Need to build a half wall/ fence need some ideas…

[mudski]

…on starting it.
I have to get a half wall/ barrier/ fence whatever built at the end of my paving. I know what I want just how to start it has got me puzzled.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2022/10/16.jpg

The design I have in my head is to use four upright posts, Cypress 90mm square, two at either end then two in the centre evenly spaced, run timber long ways to connect all four, then a wide length of timber along the top, say 150mm wide or so. Then use Colourbond steel paneling to fill in the gap.
My issue is how to mount the posts. I’m thinking using these…
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2022/10/17.jpg

But how to bolt them down without damaging the concrete sleeper and sandstone paving, being so close to the edge.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2022/10/18.jpg

Any ideas?

Thanks.


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[Cremulator]

I am not a builder, but I would consider lifting one of the sandstone pavers and sinking the post down 600mm next to the inside of the concrete retaining wall.
It should be strong and the finish would look good with the sandstone notched out around the post.

[mudski]

I am not a builder, but I would consider lifting one of the sandstone pavers and sinking the post down 600mm next to the inside of the concrete retaining wall.
It should be strong and the finish would look good with the sandstone notched out around the post.

I thought of that but there 75mm on concrete under the paver. The bracket I have posted a pic of, this would be sitting half on the sleeper and half on the paver. As I want the colorbond to hang down slightly lower than paving so water can't get under and being so close to the edge of both my concern is if I drill into either I will crack them.

[Cremulator]

(and when I say one, I mean all the posts you need for the railing).
I would be concerned about the lateral leverage on the post bracket if it's just bolted to the concrete retaining wall.

[Cremulator]

I thought of that but there 75mm on concrete under the paver. The bracket I have posted a pic of, this would be sitting half on the sleeper and half on the paver. As I want the colorbond to hang down slightly lower than paving so water can't get under.Ah ok, maybe you could bolt the post bracket to the concrete under the paver?
I dunno. I'm out of my depth here [emoji2369][emoji23]

[mudski]

Ah ok, maybe you could bolt the post bracket to the concrete under the paver?
I dunno. I'm out of my depth here [emoji2369][emoji23]

Yeah getting close to being out of my depth of knowledge on this too. The bracket will be sitting half on both sleeper and paver so, being so close to the edge of both my concern is if I drill into either I will crack them.
I though of welding an extension from the sleeper posts so there is some lateral strength happening there. The end posts will be secured to the house an pergola post.


Once I get these brackets sorted the rest will be fairly straight forward.

[Cremulator]

Ok, makes sense. That sounds like it will be sturdy being fixed at both ends, but you're right, drilling into both concrete and sandstone close to the edge will be a concern.

[MB]

Far from a Builder meself mudski Mate but if near crumbling masonry potential edges, chemical anchors after careful tile water lubricated drilling and vibration hammering once through the pretty stuff could hopefully work?
Expansion masonary type bolts are horrible near edges, chemical anchoring compounds of say allthread are available stronger than what they’re binding too…generally MPA wise [emoji123][emoji123]


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[Cuppa]

I reckon you should have put brackets in before laying the pavers. Maybe you'll need to lift pavers & bolt some stirrups (or brackets) to the concrete & possibly need to cut the pavers around the bracket, or cut circular holes in the pavers & then fill the hole around the stirrup with concrete up to the level of the top of the pavers? The bottom of the post will then sit just above the paver with no risk of rotting out over time. I reckon having the stirrups on the edging would look look naff. You could use a mix of rectangular (rather than square) posts (ie 90 x ??) & if needed to get the aesthetic balance right either some thicker battens to attach the Colorbond too, or spacers attached to the posts to attach the battens to.

86050

Crap drawing but hopefully you get what I mean. I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives but this is what I came up with. Just that I wouldn't choose to bolt to the pavers. I suppose you could drill right through the pavers into the concrete & use longer bolts? It'd be easier than what I've drawn.

86051

[Hodge]

Way out of my knowledge depth here Mark.
But how about "somehow" utilizing those H retaining posts. Somehow extending them upwards. Neatly attaching a bracket of some type from the outside of the wall, upwards and then securing the fence to those?
I googled H retaining post extension and a few options popped up... Example below.
Just brainstorming here.


86053

[mudski]

Far from a Builder meself mudski Mate but if near crumbling masonry potential edges, chemical anchors after careful tile water lubricated drilling and vibration hammering once through the pretty stuff could hopefully work?
Expansion masonary type bolts are horrible near edges, chemical anchoring compounds of say allthread are available stronger than what they’re binding too…generally MPA wise [emoji123][emoji123]


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I've heard of using chemical compounds but not zero about it, where to buy it, how to use it etc. I will look into this. Thanks.

[mudski]

I reckon you should have put brackets in before laying the pavers. Maybe you'll need to lift pavers & bolt some stirrups (or brackets) to the concrete & possibly need to cut the pavers around the bracket, or cut circular holes in the pavers & then fill the hole around the stirrup with concrete up to the level of the top of the pavers? The bottom of the post will then sit just above the paver with no risk of rotting out over time. I reckon having the stirrups on the edging would look look naff. You could use a mix of rectangular (rather than square) posts (ie 90 x ??) & if needed to get the aesthetic balance right either some thicker battens to attach the Colorbond too, or spacers attached to the posts to attach the battens to.

86050

Crap drawing but hopefully you get what I mean. I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives but this is what I came up with. Just that I wouldn't choose to bolt to the pavers. I suppose you could drill right through the pavers into the concrete & use longer bolts? It'd be easier than what I've drawn.

86051

Hindsight is a wonderful thing mate. We had so much on our minds when builds were going on, a few things were forgotten about unfortunately. Moreso the funds simply ran out for anything extra at the time. I thought about doing as your pic but haven't decided as yet.

Thanks.

[mudski]

Way out of my knowledge depth here Mark.
But how about "somehow" utilizing those H retaining posts. Somehow extending them upwards. Neatly attaching a bracket of some type from the outside of the wall, upwards and then securing the fence to those?
I googled H retaining post extension and a few options popped up... Example below.
Just brainstorming here.


86053

This was on my mind but welding a piece to the outer flat side. This way is more work but would give better strength. I'd have to remove the top sleeper if I were to go this way. I will investigate this more when the rain stops. Thank you.

[Bidja]

Mark, Ramset make a chemical anchor systems (Chemset 101 and 502) and they do supply in spin capsule which would be best option for you. For use of the Ramset cartridge you need their dispenser (costly for small jobs).

Check the video and look for the spin capsules, the 101 type chemical is contained in a class type enclosed tube and the kit also contains threaded studs and nuts. On impact of tube by steel threaded stud the tube shatters and mixes the chemical and cures with stud in situ.

I have used Chemset to secure thread rod in masonary type walls to secure post brackets and the top plate to secure/hold down roof trusses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2iKgMKmFiM

[DX grunt]

Well, build it dear Liza, dear Liza. lol - with all due respect.

[mudski]

Mark, Ramset make a chemical anchor systems (Chemset 101 and 502) and they do supply in spin capsule which would be best option for you. For use of the Ramset cartridge you need their dispenser (costly for small jobs).

Check the video and look for the spin capsules, the 101 type chemical is contained in a class type enclosed tube and the kit also contains threaded studs and nuts. On impact of tube by steel threaded stud the tube shatters and mixes the chemical and cures with stud in situ.

I have used Chemset to secure thread rod in masonary type walls to secure post brackets and the top plate to secure/hold down roof trusses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2iKgMKmFiM

Excellent, thank you.

So far for me, I think I will get the fence brackets that bolt or weld to the H posts. I will have to remove the top row of sleepers I know, but drilling so close to the edge has got me a little concerned.

[Bidja]

Excellent, thank you.

So far for me, I think I will get the fence brackets that bolt or weld to the H posts. I will have to remove the top row of sleepers I know, but drilling so close to the edge has got me a little concerned.

I would look at utilising the H posts as well (depending on how they are secured _ in ground with concrete / yes). Maybe use some angle section or similar "profiled up" or off the shelf brkts, so to support the cypress post in the two vertical direction. Structure needs to be stayed /angle braced some how and also to be prevented from pushing out.
Could secure brkt to cypress post with say two thru bolts _ thru the same vertical axis 100mm apart (could use threaded rod or bolts with flanged purlin nuts (look good)

https://www.blackwoods.com.au/fasteners-fixings/construction-fasteners/bolts-nuts-purlin-fascia-metric/boltandnut-flange-purlin-z-p-12-x-30mm/p/01606956
Purlin bolt are nom 30mm length, it is the nuts I am suggesting here with threaded rod (many options out there).

To attach the rails, bugle batten screw to back of post or angle brkt into side of post and attach rails for infill with wall cladding (only suggestions mate).

[mudski]

I would look at utilising the H posts as well (depending on how they are secured _ in ground with concrete / yes). Maybe use some angle section or similar "profiled up" or off the shelf brkts, so to support the cypress post in the two vertical direction. Structure needs to be stayed /angle braced some how and also to be prevented from pushing out.
Could secure brkt to cypress post with say two thru bolts _ thru the same vertical axis 100mm apart (could use threaded rod or bolts with flanged purlin nuts (look good)

https://www.blackwoods.com.au/fasteners-fixings/construction-fasteners/bolts-nuts-purlin-fascia-metric/boltandnut-flange-purlin-z-p-12-x-30mm/p/01606956
Purlin bolt are nom 30mm length, it is the nuts I am suggesting here with threaded rod (many options out there).

To attach the rails, bugle batten screw to back of post or angle brkt into side of post and attach rails for infill with wall cladding (only suggestions mate).

Can you come down and do it for me? Sounds like you know what your doing... I'll have to read what you said 30 times to let it sink in.

[Bidja]

If you remove top sleeper as u suggested, will the paver handle that without damage?
Guess you could re bead gap with coloured sikaflex.

[NissanGQ4.2]

I assume this is for some fark tard office pen up his / her ass pen pusher council reg bullshit?

Run Stainless Steel wire from a mount from you house bricks 2 where ever u need 2 end it

OR

Glass fencing

What the width of the concrete sleeper?

[Bidja]

mudski, a couple of pics that might help give you some ideas. Check em out and can discuss if u want.

Posts being cemented in the ground will depend what is down there, alternatively you could just secure the square hollow section (SHS) posts to top and bottom sleepers, using anchor threaded rod (Chemset) fix thru center of post into the top and bottom sleeper (be strong enough I recon).

[mudski]

I assume this is for some fark tard office pen up his / her ass pen pusher council reg bullshit?

Run Stainless Steel wire from a mount from you house bricks 2 where ever u need 2 end it

OR

Glass fencing

What the width of the concrete sleeper?

No council doesn't even know. We are putting BBQ there and it will need some weather protection. The sleeper are 75mm thick I think.

[mudski]

So after some contemplation and talking with a mate of mine who makes steel fences and gates etc I have come up with this prototype bracket. It will be welded vertically to the H post, then a hole drilled into the top of the sleeper and a piece of thread rod chemset into the sleeper. Then bolted to either side of the bracket.
Now to make four or them. My little 135amp mig is not up to this so I’ll prep the pieces up and my mate is going to weld them up for me.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2022/11/55.jpg


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