Buying a lifted GU Patrol from a dealership, ride height question

[hovazz]

Hi guys,

Hopefully you can help me out here. I'm in the process of buying a GU 2007 patrol from a car dealership, pending a 3rd party inspection by a local mobile mechanic.

The car is fitted with a Tough Dog suspension setup, and as far as I can tell its a 3 inch lift kit. Fitted with some 32.8 inch tyres, will the car be over the legal ride height of the GU patrol? Can I reasonably ask the dealership to verify it is a legal set up?

[0-TJ-0]

50mm over standard is your base legal height. You can go up to 75mm but it normally requires a further inspection/approval. This includes suspension, tyres and body lift. If you think you're edging towards 4in overall then it's definitely over the legal limit

[hovazz]

Ok thanks a lot 0-TJ-0, I will get the inspecting mechanic to check the specifics of the lift and go from there. I have asked the dealership to confirm it is legal to drive, so I'll dig deeper after I know more. It also didnt have a rear sway bar on it while it was in the lot, so they are fixing that too.

[mudski]

50mm over standard is your base legal height. You can go up to 75mm but it normally requires a further inspection/approval. This includes suspension, tyres and body lift. If you think you're edging towards 4in overall then it's definitely over the legal limit

I believe this ruling has changed recently. Overall lift now doesn't include both suspension and tyres together. They are now a separate measurement.
Having a quick flick through this I can't see no mention of the two being as one. Im sure it used to say this however when I got my Patrol engineered three years ago.
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/NCOP11_Section_LS_Tyres_Suspension_Steering_Nov_20 15_v4.pdf

I could be wrong though, just haven't seen it written here.

[PeeBee]

With all the who-ha we go thru in Vic re compliance, my nephew bought a GU that was engineered in NSW with a 4" lift. He contacted Vicroads about getting it registered and was told as long as the roadworthy guy passes it, they will accept it - so there you go a road legal 4" lifted GU in Melb

[0-TJ-0]

I believe this ruling has changed recently. Overall lift now doesn't include both suspension and tyres together. They are now a separate measurement.
Having a quick flick through this I can't see no mention of the two being as one. Im sure it used to say this however when I got my Patrol engineered three years ago.
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/NCOP11_Section_LS_Tyres_Suspension_Steering_Nov_20 15_v4.pdf

I could be wrong though, just haven't seen it written here.

What I'm learning is that each state likes to have their own interpretation of a particular rule. Hear in SA it's overall ride height, regardless of how it's achieved. Probably best to confirm the ride height above standard and then run that past you're own state authority before doing anything drastic.

https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/driving-and-transport/vehicles/vehicle-standards-and-modifications/suspension-modification

[mudski]

With all the who-ha we go thru in Vic re compliance, my nephew bought a GU that was engineered in NSW with a 4" lift. He contacted Vicroads about getting it registered and was told as long as the roadworthy guy passes it, they will accept it - so there you go a road legal 4" lifted GU in Melb

Mines 4inch and road legal.


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[mudski]

What I'm learning is that each state likes to have their own interpretation of a particular rule. Hear in SA it's overall ride height, regardless of how it's achieved. Probably best to confirm the ride height above standard and then run that past you're own state authority before doing anything drastic.

https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/driving-and-transport/vehicles/vehicle-standards-and-modifications/suspension-modification

The link I provided is National. Not state specific. I studied this in detail when I went through the hassles of engineering. All forgotten about now.


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[PeeBee]

Mines 4inch and road legal.


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How did you get that done Mark? My Vass engineer is adamant that 3 inch is the limit, and that is a combination of body lift, tyres and springs.

[mudski]

How did you get that done Mark? My Vass engineer is adamant that 3 inch is the limit, and that is a combination of body lift, tyres and springs.

Engineered through 4x4 Obsession in Melton, VASS approved too. 4inch is the highest that can be done with the 285's. Unless its recently changed, I'm not sure.

[PeeBee]

OK, I will challenge this with the Vass engineer when I go in for the s/c certification as the 1" body lift, combined with springs has me sitting back on 31" tyres!

[mudski]

OK, I will challenge this with the Vass engineer when I go in for the s/c certification as the 1" body lift, combined with springs has me sitting back on 31" tyres!

Because you have a body lift, this might be why. Maybe ring Brett at 4x4 Obsession and ask him too. Just for a second opinion.

[MB]

I’d prefer to wear red undies down here but they make us wear blue, what colour briefs do you blokes prefer?


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[0-TJ-0]

The link I provided is National. Not state specific. I studied this in detail when I went through the hassles of engineering. All forgotten about now.


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So are ADR's but it doesn't stop states from interpreting them and or applying them slightly differently in some cases.

Anyhow pg6 of the document you posted states that modifications can be made +-50mm of original ride height but any higher will require certification. 2in lift and 1in on tyres would be 3in higher than standard.

[mudski]

So are ADR's but it doesn't stop states from interpreting them and or applying them slightly differently in some cases.

Anyhow pg6 of the document you posted states that modifications can be made +-50mm of original ride height but any higher will require certification. 2in lift and 1in on tyres would be 3in higher than standard.

Yeah I can't remember to be honest. I just left it all up to the engineer when i got mine done.

[MudRunnerTD]

Mines 4inch and road legal.


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The problem with this though Mark is the OP is asking about a car in a Dealership second hand with no history. If it is Mod Plated then the whole thread is a mute question. But i doubt that very much. Your tangent kind of throws it out of whack.

It is a Legal requirement for the mechanic providing the Road Worthy Certificate to ensure that it complies as he is singing it off. If in doubt then he is on the hook. If he passes it you have 30 days to challenge this and he is then obligated to make it comply regardless of cost. His incentive to Not sign something off is he doesn't want to pay for it. Ask the question. Ask the question of the RWC Mechanic. If he knows there is a question mark he will likely knock it back or make sure it is right as he will have to make good. If there is doubt then the Dealer should sort it out before the sale. If in doubt....... Walk away.

Scenario : You buy the car, you drive down the road and get pulled over by the RTA or Police in the first 30 days and given an Unroadworthy for Lift. The Mechanic is on the Hook for the FIX. The Whole Fix.

[hovazz]

The problem with this though Mark is the OP is asking about a car in a Dealership second hand with no history. If it is Mod Plated then the whole thread is a mute question. But i doubt that very much. Your tangent kind of throws it out of whack.

It is a Legal requirement for the mechanic providing the Road Worthy Certificate to ensure that it complies as he is singing it off. If in doubt then he is on the hook. If he passes it you have 30 days to challenge this and he is then obligated to make it comply regardless of cost. His incentive to Not sign something off is he doesn't want to pay for it. Ask the question. Ask the question of the RWC Mechanic. If he knows there is a question mark he will likely knock it back or make sure it is right as he will have to make good. If there is doubt then the Dealer should sort it out before the sale. If in doubt....... Walk away.

Scenario : You buy the car, you drive down the road and get pulled over by the RTA or Police in the first 30 days and given an Unroadworthy for Lift. The Mechanic is on the Hook for the FIX. The Whole Fix.Thanks for the detailed response. The mechanic is heading there tomorrow morning for a thorough going over. I'll report back on anything that stands out. It's a blessing and a curse that the interpretation of the law seems so subjective, but that's true for more than just 4wd ride height.

Either way, I'm not keen on buying a 4wd that will land me in the deep end which I'm trying to avoid by having a high clearance vehicle [emoji16].



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[mudski]

The problem with this though Mark is the OP is asking about a car in a Dealership second hand with no history. If it is Mod Plated then the whole thread is a mute question. But i doubt that very much. Your tangent kind of throws it out of whack.

It is a Legal requirement for the mechanic providing the Road Worthy Certificate to ensure that it complies as he is singing it off. If in doubt then he is on the hook. If he passes it you have 30 days to challenge this and he is then obligated to make it comply regardless of cost. His incentive to Not sign something off is he doesn't want to pay for it. Ask the question. Ask the question of the RWC Mechanic. If he knows there is a question mark he will likely knock it back or make sure it is right as he will have to make good. If there is doubt then the Dealer should sort it out before the sale. If in doubt....... Walk away.

Scenario : You buy the car, you drive down the road and get pulled over by the RTA or Police in the first 30 days and given an Unroadworthy for Lift. The Mechanic is on the Hook for the FIX. The Whole Fix.

I was referring to Phil's comment about his nephews engineered 4inch lifted GU. As for the OP. I'd be finding about what has been fitted first. I've seen new two inch lifts look higher that what they are only because its all new and the springs haven't had time to settle. Otherwise there is a "proper" way to measure the ride height, which the Victoria Police use, which would give you an indication of height other than just looking at it and thinking it height. Stock heights and how to measure will be on the interwebs somewhere....

[hovazz]

I was referring to Phil's comment about his nephews engineered 4inch lifted GU. As for the OP. I'd be finding about what has been fitted first. I've seen new two inch lifts look higher that what they are only because its all new and the springs haven't had time to settle. Otherwise there is a "proper" way to measure the ride height, which the Victoria Police use, which would give you an indication of height other than just looking at it and thinking it height. Stock heights and how to measure will be on the interwebs somewhere....Thanks Mudski appreciate the input. Good point about the different size lifts appearing different depending on age and other factors.

Got a pic of it for context. That's an image from the dealership. Might see if I can find the previous owner on any Facebook 4x4 pages since it was bought by the dealership locally (perth) http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/10/1.jpg

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[jff45]

How it looks also depends on spring rates and load. I had to put the Toughdog 50mm springs in for my GVM upgrade but they're rated at 500 kgs in the rear so, without the caravan and loaded for travel, it looks like an 80mm lift. All loaded up, it looks like a 'good' 50mm lift.
Toughdog sell it as 50mm.

...
79389


79390

[Hodge]

I thought, it has always has been 75mm, 50 suspension and 25 tyres.
Snippet from link below. Link below has more scenarios. 50mm tyres without lift, etc...

Also, forget your placards, mod plates, engineering etc... It is widely known that if a 4x4 looks too high, tyres too big etc to a Vic cop, he will send you to the pits anyway. You can throw what ever mod plates you want at them. They like to exercise their "Right to question" powers. Especially during their nets a blitzes. And then you go through the process...

Also the revenue grabbers have now highly shifted their attention to weights more so than lifts etc... Nearly all blitzes now include portable scales. And with our faithful Patrols, we all know thats not very hard to exceed.


https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/-/media/files/documents/safety-and-road-rules/vsinumber8guidetomodificationsformotorvehicles.ash x?la=en&hash=ADC5076B9F3DA0D047319217ECDEDEB1


http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79388&stc=1

[mudski]

You found it. Thanks. I couldn't remember where this info was.

[Hodge]

You found it. Thanks. I couldn't remember where this info was.That's the vicroads one ....
I remember you linking a much more broader pdf a while ago which was a national one.

[0-TJ-0]

I thought, it has always has been 75mm, 50 suspension and 25 tyres.
Snippet from link below. Link below has more scenarios. 50mm tyres without lift, etc...

Also, forget your placards, mod plates, engineering etc... It is widely known that if a 4x4 looks too high, tyres too big etc to a Vic cop, he will send you to the pits anyway. You can throw what ever mod plates you want at them. They like to exercise their "Right to question" powers. Especially during their nets a blitzes. And then you go through the process...

Also the revenue grabbers have now highly shifted their attention to weights more so than lifts etc... Nearly all blitzes now include portable scales. And with our faithful Patrols, we all know thats not very hard to exceed.


https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/-/media/files/documents/safety-and-road-rules/vsinumber8guidetomodificationsformotorvehicles.ash x?la=en&hash=ADC5076B9F3DA0D047319217ECDEDEB1


http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79388&stc=1

Yep and SA's rules are different. Must not exceed 50mm overall. Hense check with your local authorities.

[0-TJ-0]

If all this tells us anything though it's that if you have anything over 2in lift overall you may have issues with being defected as you tour around Australia (if you ever intended too). As Hodge suggests, even if it's technically legal in your state/mod plated it might just make your life difficult.

[the evil twin]

Regardless of whether you are in a 50mm 'overall' or 75mm 'combination' State only suspension lifts up to 50mm are legal under ADR/VSS (combo States allow max of 50mm suspension plus another 25 in body or tyre not 75 in suspension only) so 75mm/3 inch lift as per the OP is non compliant unless plated or has sagged to under 50mm static lift.

Not all states fully adopt VSS (which they are apparently allowed to do as long as their standards are tighter), the ongoing poo fight in Qld being an example and it can take many months even years for the individual States to adopt changes, WA being one of the slowest.

Does anyone know if there is an 'overall' ride height of a Patrol and have factory spec on where it is calculated from?
I believe there is a spec for the distance from the centre of the axles to the guard sometimes quoted (Tyre size + Axle to Guard = overall lift) but some threads have run to many pages on the subject.

[mudski]

Does anyone know if there is an 'overall' ride height of a Patrol and have factory spec on where it is calculated from?
I believe there is a spec for the distance from the centre of the axles to the guard sometimes quoted (Tyre size + Axle to Guard = overall lift) but some threads have run to many pages on the subject.

Superior engineering use this as a guide...
https://www.superiorengineering.com.au/image/pdf/Nissan%20Patrol%20radius%20arm%20size.pdf

[PeeBee]

Thats excellent Mark, I will have a look at where mine is sitting as a guide for sure.

[0-TJ-0]

Does anyone know if there is an 'overall' ride height of a Patrol and have factory spec on where it is calculated from?
I believe there is a spec for the distance from the centre of the axles to the guard sometimes quoted (Tyre size + Axle to Guard = overall lift) but some threads have run to many pages on the subject.

The million dollar question. Anecdotally I found out today that SA use "original factory ride height" and they measure from the ground to the top of the roof. I can't find and haven't been advised of any "official" document that has these ride heights recorded. I've used the specifications section of carsales in the past and it's normally pretty accurate. Has the height of a 2007 GU patrol at 1855mm.

Edit:I suppose Nissan could tell you the official original factory height?

[hovazz]

It's a roll of the dice I guess. Everything on the car has checked out OK, and no issues were raised regarding the tyre and ride height combination (despite me requesting consideration to the legal spec). Dealership is obviously keen to sell anything regardless of the law, but I feel better having it inspected by a neutral third party.

What is the cost of an engineering certification for this kind of thing, if there is an issue down the track?

Anyone have any anecdotes about the frequency of 4wds being stickered due to ride height? Seems fairly uncommon.

Thanks for all your input everyone.

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[MB]

Depends where you live and play Hovazz mate!
Can someone please find the Mansfield picture of our Victorian legal holidays team measuring hub centers to under guard heights?


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[hovazz]

Depends where you live and play Hovazz mate!
Can someone please find the Mansfield picture of our Victorian legal holidays team measuring hub centers to under guard heights?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGood point,

Live in Perth, play around all over the south west.



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[MB]

Beautiful country there mate!
Please do keep in mind always with lifts that 1” Yanky = 25.4mm Aussie :-)
I try and tell Mrs MB this all the time, it’s actually 76.2mm Lol


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[hovazz]

Good call! I usually roll with the "close enough is good enough" approach. Hopefully the local constabulary feel the same ;-)

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[the evil twin]

snip...

Anyone have any anecdotes about the frequency of 4wds being stickered due to ride height? Seems fairly uncommon.

Thanks for all your input everyone.

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Used to happen a lot when DoT and the Police had the roadworthy blitzs' on long weekends at places like the S Bends south of Gerro, Eneabba, Waroona etc and would set up checkpoints and inspect virtually every 4X, V8 Commy and Ricer... stock family sedans etc would get waved thru.

I got checked every Easter for about 4 years running thru 2010 ish era esp at S bends 'cause the Gerro Feds were crazy hard on 4X's.
They were esp feral on oversize tyres, tyres outside guards, big lifts, Rod Holders/Driving Lights above Bull Bars and seat belts that didn't retract on 4X's

Doesn't happen as much these days due (I guess) to manpower etc

[trev zd30]

https://rvcs.infrastructure.gov.au/perl/12482_1142332_RVD_27Jul2015143236.cmd

This link was posted on another forum a couple of months ago when discussing the same implications as this thread. It is the go to list for the cops when checking changes from standard. I believe height is measured from the centre of the wheel to mudguard.


Following this with interest[emoji846]

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[mudski]

It's a roll of the dice I guess. Everything on the car has checked out OK, and no issues were raised regarding the tyre and ride height combination (despite me requesting consideration to the legal spec). Dealership is obviously keen to sell anything regardless of the law, but I feel better having it inspected by a neutral third party.

What is the cost of an engineering certification for this kind of thing, if there is an issue down the track?

Anyone have any anecdotes about the frequency of 4wds being stickered due to ride height? Seems fairly uncommon.

Thanks for all your input everyone.

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The engineering for my Patrol cost around $1600. This was to engineer the entire vehicle. VASS approved engineer I used too. As the Police and the RTA cannot argue against a VASS engineer. Where they can dispute against a non VASS engineer and still right you up a ticket.
I have only been pulled up once since the engineering, in Mansfield, Vic. Once he was aware of the certificate I had, I was left alone pretty much.