with you on the phone, that'd be 0428 623458
Geese mate. If someone told you to jump of a tall building with a sheet as a parachute because they saw someone do it before, would you??Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
Just because you got taught 1 technique (what seems a while ago) doesn't mean it is still taught as good practice.
I've personally haven't done any courses so won't weigh in on who's right or wrong.
But on a side note you should be equipped for your trip.. If you know you'll be doing 100+ meter tows then you should have enough straps to cover that distance as no, winches don't come in 100m lengths.
But also what you got taught maybe be relevant to area and terrain. That doesn't make it right australia wind.
You try your technique on a 50 degree sand hill. It won't work. So.. You either go backwards, or winch forward.
As with everything, it's horses for courses mate. I never said one size fits all.
Excellent advice ..... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
But you did. You said the other blokes advice was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
It's not. It's different.
Fight, fight, fight.
Um, sorry I have nothing useful to add. PML.
I love it when BDS comes into play.
Got enough popcorn?Quote:
Originally Posted by katwoman
We do need to play nice everyone ....
Troutnut definitely has a technique I have never used, as I never really utilized the Hand Throttle is this way, but it may be something that could be useful it certain situations so like everything on the internet - you cant take it as the only way to do things just because someone says so, but I believe that in certain situations this would be handy. The hardest part about getting forward momentum on as steep uphill section is that first moment of takeoff, where the engine is working its hardest to try ands move 3 tonnes of weight.
I know my little 3 Litre doesn't like key-starting up a steep hill as there isn't enough low down torque to get moving like the 4.2, so I don't tend to try this anymore, but I have successfully done this numerous times in the old 4.2 .... even using the hand throttle to just boost the idle speed a little
Mic
I would say that might be the case with a stock RB30. The small engine has very limited compression and torque.Quote:
Originally Posted by happygu
The purpose of the hand throttle is to maintain a higher, constant rev without using the foot throttle. The uses for this are numerous.
Tractors have hand throttles and I'm pretty sure they're nothing to do with 4wding hill starts.
I pull my hand throttle on slightly and leave it on (while still using the foot throttle normally) until the old tb warms up. So it's used basically as a choke.
Which vehicles [4x4s] have a hand throttle as standard equipemnent
Land rovers are I and 75s and 60s TOymotos because you can buy a PTO
that bolts to the tranfers case to run either a capstan or pto style winch.
Not 100% sure if early rangie had them as well.
Did early G60s have a PTO option or any M class patrol even the mighty Datsuns
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
Sigh...Quote:
Originally Posted by the evil twin
Firstly, I apologise for snips as they often change context, I didn't think so in this case, but maybe you read it that my snip changed the intent of your wording and reacted.
Secondly, I reiterate my view that there is no way any competent 4WD instructor should instruct a method as you posted.
So, Dude, take a chill pill, stop the petty name calling and reread what you posted and the many replies.
Purely as an offer to others who may not be aware of the technique under discussion and as per Emergency Management Australia manuals .
There is a use (not sole use) for hand throttle hill starts (Hill start and is NOT appropriate what I interpreted as 'massive inclines' but my bad if I'm wrong) involves setting the hand throttle with the engine running (not so it immediately leaps to high revs on IGN start)
The EMA technique for Hand Throttle Hill Start is paraphrased as follows.
Vehicle stationary,
Hand Brake applied
1st gear, L4, clutch depressed
Start engine and increase RPM to approx 1500 - 2000 RPM with hand throttle
Engage Clutch to friction point
Release Hand brake
Gently coordinate release of foot brake and clutch avoiding wheelspin.
DO NOT ride the clutch
Now, hopefully the above makes everybody happy but I doubt it and as I'm late for either my Advanced Clown Training (struggling) or next 4WD Course... can't remember which as dementia is a curse... I'll take my passive aggressive, disingenuous arse for a cuppa, a Bex and a Poppy Nap :eck05:
5 of my 6 Patrols (MQ petty and diesel, GQ diesel and petty and GU 4.2) had/have a hand throttle.Quote:
Originally Posted by threedogs
Only the fly by wire ZD30 did not altho they do have a Fast Idle switch which is a different critter and application
All of the 6 cylinder 4.2 Tojo's for SES have them.
None of the above have provision for PTO, cept maybe my Diesel MQ but sooo long ago now I forget.
All of the 4X stuff in the military had hand throttles but not all had PTO and that was also a looong time ago for me
Might be old school teachings as I cant recall any new 4x4
having a handthrottle as OE . I lot of my mates are instructors
and I must admit hand throttles dont come up often in any conversations
we have around a fire
My 98 4.5L GU does not have a Hand Throttle.
To answer the original question from Cuppa I jam my right leg and foot against the side wall to help control throttle movement by my foot.
Hiya TDQuote:
Originally Posted by threedogs
Yeah, wouldn't suprise me at all.
Each State and many of the Agencies within States will be different.
Currently in WA we present the same Techniques course to Fireys and Emergency Service members.
After the Techniques course SES continue with Recovery and ATU courses but the Fireys do not.
The Police training is different from the start and I haven't sat on one of their courses for a while now.
I think WA Ambos use outside providers... dunno... must find out actually
Nationally...
Whilst my mob don't have to align with the national competencies like the Training Providers whenever ours are the same as the basic civilian TLIC and RIIVEH packages attendees get the appropriate Statements of Attainments.
Hand Throttle starts have been long removed from the national competencies as well or at least the ones on our RTO scope.
Mainly because so few reccy vehicles have them now I guess plus all the newer stuff is getting Hill Start Assist and Descent Control
I still demonstrate Hand Throttle starts as part of non-assessable skills if a vehicle has one.
The technique also still appears in a lot of Booklets and Manuals such as EMA or at least the ones I have.
Wow, sounds like someone is in need of a hug.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
Its a shame all courses are not the same as I can be trained the same as someone in Tassie or Perth.
I do recall there was a push for it , as a mate was El Prezidante of 4wd Vic, but nothing became of it
and each state body wanted their model to be the one to use.
But hey jam your foot against the kick panel and rock your foot
Surely there are accredited courses or clubs in Ballarat you can join.
Keyboard offroad training Really lol
Settle petal.Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutNut
The advice you have given may be useful in the hands of an experienced 4wder in extreme circumstances but is entirely inappropriate to be potentially putting that technique in the hands of a novice. That has every chance of going seriously pear shaped.
There is such thing as a winch extension strap too that most people would have in their recovery kit. Rarely have I not been able to find something within its range to winch from.
Having completed the 4wd Vic advanced training a couple of years ago, the technique you describe was never once discussed.
And on the subject of class clowns:
Yes, yes there are, aren't there........
Anyway, life goes on.
Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuppa
Cuppa, I asked a similar question here about a year back after having a lot of trouble with the "pedal bounce" on the rough stuff.
The advice I got from Winnie, Threedogs, Nisshead & Ihurley was to try and wedge my foot against the kick panel.
What the guys suggested gave me a good starting point.
I tried a number of different positions with my foot and found that the one that suits me was to wedge my heal against the kick panel and floor and have the ball of my foot on the throttle pedal.
I can now control the throttle and have eliminate most of the bounce using this method.
:cheers:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewboyaus
Don't worry Drew, I won't hold it against you. It's nice to see a little comic relief amongst all the seriousness from some folk on here ;)