4WD ACTION Letter to RTA

[Forced Offroad]

I did a quick search, this is a letter done up from 4Wdaction crew to the minster.

forward this onto others to stop these stupid laws on modification to our trucks..

Fill this out and send it. No matter what state,

http://takeaction.4wdaction.com.au/?q=node/2/done&sid=34080

[Ben-e-boy]

mines done

[patch697]

This link has already been posted in here http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?6104-Here-they-go-again.

[04OFF]

Please correct me if im not reading this all right, but..........



From my limited understanding, Queenland restrictions on legal lift and tyre sizes are "already" harder than what they are proposing anyway ?

And the if the same rules they describe in VSI 50 are brought to QLD, some people may even be better off, because by joining a club and doing a course, they could then have a chance to legally run even bigger tyres and have bigger lift than what QLD rules allow at the moment, and so actually get insurance and not get defected etc ?






And email "gay minister" (lol)

[Forced Offroad]

This may help not joining a 4x4club or doing a course. Neither i am interested in doing.
I'm more than happy for forum meet up than joining a club.

[growler2058]

This may help not joining a 4x4club or doing a course. Neither i am interested in doing.
I'm more than happy for forum meet up than joining a club.

I agree x2...I don't have the spare time for a club commitment

[Bigrig]

I agree x2...I don't have the spare time for a club commitment

X3 ... full-time job, 4 kids, 3 dogs, and chocka block weekends means I have little spare time for it - would like to, but quite frankly don't have the bandwidth ... would be easier to have it regulated with paid engineers certificates for any and all modifications (within reason, yes) and that would keep it somewhat standardized ... and yes, I know that's not as simple as it sounds either - but rest assured if the government think they can make money out of it, then I reckon it would get the tick of approval and demonstrate in some fashion to the minority out there that they are doing "something" about it ...

[luxo barge]

Hopeless fools everywhere... Just make the same rules for everyone nation wide and level the playing field. But yes, I agree the VSI 50 rules are stupid for the fact they base these rules on pure scaremungering to the general public. If I was in NSW and these rules were to come into affect, i'd be pissed. However I live in QLD and we already have some of these rules, and some of the toughest rules in the nation. I pitty you blokes so I have replied, last thing we Qld'ers want is our southern cousins winging some more; we alredy get that with the Origin.

If these rules do come into effect down there then you'll just have to cop it sweet and nlive with it; or find a lopp hole that allows you to lift your rig 6 inches without an engineer.

Hang on just a minute... why don't you all just cut the top of your wheel arches out and re-weld them in 4 inches lower than stock. Then you'll be able to do a 6 inch suspension lift, as the mesurment they take is from the hub centre to the top of the wheel arch... mmmmm that'll work; won't it ?

[Forced Offroad]

So much work there mate.

A properly done 4-5" inch lift with 33's I feel is a perfect for our county. I'm running 4" on 33's all the top after market gear to bring it back the geometry. I would put my truck on it that it will drive better then most standard patrols with my ride bight. 6" and higher I'm not a fan of to me that over kill.

Anyways Keep sending this letter, next the bull bars will be back on and after that closing down 4x4 track and so and so.
Keep these fun stoppers on edge and know there up for a fight

[NissanGQ4.2]

...... and after that closing down 4x4 track and so and so.
Keep these fun stoppers on edge and know there up for a fight


What you guys have 4x4 tracks your aloud 2 drive on still *LMAO*

[Finly Owner]

Look I don't mind putting my name to having a say to something that is actually being discussed. But as pointed out in the other thread, there is no actual link to any discussions more recent than 2009. Is there some Department leak of private discussion on these laws, and if so, let's get them out in the open!

Next point, these laws are being bought in, not too be fun stoppers, but, to minimise the numbers of raised off road vehicles on the road. Which are becoming more common and therefore a higher percentage are involved in vehicle collisions. When A raised vehicle hits a standard height sedan, the resulting damage is increased significantly. This damage is usually life taking when Raised off roader versus lowered sedan!

I'm not trying to scaremonger, side with anyone, or say anyone is wrong. But, I am being understanding to why they are looking at these laws. And giving a platform to launch our argument from. You don't win a Law debate by being passionate about a hobby! You need to get the Law makers to see your ligitimate needs, and reasons why they need to give consideration to your "Action Groups" Objections, Views, Proposals and Solutions. Petitions are always treated seriously when an alternative mutual agreement or action is offered as part of the arguement.



Tim

[Bigrig]

Had a few drinks too many last night and in the light of day realise the above post was probably a bit harsh. Sorry if anyone took offence to it.

Funny thing is mate, your spot on with some of your statements - passionate to the point of p!ssing people off who "want" to do different driving than yourself, but correct none the less. The point that QLD has some, if not the strictest, laws in place - so VSI50 would in fact be a bonus to a degree. Couple this with the fact that yes, some of us will still run foul of the legislation regardless and run bigger lifts etc - but to suggest a properly installed 4" or 5" lift with 33's would be outlawed as such due to perception that you have a monster truck is simply ludicrous.

I think what we're all talking about here (at the root level and whether we see it or not) is the perceived arbitrary removal of choice by bodies not actively involved in our types of lifestyles etc - half the people in the debate barely have lifts and bigger tyres, but they're getting on the bandwagon due to the thought/perception that their 'choice' will be removed into the future. That's certainly my position - I absolutely agree there's no place for 6" lifts and 35's on the road ONLY because the vast majority of those types of trucks have gone far beyond what I feel are 'acceptable' limits (panel cutting, body lifts, sway bar removal, flexi coils that are soft as butter, etc etc). I'm not saying they can't be on the road, just that they have to have some engineering certificate (the program I'd like to see in place) for the modifications that affects their license status, and more importantly, their back pocket by having increased rego and insurance premiums - that alone would definitely slow at least the flood of ridiculous trucks being driven by (average) 20-30 year olds with limited experience and even less concern for real 4wd'ing issues such as environmental sustainability, track closures, etc.

The point I would argue however is a lifted truck done properly not handling better than a stock rig - this is incorrect and I have personal and very relevant/recent experience with this. My brother owns a 93 GQ which when purchased (5 months ago) was stock as a rock. It was a whale on the road with genuine suspension setup which was soft and handled poorly. Comparatively Ryan (member on here) has a 92 GQ with a 3" EFS setup with new extended panhard, castors, and link pins etc installed, and I got to drive it the other night for the first time - my first comment to him (which he can attest), is that it was "like a sportscar" ... it was simply that tight that it handled like a dream, cornered unbelievably well an would leave stockers for dead on a windy road. He has it done 'right' and it absolutely, unequivocally improves handling and on road dynamics. That said, I wouldn't compare either to mine as it is without doubt the Titanic on road, but I am one of those people who fall foul of the legislation/guidelines as stated above (so I should be paying a certification and/or licensing penalty for it - and would be happy to do so).

Passion without focus is wasted energy, and currently there are a lot of unfocussed, passionate people weighing into this debate. Do I think it'll be sorted by our collective rantings? Not a chance, but at least we may drive a behavior to at least look at alternatives that invoke less passion due to their ability to stand up to logical scrutiny and reasoning - something the current bills cannot do in their current iteration.

Debate solved?? I hardly think so. Common ground achieved between a group of people with plenty of passion?? I doubt it. Beers cold and we can laugh about it agreeing to disagree?? Absolutely!!

[Bigrig]

Awesome post scotty, i wish i had your ability to construct and deliver such a well thought out opinion. I think we're in furious agreement on the issue at hand as there was virtually nothing i disagreed with in your response.

Cheers.

All done with the power of TappaCrappa!!! lmao

Thanks mate!!

[patch697]

Funny thing is mate, your spot on with some of your statements - passionate to the point of p!ssing people off who "want" to do different driving than yourself, but correct none the less. The point that QLD has some, if not the strictest, laws in place - so VSI50 would in fact be a bonus to a degree. Couple this with the fact that yes, some of us will still run foul of the legislation regardless and run bigger lifts etc - but to suggest a properly installed 4" or 5" lift with 33's would be outlawed as such due to perception that you have a monster truck is simply ludicrous.

I think what we're all talking about here (at the root level and whether we see it or not) is the perceived arbitrary removal of choice by bodies not actively involved in our types of lifestyles etc - half the people in the debate barely have lifts and bigger tyres, but they're getting on the bandwagon due to the thought/perception that their 'choice' will be removed into the future. That's certainly my position - I absolutely agree there's no place for 6" lifts and 35's on the road ONLY because the vast majority of those types of trucks have gone far beyond what I feel are 'acceptable' limits (panel cutting, body lifts, sway bar removal, flexi coils that are soft as butter, etc etc). I'm not saying they can't be on the road, just that they have to have some engineering certificate (the program I'd like to see in place) for the modifications that affects their license status, and more importantly, their back pocket by having increased rego and insurance premiums - that alone would definitely slow at least the flood of ridiculous trucks being driven by (average) 20-30 year olds with limited experience and even less concern for real 4wd'ing issues such as environmental sustainability, track closures, etc.

The point I would argue however is a lifted truck done properly not handling better than a stock rig - this is incorrect and I have personal and very relevant/recent experience with this. My brother owns a 93 GQ which when purchased (5 months ago) was stock as a rock. It was a whale on the road with genuine suspension setup which was soft and handled poorly. Comparatively Ryan (member on here) has a 92 GQ with a 3" EFS setup with new extended panhard, castors, and link pins etc installed, and I got to drive it the other night for the first time - my first comment to him (which he can attest), is that it was "like a sportscar" ... it was simply that tight that it handled like a dream, cornered unbelievably well an would leave stockers for dead on a windy road. He has it done 'right' and it absolutely, unequivocally improves handling and on road dynamics. That said, I wouldn't compare either to mine as it is without doubt the Titanic on road, but I am one of those people who fall foul of the legislation/guidelines as stated above (so I should be paying a certification and/or licensing penalty for it - and would be happy to do so).

Passion without focus is wasted energy, and currently there are a lot of unfocussed, passionate people weighing into this debate. Do I think it'll be sorted by our collective rantings? Not a chance, but at least we may drive a behavior to at least look at alternatives that invoke less passion due to their ability to stand up to logical scrutiny and reasoning - something the current bills cannot do in their current iteration.

Debate solved?? I hardly think so. Common ground achieved between a group of people with plenty of passion?? I doubt it. Beers cold and we can laugh about it agreeing to disagree?? Absolutely!!

I love the way you think brother.......... Outstanding post.

[Finly Owner]

Now Scotty if you take your post and mine and blend them I think we would have the perfect response to this issue. As you blend words so artistically!


Tim

[Forced Offroad]

Look I don't mind putting my name to having a say to something that is actually being discussed. But as pointed out in the other thread, there is no actual link to any discussions more recent than 2009. Is there some Department leak of private discussion on these laws, and if so, let's get them out in the open!


That is exactly what has happened. It's been bought up Behind closed doors and leaked. As they know there was a fight put up last time and it was suspended,

I see your point on a raised 4x4 to a smaller in a collision, but we share the same roads as trucks and larger vehicles.. most speeding,tail gating my list goes on.

[04OFF]

.

The point I would argue however is a lifted truck done properly not handling better than a stock rig - this is incorrect and I have personal and very relevant/recent experience with this. My brother owns a 93 GQ which when purchased (5 months ago) was stock as a rock. It was a whale on the road with genuine suspension setup which was soft and handled poorly. Comparatively Ryan (member on here) has a 92 GQ with a 3" EFS setup with new extended panhard, castors, and link pins etc installed, and I got to drive it the other night for the first time - my first comment to him (which he can attest), is that it was "like a sportscar" ... it was simply that tight that it handled like a dream, cornered unbelievably well an would leave stockers for dead on a windy road. He has it done 'right' and it absolutely, unequivocally improves handling and on road dynamics. That said, I wouldn't compare either to mine as it is without doubt the Titanic on road, but I am one of those people who fall foul of the legislation/guidelines as stated above (so I should be paying a certification and/or licensing penalty for it - and would be happy to do so).



I am a little concerned that your example could carry the posibility of not 100% comparing apples with apples scotty ?

Generally raising a vehicles centre of gravity will do little to improve road handling, im not disputing anything youve said mate, its just i fear that you may be comparing the "very old" standard springs, shocks and bushes with all brand new gear and a decent wheel alignment, and after all, i bet the standard hight truck fitted with all new gear (but kept standard hight) would most likley handle "much" better than before as well.


I think the problem is, most people with big lift want springs/suspension that flexes, they remove sway bars, and fit higher profile tyres, this all affects road handling, and not normally in a good way.


In general, the most off road capable cars are not great road handling cars, ive never heard anyone with a five inch lift say their car handles on road better than standard, no matter what they have spent or done to it.

[Bigrig]

I am a little concerned that your example could carry the posibility of not 100% comparing apples with apples scotty ?

Generally raising a vehicles centre of gravity will do little to improve road handling, im not disputing anything youve said mate, its just i fear that you may be comparing the "very old" standard springs, shocks and bushes with all brand new gear and a decent wheel alignment, and after all, i bet the standard hight truck fitted with all new gear (but kept standard hight) would most likley handle "much" better than before as well.


I think the problem is, most people with big lift want springs/suspension that flexes, they remove sway bars, and fit higher profile tyres, this all affects road handling, and not normally in a good way.


In general, the most off road capable cars are not great road handling cars, ive never heard anyone with a five inch lift say their car handles on road better than standard, no matter what they have spent or done to it.

Shut up Steve!! You're just trying to confuse things and put facts into the story!!! lmfao!!!!!

Nahhhh ... the springs were crappola, but they were only about 2 years old - stock Nissan replacements - but I get your point. Although you're wrong!!! lol - now I'm actually giggling to myself like a simpleton!!!!

[yort]

bring on national consistency, we in QLD have the tightest laws in the country, so VSI50 will benefit us, it will give us more than what we currently have

[NissanGQ4.2]

bring on national consistency, we in QLD have the tightest laws in the country, so VSI50 will benefit us, it will give us more than what we currently have

I know nothing about QLD's regs, are you trying 2 tell me you guys can't legally register a 6inch lift with an engineers certificate???

[Forced Offroad]

I know nothing about QLD's regs, are you trying 2 tell me you guys can't legally register a 6inch lift with an engineers certificate???

mate you cant run a 6" lift here in QLD... But people do and ive been around long enough to see people get pulled over and even not aloud to drive the 4B. Seen people towed home from outside Landcruiser mountain Park as they do spot checks just down the road...

This is why people are confused about whats going on.... Whats happening down south still wont make things any easier or relaxed in QLD if it goes national.
QLD 2" body lift engineered and 2'' spring lift so there is your 4"
QLD laws might be tight but there not very well controlled, Im guilty as I have a 4'' spring leaf but have all the after market gear to bring back the geometry of the truck...where if you go out for a weekend bash there a few pushing the limits.
The part don't like about these proposed laws is, If you want to run a higher lift you will need to join a 4x4 club, does everyone on this forum want to be involved 4x4 club.... And what makes a 4x4 club member any better then me on or off the road.....

And if this is the case, I will start my own 4x4 club where its free to join, no meeting to be had,no fools aloud who think they know everything about 4wdriving....(past experiance) So we can all run a sensible lifts in our 4x4's to get around this country

look i put this up here to notify people on what happening, so we cant put a fight... I this goes through with out a fight from us, you can all say good bye to your bull bars and where you can drive you 4x4 in the future....

[patch697]

mate you cant run a 6" lift here in QLD... But people do and ive been around long enough to see people get pulled over and even not aloud to drive the 4B. Seen people towed home from outside Landcruiser mountain Park as they do spot checks just down the road...

This is why people are confused about whats going on.... Whats happening down south still wont make things any easier or relaxed in QLD if it goes national.
QLD 2" body lift engineered and 2'' spring lift so there is your 4"
QLD laws might be tight but there not very well controlled, Im guilty as I have a 4'' spring leaf but have all the after market gear to bring back the geometry of the truck...where if you go out for a weekend bash there a few pushing the limits.
The part don't like about these proposed laws is, If you want to run a higher lift you will need to join a 4x4 club, does everyone on this forum want to be involved 4x4 club.... And what makes a 4x4 club member any better then me on or off the road.....

And if this is the case, I will start my own 4x4 club where its free to join, no meeting to be had,no fools aloud who think they know everything about 4wdriving....(past experiance) So we can all run a sensible lifts in our 4x4's to get around this country

look i put this up here to notify people on what happening, so we cant put a fight... I this goes through with out a fight from us, you can all say good bye to your bull bars and where you can drive you 4x4 in the future....

I agree whole heartedly with your post mate & im of pretty much the same mind set.

If this is to go through one this one issue, it will open up the flood gates for many others & my real fear here is a bloody brilliant way of life will come to a grinding halt for many of us....

Some may think this may sound a little melodramatic but I believe this is the intended end game behind it all.

[NissanGQ4.2]

The part don't like about these proposed laws is, If you want to run a higher lift you will need to join a 4x4 club, does everyone on this forum want to be involved 4x4 club.... And what makes a 4x4 club member any better then me on or off the road.....


The only reason why 4x4 clubs ( members ) will be exempt 2 an extent is because they make up part of the committee trying 2 bring these laws in, The 4x4 clubs said they need the lift because they do volunteer work for the Rural Fire Service clearing fire trails.

Yeh NSW laws arn't very well controlled either, I was running a 4inch suspension and 2inch body lift for a few years and never got pulled up by the police or RTA and my mechanic that done the pink slip must be dodgy as the only thing he ever said was " looks like you have spent a bit of money on the suspension "

Even if these laws are introduced its not really going 2 matter if the Police / RTA and mechanics don't enforce it.

But I agree, we need 2 try and fight this from been introduced

[Finly Owner]

I BELONG TO A CLUB, AND WE DON'T TOLERATE KNOW ALLS!!

Why belong to an accredited club? Let's see;

They run credited Driver Awareness Programs that teach novices like myself how to handle many different grades of surfaces, inclines,and situations, in a controlled enviroment under supervision of authorised instructors. These programs include recoveries and safety tips.

They provide membership to the 4WD associations that are involved with, transport authorities and parks and wildlife departments that make rules of what we can and can't do. Arguing on behalf of all 4WDers', including those who are so up themselves that can't begin to imagine that such things actually happen in clubs.

Many club members(depending on deals organised) are offered discounts in many 4WD accessory shops and dealerships by presenting their membership card.

Now the DAP may seem unneccessary to many of you, BUT, Queensland Nissan Patrol Club actually rate their Club Runs, and if you have not done a DAP, you can not attend a Class 3 or higher trip. These require min A/T tyres and may need Low Range 4WD. By administrating these rules, they are ensuring that our members are capable of safely engaging the terrain expected in the trip. They also have very thorough navigating and on trips and track advice when trekking, in a very friendly club atmosphere.

Now I'm not pointing at anyone, BUT, when was the last time one of our forum meet ups was posted, did we suggested the min requirements needed in a vehicle to traverse the terrain expected on the trip? When was the last time we asked how much experience do you have before inviting them along on the trip? Should we not accertain these before people turn up and find out that they won't make it through on Road tyres. I know we as the forum members are not responsible for any damage etc etc, but, surely we must acknowledge that no-one likes to admit their lack of ability!

As for starting a club where its free to join, no meeting to be had,no fools aloud who think they know everything about 4wdriving....(past experiance) So we can all run a sensible lifts in our 4x4's to get around this country. Well! first of all, a club should have a committee who is interested in the benefits to the members, they must have a constitution, and register a name. Registering a name and submit a constitution for consideration and approval costs money, as does keeping post office box for the club mail to go to. So you'll need a bank account to pay bills from, from which you'll have no money for as you have free membership!

So yes I must be a know all ! I don't know all about 4WDing and never will, because vehicles and accessories are always becoming better. So you can handle rougher terrain these days with better preparation. There is always someone who can show you something you didn't know, but you may never have the oppurtunity to learn it if you already know it all!

I agree that we have to have a say in what the law makers are trying to change, But, let's not Bag out those clubs that are fighting on your side for the same cause. If you don't want to become a member, Fine, but let other people have a chance at joining a good club, and see what it has to offer.

Some Clubs are like some Forums, not worth a second visit, BUT some Clubs are like this Forum, informative, practical, friendly, and family friendly.

Rant finished..........................For Now!


Tim

[Bigrig]

Now I'm not pointing at anyone, BUT, when was the last time one of our forum meet ups, suggested the min requirements needed in a vehicle to traverse the terrain expected on the trip? When was the last time we asked how much experience do you have before inviting them along on the trip? Should we not accertain these before people turn up and find out that they won't make it through and wasted their fuel turning up? I know we as the forum members are not responsible for any damage etc etc, but, surely we must acknowledge that no-one likes to admit their lack of ability!

Rant finished..........................For Now!


Tim

Careful now big boy. Appreciate the right to rant (I do it often ... and well!! lol), but drawing ANY correlation to a 4wd club's guidelines on track gradings, and their eligibility etc to do so compared to a social gathering of forum members (now mates) just to suit your argument is drawing a mighty long f'ing bow.

For a start, you've never been to one, so you wouldn't have the first clue what does and doesn't go on. No offence intended, but seriously, come up with a different example, as you've probably just condemned the thoughts of many new members ever attending on the basis of your opinion potentially becoming their perception of what goes on.

Secondly, all drivers are advised to use their "own common sense" in making decisions on what to take on - which is not an admonishment of responsibility (nothing to do with 'accountability' which is where insurances and the like come into play) but a general, and I would suggest, VERY well understood basis of accepting ownership of decisions being made at an individual level. Every effort is made to make people aware of the surroundings and conditions to allow them to make at least a half educated decision. If they then 'still' wish to take something on, they do it with constant guidance and assistance from some individuals who have probably as much, if not more, experience as some of the DAP instructors (I know one first hand who I could out drive 8 days of the week, and this guy is giving out certificates to people he's supposedly trained!!).

Lastly, and absolutely most importantly, not one single person who's been on our trips could say they've been coerced, guilted, or instructed to do anything they weren't confident of (irrespective of "AT Tyres and a 2" lift) as the vehicle is only half the challenge. The driver experience and confidence is just as vital, and as such, I would go so far as to say people have been in fact advised NOT to do certain tracks after they themselves have decided to do it. Bet you your next pay packet I could take Finly further than you could ... nothing to do with AT tyres and lifts - everything to do with experience and confidence/capability at the wheel. So clubs "grading" tracks is somewhat a waste of time in my humble opinion, because it could be a grade 1 doddle, but if grandma don't feel confident, then grandma shouldn't do it.

Furthermore, I would sincerely hope that out of three trips thus far, no one feels they have "wasted their fuel" as we do so much more than just 4wd - we socialize, we conduct demo sessions (albeit they've only just started), we go for walks as a group, we discuss the problems of the world (usually full when we do so they get solved easier!! lol), and generally do what Aussies do best - mingle with our mates.

Clubs have a definite value and I praise the efforts and contributions of what must be many thousands of members throughout this wonderful land of ours who give their time, wisdom and passion to promote a safe, sustainable, and accessible 4wd community. They absolutely have their place, but are also absolutely not the final resting place for common sense, courtesy and/or knowledge when it comes to the big bad world of off road touring (in any description).

My rant over ...

Hope to see you at the next trip mate ... those Mickey Thompson AT's I sold you will eat up everything you point them at ... but only if you wish to attempt it that is!! lol - sarcasm is my only strong point!!!

[Finly Owner]

Careful now big boy. Appreciate the right to rant (I do it often ... and well!! lol), but drawing ANY correlation to a 4wd club's guidelines on track gradings, and their eligibility etc to do so compared to a social gathering of forum members (now mates) just to suit your argument is drawing a mighty long f'ing bow.

For a start, you've never been to one, so you wouldn't have the first clue what does and doesn't go on. No offence intended, but seriously, come up with a different example, as you've probably just condemned the thoughts of many new members ever attending on the basis of your opinion potentially becoming their perception of what goes on.

Secondly, all drivers are advised to use their "own common sense" in making decisions on what to take on - which is not an admonishment of responsibility (nothing to do with 'accountability' which is where insurances and the like come into play) but a general, and I would suggest, VERY well understood basis of accepting ownership of decisions being made at an individual level. Every effort is made to make people aware of the surroundings and conditions to allow them to make at least a half educated decision. If they then 'still' wish to take something on, they do it with constant guidance and assistance from some individuals who have probably as much, if not more, experience as some of the DAP instructors (I know one first hand who I could out drive 8 days of the week, and this guy is giving out certificates to people he's supposedly trained!!).

Lastly, and absolutely most importantly, not one single person who's been on our trips could say they've been coerced, guilted, or instructed to do anything they weren't confident of (irrespective of "AT Tyres and a 2" lift) as the vehicle is only half the challenge. The driver experience and confidence is just as vital, and as such, I would go so far as to say people have been in fact advised NOT to do certain tracks after they themselves have decided to do it. Bet you your next pay packet I could take Finly further than you could ... nothing to do with AT tyres and lifts - everything to do with experience and confidence/capability at the wheel. So clubs "grading" tracks is somewhat a waste of time in my humble opinion, because it could be a grade 1 doddle, but if grandma don't feel confident, then grandma shouldn't do it.

Furthermore, I would sincerely hope that out of three trips thus far, no one feels they have "wasted their fuel" as we do so much more than just 4wd - we socialize, we conduct demo sessions (albeit they've only just started), we go for walks as a group, we discuss the problems of the world (usually full when we do so they get solved easier!! lol), and generally do what Aussies do best - mingle with our mates.

Clubs have a definite value and I praise the efforts and contributions of what must be many thousands of members throughout this wonderful land of ours who give their time, wisdom and passion to promote a safe, sustainable, and accessible 4wd community. They absolutely have their place, but are also absolutely not the final resting place for common sense, courtesy and/or knowledge when it comes to the big bad world of off road touring (in any description).

My rant over ...

Hope to see you at the next trip mate ... those Mickey Thompson AT's I sold you will eat up everything you point them at ... but only if you wish to attempt it that is!! lol - sarcasm is my only strong point!!!

No offence taken by me Scotty, as i will slightly alter my former post to read "when posting up trip" which I left out. As I was well aware that you would be the first to ask once at "fun park" who was knew at it and who wasn't..

I am just fed up with people going acting as if belonging to a club is a drag, and to use you words as they seem perfect, condem them so as to turn away those that might be looking at joining a club.

Anyone looking at joining in on a forum meet up should tag along, as Scott and Dave, along with all the others always do carry out proceedings with utmost care and safety in mind. Never have they lost one of their convoys vehicles, if anything, they have recovered yehicle for other parties. My rant is in no way meant to to cause concern over the forum meet ups, I am just trying to show cause towards clubs.

I have evoked the passion of forum meet ups, as much as passion for my club, was evoked.

Tim

PS Revised original post

[patch697]

This thread has been closed until further notice.