Big Problems with an RD28, Need advice Please

[MudRunnerTD]

Hey guys we have a member that posted this in his intro and it has been overlooked and having recieved 2 pages of G'days i thought i would post it here and put a link to here in his intro for him

Can anyone help this guy out? Seems like a nice bloke other than owning a Landy, he is after all trying to fix a Patrol and our advice would be appreciated.


:cheers: well hello ,what patrol do i own ??? well i dont !! dont like them never will !! sorry being honest :redface:

but i do have "well the handbrake has an r50 pathy yuk lol"
so why am i here you ask ?????

and im hopeing that with ol aussie ,help a bloke out attitude, i might be able to help my customer out.

i have an y61 patrol in the shop rd28 turbo, we have a new donk to go in,exh inj pump,new turbo,t-belt kit the lot,useing 5 x different manuels "and they all say the same thing, carry out t-belt fittment as follows
1- set crank to BDC keyway to "6 oclock and scribe mark to 3 oclock"
2-cam mark to t-cover
3-inj pump mark on sprocket to t-cover"and making sure the "9"is at same mark
3-fit belt "hmmm im likeing this "
4-inj pump mark to cam mark is " 25 teeth"
5-cam mark to crank scribe mark is " 51 teeth"
all good so far as per manuals !!!!!

6:beer::beer::beer: hmmm some these might help

7-attempt to wind over , i can only get 40 - 60 deg clockwise and then bang it hits the valve ?? wtf!

8-we removed the cam to wind over bottom end to rule out fouling ,all good winds over.
9-re-fit cam try to retard crank timming by one tooth ? no good wont even wind backwards piston hits valves
10- advance crank timming 1 tooth ,still hits
11- advanace it 2 teeth and it will spin ok ,but now keyway is at "8 oclock" not at the 6 oclock as shown in manuals???
but ??? directly below the crank angle angle sensor is an flat marker "imagine a 30mm flat alloy bar protruding approx 40mm out of t-case with a grove all along the end " looks a lot like a timming mark but no book,manual or nissan bloke can tell me what that marker is ??:furious:

12-now ,called engine supplyer and told it should be good at those marks and that he gets plenty o calls of t-belt align issues.
and after speaking to the techs at the machine shop they work out how they went wrong.
the lifters are solids with buckets and shims so the lifters arnt hydroliced up !!
13- the cam is the same as the old one.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowd own::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:
so please i beg of you ,has anyone had this happen ?? and do you know wat the flat alloy bar is ??

im a landie freak,so i should be able to work this out ,but it has me stumped

[Clunk]

I'm guessing non of the usual techsperts have seen this yet MR otherwise it surely would have been answered!!??.................... even if he is a landy freak!!!! lol

[Silver]

do landrover engines turn the 'wrong way'?

[the ferret]

This may help if you stick to it.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt164/ferret/2_8Timing.jpg

[albi]

thanks guys
nah feret no good followed to the letter!
besides this is the 2nd donk we have done in 4 weeks "rd28 "and last one was no dramas???????
i personally think head is no good "ie valves set wrong but engine reonditioner says different ??

[albi]

i dont know why people dont like landies ?????

they dont leak oil !!

they mark their territory !!

and they dont rust !!!









to many oil leaks lolol

and it was a range rover that had the first coil suspention set up took a while for the others to catch on !!!!

then again i want to put gu diffs under a rangie!!!

[Radmobile]

Maybe there was some damage pre belt change?

Hey ferret I got mine running but there was a pretty big clunk going on. I'm think ing one of the valves must be slightly damaged, how else could I have broken that keyway without the crankshaft coming to a dead halt. maybe rebuild is the way... What ya reckon?

[the ferret]

Mate if you pull the cam and it turns over, the piston is not hitting the valve.
If you put back the cam, time it to the diagram, not advanced and not retarded, if it locks up, you must have lost the end off a gloplug.
This is an interference motor, any item inside the cylinder will lock it.
Pull the plugs and inspect.
You can't vary the crank/ cam timing on this motor.

[the ferret]

Maybe there was some damage pre belt change?

Hey ferret I got mine running but there was a pretty big clunk going on. I'm think ing one of the valves must be slightly damaged, how else could I have broken that keyway without the crankshaft coming to a dead halt. maybe rebuild is the way... What ya reckon?
A bent valve will cause a miss and white smoke.,Pull the glo plugs and see if they still have ends on them .
Other than that, the head needs to come off.
Has it been drowned at all?

[the ferret]

thanks guys
nah feret no good followed to the letter!
besides this is the 2nd donk we have done in 4 weeks "rd28 "and last one was no dramas???????
i personally think head is no good "ie valves set wrong but engine reonditioner says different ??
If the key is at the bottom, it could be in any of it's 4 strokes.
.
You need to pull no 1 plug, turn the motor over by hand until pressure is built, (finger on gloplug hole) this means you are on compression stroke or exhaust stroke, continue to TDC.
Fit belt to marks on gears and timing cover by moving only the cam and see if valves 1 and 2 are closed, if they are open you need to crank 1 more rev to be at TDC no1 compression stroke re fit belt.
I think your timing is out..
EDIT.
Sorry, I meant to say fit the cam with lobes for valves 1&2 facing up. you will also need to spill time the injection pump to spill just before TDC before fitting the belt.

[Radmobile]

Cool. First job in the morning ill check the plugs. There wasn't any white smoke. What's "drowned? Like submerged in water? If that's what you mean nope it was never drowned. I did have it running it started fine just had a clunk going on. I took it round the workyard and everything seemed fine exept for that pretty prevalent knock. Now she doesn't wanna start. Mmm more diagnosing in the morning.

I remove the head will I need a new head gasket?

Got my workshop manual coming on tues.

Its all a Bit of a shitfight but I'm really enjoying it :D

[the ferret]

By running it with the timing out, you may have bent a valve, you may have it timed to squirt no6 instead of no 1, this will cause bad knocking and hard start if at all.
Head removal is new gasket and new head bolts.
Take the belt off, start from scratch follow my lead and we'll get to the bottom of it.
Driving it could destroy it atm.
Cheers Rod.

[Radmobile]

Hey ferret, when I fitted my belt today the manual says to be at bottom dead center.... Not sure if this helps.

Bdc Keyway on the crank at 6 o'clock.

[the ferret]

Yes but the piston no 1 must be at top dead centre, both valves for that cylinder closed and injection pump to have just squirted to no1 injector.
(Loosen no1 injector line, ignition on, rotate pump drive clockwise till it squirts.)
Fit the belt, rotate motor to key at 6 oclock, check markings, adjust by only rotating cam or IP but they should be close.
Keep fingers away from fuel line as it's high pressure and can penetrate skin and kill you.
Tighten injector line.
After checking belt markings, tighten and rotate motor by hand 4 revolutions.
If all free, fit lower timing cover, THEN balancer and top cover

You must remember to loctite the crank bolt when you are happy with it all.

[albi]

ok this is a new motor
has new glow plugs,injectors the lot new pump also !

i know nothing is in the cyl as i have pulled the cam out and rotated the crank without any dramas!

hey ferret
on a new motor it shouldnt mater with the crank as long as the woodruff key is at the bottom
it is the cam that dictats the firing cycle so to speak ????
if all marks are lined up i should be able to turn over by hand ,but cant

[the ferret]

ok this is a new motor
has new glow plugs,injectors the lot new pump also !

i know nothing is in the cyl as i have pulled the cam out and rotated the crank without any dramas!

hey ferret
on a new motor it shouldnt mater with the crank as long as the woodruff key is at the bottom
it is the cam that dictats the firing cycle so to speak ????
if all marks are lined up i should be able to turn over by hand ,but cant


Ok, I didn't know it was a new motor, yes the cam dictates the valves, with the cam timed it should be free to turn.
As I mentioned before, the injection timing will effect starting and can cause knocking if it's out.
SO, if this is a new motor, I would be talking to whoever threw it together, as I feel they have done something wrong.
Can't think what it would be, and a new motor should not knock.
Cheers the ferret.

[patch697]

ok this is a new motor
has new glow plugs,injectors the lot new pump also !

i know nothing is in the cyl as i have pulled the cam out and rotated the crank without any dramas!

hey ferret
on a new motor it shouldnt mater with the crank as long as the woodruff key is at the bottom
it is the cam that dictats the firing cycle so to speak ????
if all marks are lined up i should be able to turn over by hand ,but cant

Your spot on here, whether it be petrol or diesel the principles still the same.

After having a read I like you would be now looking into other things ie: the cam for starters.... Is it the original cam your using or a replacement?

[the ferret]

The only other thing I can think of is that the pistons are around the wrong way, this could cause conflict with the valves!

[MudRunnerTD]

The only other thing I can think of is that the pistons are around the wrong way, this could cause conflict with the valves!

Damn!!!! That would suck! Ghee got some merit though. The valves would be very unhappy with that!

[the ferret]

Damn!!!! That would suck! Ghee got some merit though. The valves would be very unhappy with that!

Yeah, well it's the only thing I can think of, it wouldn't interfere until the camshaft went on.
I had a motor rebuilt years ago by a very well known mob, pistons around the wrong way.
Cheers, the ferret.

[Gas_Guzzler4800]

Im not sure if it helps but I remember we had problems with an RD28 years ago and it turned out there a 2 or 3 different heads. one uses adjustable tappets and the other hydraulic. You cant mix and match the valvetrain

[Gas_Guzzler4800]

Have a read of this link
http://www.allhead.com.au/Identification/ID_RD28.html

[albi]

or how about this one then boy's.

today i got my boys to find "true top dead centre" on bottom end , removed no 6 injector as it is eazy than no 1 because of injector pump and also the wiring plug on the injector , poured diesel down the cyl and "spool" timed the cyl to find TDC and quess what ??

well the woodruff key "crank key was at "2 oclock" WTF???? it should be at 12 0clcok as BDC is at 6 o clock!!! should it not ???

so then we rotated it 180 deg for true BDC and the key was at "8 o clock".....

now one of the things we first did was to set up timming as per spec's and advance the crank key 1 tooth at a time untill it would rotate ok ,and it was 2 teeth advanced on crank key when it did rotate 360 deg without valves touching the pistons!!!

how is this possible you may ask ?? what is the weak point in the RD28 engine ??

the crank gear and balancer bolt comming loose "same as the v6 pajero" and chewing out the crank snout!!

well if the crank is serviceable the end is spray welded" a term used for welding the crank ???" machined then a new keyway recut.
well i called said reconditioner and he said he didnt do crank "well machined the jurnels but not keyway" and we assumed that prevuiosly it was done as this was an exchange engine, the same as my current cutomers 1 this was an exchange problem solved!!

and no im not fitting this one even thou weve solved the problem,as what happens in say 100,000klms and an other mech does the t belt??
doesnt know about said crank key and sets up as normal ?? bang bang!!

ill take pics tomoz and post up .

oh and the pistons back to front makes sence to as the valve relif's are not lined up !!!
cheers boys

[the ferret]

Well there ya go, I knew it had to be timing, or pistons around the wrong way or something stupid.
Who would have thought the crank had been sprayed.
Gotta admit, it had me stumped, been dreaming about the thing all night as I felt a need to come up with an answer for you.
The new keyway would have been cut at a fresh place and that's what tricked ya.
Good detective work mate, and no I wouldn't wish that on the bloke that does the next timing belt.
I like your ethics.
Cheers, the ferret.

[albi]

cheers mate ,as you said it had to be a timming issue took 10 hours labour to find thou !!!!!!! but as always i cant pass that onto the owner.

[the ferret]

I'd be pump'n the reconditioner fer 10 hours labour, He should have checked the timing with a dummy belt and handed it to you ready to fit the belt.
Anyway, a recon long motor should be in running order apart from electrics, and that means a belt, tensioner and idler and all sealed.

[albi]

yeh mate ive got to go through the hoop so to speak now and make new job cards and bill said manufactuer.all part of the game i spose

[the ferret]

yeh mate ive got to go through the hoop so to speak now and make new job cards and bill said manufactuer.all part of the game i spose
You know, because of that mod to the crank and shifting the key, how do you know that it was cut exactly to tooth spacing, it could even be half a tooth out.
After re doing the keyway, the timing mark on the sprocket should be re positioned as well, weld up the old one and re mark the new position.
This would have saved you a lot of anguish eh?
Cheers, the ferret.

[Radmobile]

Yes but the piston no 1 must be at top dead centre, both valves for that cylinder closed and injection pump to have just squirted to no1 injector.
(Loosen no1 injector line, ignition on, rotate pump drive clockwise till it squirts.)
Fit the belt, rotate motor to key at 6 oclock, check markings, adjust by only rotating cam or IP but they should be close.
Keep fingers away from fuel line as it's high pressure and can penetrate skin and kill you.
Tighten injector line.
After checking belt markings, tighten and rotate motor by hand 4 revolutions.
If all free, fit lower timing cover, THEN balancer and top cover

You must remember to loctite the crank bolt when you are happy with it all.

hard start and a subltle knock is whats happening. so your scenario sounds spot on...

im going to follow your instructions and see how i go. would u mind explaining in a little further detail?

i had marks on the belt, cog and engine marks lined up. so i thought it would have to be right...? how is it possible to be so far out ?

thanks man! :D

[the ferret]

hard start and a subltle knock is whats happening. so your scenario sounds spot on...

im going to follow your instructions and see how i go. would u mind explaining in a little further detail?

i had marks on the belt, cog and engine marks lined up. so i thought it would have to be right...? how is it possible to be so far out ?

thanks man! :D

Check that the timing mark on the crank sprocket is at 3 oclock in relation to the keyway at 6 oclock, (see Albi's post)
You need to set the belt up so it's tight and straight between the fuel pump sprocket to the cam and down to the timing mark on the crank sprocket,
Take up the tension with the tensioner, count the teeth in the belt between each sprocket as per the pic a few posts back.
You also should double check the fuel pump timing.
Also check that you havn't lost the end off a glow plug.
If you get it running, listen for "hissing" at the valve guides using a piece of hose to your ear, pretend you are a Doctor.

[albi]

yeh it would have mate lol
can you belive it i have an other rd28 that we put a motor in from same reconditioner and it has majour oil leaks ,from rear of head turbo compressor snail,front timming cover area and no 1 injector arggghhh

[the ferret]

I'd be dropping the car off to him and pick it up when it's fixed, then change supplier lol.
Cheers, the ferret.

[albi]

cant do that different state supplyer

\so how is this ferret
1st rd28 -crank machined incorrectly- new one on way
2nd rd28 -oil leaks ,filling turbo on both sides of compressor with oil,intakes and intercooler with oil, check oil presure 54 psi @ idle and 84 psi @ 3000rpm specs are 46psi @ idle and 61psi @idle, now the ggod part i got the boys to do comp test and
specs are 3040kpa per cyl and actual 1500 kpa hmmmmmm
carry out cyl leakage test 30% leakage on all cyl ????? WTF new motor only 300 klm hmmmm
removed rad cap , no bubbles,
no air via intake ,
now this motor on cold start was running very bad till it warmed up hmmmmm puked oil into intake filling cyls so on start up it was "knocking so to speak" untill excess oil was burned of!!!!
stay tuned lol
and no air out exhaust so that meens past rings doh !!! any way reconditioner cant work out why so he is sending 2 new donk's

[the ferret]

Sorry, but I'd be getting my money back and going elsewhere, this guy obviously has no idea and zero quality control.
The rings are probably upside down, bearings on crank not plasti gauged, prob wrong head gasket or even wrong head, I wonder how good the new rear main seal is, huh
Give im the toss mate, he's not good for your reputation that you have strived hard to get.
Cheers, the ferret.

[albi]

yeh i know its a hard one mate ,its not my shop im just the foreman and i was asked to join the company to bring it forward,they have been useing them for ages and had only minnor probs before,the way im looking at it is you dont know if they are having staff issues ie ;laid someone of as they are no good but the motors are already out of the machine shop ? someone may be having family issues at home and not concentrating?

[the ferret]

It's only gunna come back ta bite ya!!

[Radmobile]

thanks ferret

yep timing is spot on and once it idles its actually very smooth apart from the knock sound. ( which is one knock per cam rotation)

one of the guys from work suggested i take off the oil filter to check for metal. so anyways i took it off and sure enough theres metal fragments through it like glitter. ...looks like ill be posting on the rebuild forums ...lol?

thanks so much for ya help. no doubt ill be picking your brains again shortly ha!

tony

[the ferret]

It could be a thrust washer on the crank, does the noise go away with clutch in?
Anyway, metal in the filter isn't looking too good mate, might be time to seek out another motor.
Cheers, the ferret.

[Radmobile]

na still noise. was looking good for a moment. hehe.

cheers mate :)

[albi]

just dont get a donk from me lololol