Towing a 6m Lotus Trooper Caravan wit my 2001 GU 3litre turbo

[PhillipA]

Hi All,

Just bought a 6 m Caravan.

How much weight can I pull behind my 3.0 GU patrol.

I will have to fit electric brakes. If the caravan is balanced there should'nt be excessive downward weight on the tow bar/ back springs??

Just wondering for some ideas from fellow caravan owners towing behind their Patrol's

[PeeBee]

Suggest you simply do a Google search on GCM (gross combined mass)for your vehicle or get in touch with Nissan for the specs - probably in the owners manual or written on the placard either under the bonnet or in the front door frame? Alternately get in touch with your regulatory body in QLD or the likes of the QLD equivalent of RACV.

[MB]

The towing placard on that vintage wagon should be on the inside edge of your rear barn doors mate. From memory only the TD42 (manual) & TB48 are rated for a full 3.5T towing capacity. All others are much lesser and the placard also explains max legal ball weight too I think for different variants. As PeeBee kindly mentions GCM above your GVM and axle weights is the killer for most Patrols & Landcruisers bums too! Patrol rear spring coil towers absolutely must have aftermarket braces put on top too mate and kevlar bagged poly air bags will be needed for added ball weight ride leveling.

EDIT: Here’s our old girls placard picture.
(2001 TD42T)
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/07/372.jpg

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[mudski]

The towing placard on that vintage wagon should be on the inside edge of your rear barn doors mate. From memory only the TD42 (manual) & TB48 are rated for a full 3.5T towing capacity. All others are much lesser and the placard also explains max legal ball weight too I think for different variants. As PeeBee kindly mentions GCM above your GVM and axle weights is the killer for most Patrols & Landcruisers bums too! Patrol rear spring coil towers absolutely must have aftermarket braces put on top too mate and kevlar bagged poly air bags will be needed for added ball weight ride leveling.

EDIT: Here’s our old girls placard picture.
(2001 TD42T)
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/07/372.jpg

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I only just noticed that sticker on my 2001 GU yesterday morning. I've on had the Patrol since 2012...

[jff45]

Note that Nissan’s towball mass vs GVM info as shown on that sticker is not valid here in Australia. Any towball weight added by whatever you’re towing reduces the vehicle payload by that amount.
Nissan state, on the 1st line, that a 200 kg towball weight does not impact GVM but that’s incorrect. It gives you 200 kg less payload i.e GVM minus 200 kg.
Similarly, on the bottom line, the 350 kg ball weight doesn’t effect GVM by 290 kg. You must deduct the 350 kg from your payload.

[MB]

Must not exceed “at” GVM I’m lost :-(
Verging on interpretational these damn stickers :-(


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[Plasnart]

What's that code at the bottom of the sticker, ending with "AU"? ADR-related? Might be worth a confirm with a Nissan dealer.

[MB]

Got my head around it now I think JFF45 mate!
How ridiculous a sticker, worth arguing in court albeit who wants to go there!
Makes sense now why the father in law only carried a 40L Engel and nothing else in the back of his Landcruiser V8 around Australia too, all other weight was strategically positioned over 5.0m length tops caravan axle loads.


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[PhillipA]

Thanks for your input
It's a bit difficult. I'M dealing with GCM, GVM and then Tow ball weight. So I should check out how many kg's the patrol's GVM is and then load my car before attaching the van.
Then I could take it to the weigh bridge and confirm whether it is under or over the GVM and then I can calculate how much I can or cant load on the towbar.

If my GVM is say 250 kg under the GVM I assume I can have a towball weight of up to 250kg. All good

Then how do I work out whether the weight of the Van I am towing is too heavy or not (Is this when I look at GCM?? Do I add the GVM of my car and the GVM of the van and see if it is within the GCM tolerance??)

[MB]

How much does your 6.0m van weigh dry for starters Phillip mate?
There is a calculation for GCM calculated I believe via GVM + Towing legal weight (3.0L variant?) and rear axle weight is now under question with ADR’s ( Australian Design Rules)
Bloody confusing I agree mate!



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[PhillipA]

Thanks for your input
It's a bit difficult. I'M dealing with GCM, GVM and then Tow ball weight. So I should check out how many kg's the patrol's GVM is and then load my car before attaching the van.
Then I could take it to the weigh bridge and confirm whether it is under or over the GVM and then I can calculate how much I can or cant load on the towbar.

If my GVM is say 250 kg under the GVM I assume I can have a towball weight of up to 250kg. All good

Then how do I work out whether the weight of the Van I am towing is too heavy or not (Is this when I look at GCM?? Do I add the GVM of my car and the GVM of the van and see if it is within the GCM tolerance??)


After looking at specs I believe the Van is Tare weight of 2850kg Ball weight of about 240kg & ATM of 3500KG

[mudski]

Must not exceed “at” GVM I’m lost :-(
Verging on interpretational these damn stickers :-(


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Yeah Im bloody lost. TBH, I've never really looked at its no wonder....

What's that code at the bottom of the sticker, ending with "AU"? ADR-related? Might be worth a confirm with a Nissan dealer.

That the Australian part number for the sticker if you wanted to replace it.

[MB]

Thanks for your input
After looking at specs I believe the Van is Tare weight of 2850kg Ball weight of about 240kg & ATM of 3500KG

Sorry to say Phil mate but if I nuffy understand reckon, seems you’ll unfortunately get done in a 3.0L rated :-( Truly hope I’m wrong too good bloke!!



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[Plasnart]

Yeah Im bloody lost. TBH, I've never really looked at its no wonder....


That the Australian part number for the sticker if you wanted to replace it.

Well if that's an Australian Nissan part number then it can be relied upon for this issue?

[jff45]

The weight of the van you can tow is when it is unhitched and loaded within its ATM. I have a Patrol auto and can only tow 2500 kg but I’m planning on buying a van with an ATM of 2650 kg that I won’t be allowed to load heavier than 2500 kg.

If I have 250 kg on the ball, that doesn’t mean I’m only towing 2250 kg (the van GTM).

[PhillipA]

Well the van wo't be goin up any mountains ....yet

I will pick it up in Newcastle and take the coast road to Cairns trying to detour around Brisbane. The road is faily flat the whole way.

Be getting some in the coil air bags as was suggested to me by a suspension mob so that should keep the front wheels on the ground.

If I do start some serious distances with challenging slopes I will be forced to by a Landcruiser 200 series V8 dare I say on this forum

[PhillipA]

After looking at specs I believe the Van is Tare weight of 2850kg Ball weight of about 240kg & ATM of 3500KG

[mudski]

Well if that's an Australian Nissan part number then it can be relied upon for this issue?

Definitely an AU part number, thats all I am qualified to tell you. I become a nuffy beyond that.

[MB]

Safe travels Phil mate! Please be sure to look up some other great 3.0L proofing threads on here and install an EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) guage before departure. Our 3.0L & 4.2L diesels very much dislike 2degree uphill headwinds, drop a gear down or two and keep well well below 550 EGT’s for longer highway periods [emoji106][emoji106]


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[Plasnart]

The weight of the van you can tow is when it is unhitched and loaded within its ATM. I have a Patrol auto and can only tow 2500 kg but I’m planning on buying a van with an ATM of 2650 kg that I won’t be allowed to load heavier than 2500 kg.

If I have 250 kg on the ball, that doesn’t mean I’m only towing 2250 kg (the van GTM).

Think I understand. It's complicated issue. Basically as far as I can understand, the trailer cant exceed Gross Trailer Mass (GTM). The vehicle cant exceed GVM. The total combination cant exceed GTM + GVM minus ball weight. Am I right?

[PhillipA]

Just read this on an air bags review. Quote "I repair bent 4x4 chassis for a living, so i probably shouldn't write this post as 80% of my work comes from the fitment of air bags.
But i feel i need to help out my Earth freinds so hear goes.
We buy these 4x4s ,load them to the gunnels then wack a fully loaded camper trailer(maybe another three tonne )on the towball and serprise! the ass and is sagging. Well i'll just wack some air bags in,takes the load of the springs they say.
So wear dose the load go ???
straight on to the chassis
I've had 4x4s dragged in to work from all parts of this wide brown land at huge cost to their owners due to over loading and air bags ,some bent beyond repair with the towbar at 30 deg. bellow parallel.
The utes are the worst (Hilux,Triton,Navara,Ranger-bt50)with their flimsy 2 mm thick rear chassis.How they have a three tonne towing cap. is beyond me.Had a ford ranger just the other day cracked near threw at the bump stops.
Patrols- while the chassis are fairly strong their weak point is their rear spring mounts,they bend up into the floorpan, busting brakelines on the way&bending the body.
Defenders- (don't get me started.what a pile of sh!t) while they might look strong they are not. bending & cracking at the shocker mounts.
Land Cruisers -haven't had a bent one yet (gess what i drive).

Hope this opens a can of worms , there's alot to be said about over loading 4x4s makeing dangerous& unroadworthy...air bags don't solve the problem-if you won't to carry five tonne buy a truck.
Still have alot more info on chassis week points but thats enough typing for now

[Plasnart]

Just read this on an air bags review. Quote "I repair bent 4x4 chassis for a living, so i probably shouldn't write this post as 80% of my work comes from the fitment of air bags.
But i feel i need to help out my Earth freinds so hear goes.
We buy these 4x4s ,load them to the gunnels then wack a fully loaded camper trailer(maybe another three tonne )on the towball and serprise! the ass and is sagging. Well i'll just wack some air bags in,takes the load of the springs they say.
So wear dose the load go ???
straight on to the chassis
I've had 4x4s dragged in to work from all parts of this wide brown land at huge cost to their owners due to over loading and air bags ,some bent beyond repair with the towbar at 30 deg. bellow parallel.
The utes are the worst (Hilux,Triton,Navara,Ranger-bt50)with their flimsy 2 mm thick rear chassis.How they have a three tonne towing cap. is beyond me.Had a ford ranger just the other day cracked near threw at the bump stops.
Patrols- while the chassis are fairly strong their weak point is their rear spring mounts,they bend up into the floorpan, busting brakelines on the way&bending the body.
Defenders- (don't get me started.what a pile of sh!t) while they might look strong they are not. bending & cracking at the shocker mounts.
Land Cruisers -haven't had a bent one yet (gess what i drive).

Hope this opens a can of worms , there's alot to be said about over loading 4x4s makeing dangerous& unroadworthy...air bags don't solve the problem-if you won't to carry five tonne buy a truck.
Still have alot more info on chassis week points but thats enough typing for now

That issue has been discussed numerous times on this forum. I'm not a fan of airbags for that very reason. The springs are there for a reason. Upgrade springs and let them do the work rather than transfer loads direct to the chassis via airbags. But that's just my opinion. Others have other opinions.

EDIT: Level rides are a great invention for highway towing. Get the front suspension involved in the load sharing. Not great for offroad though. Pros and cons to everything.

[jff45]

Well if that's an Australian Nissan part number then it can be relied upon for this issue?

I don’t think a sticker that Nissan made 18 years ago can override the current law.

As an example, if you carry a 200 kg bike on a rack that’s fitted to your towball, you must deduct that 200 kg from your payload same as if you threw it up on your roof rack.
Any weight carried by the vehicle anywhere on or in the vehicle is part of the GVM.

[Plasnart]

I don’t think a sticker that Nissan made 18 years ago can override the current law.

As an example, if you carry a 200 kg bike on a rack that’s fitted to your towball, you must deduct that 200 kg from your payload same as if you threw it up on your roof rack.
Any weight carried by the vehicle anywhere on or in the vehicle is part of the GVM.

Agree mate. Check my post #20 of this thread and let me know if I'm on the money.

[mudski]

I wonder say if one were to buy a new sticker it would be updated?

[MB]

Hence why we all love Patrols, toughest driveline gear on the old market! Yes, all coily arse end utes and all wagons do absolutely need their bums tower braced but so simple if you follow some great threads on here Phil mate!
BTW, most broken chassis’s mentioned I know of come from heavily counter levered modern aged poorly designed utes :-(


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[Plasnart]

Hence why we all love Patrols, toughest driveline gear on the old market! Yes, all coily arse end utes and all wagons do absolutely need their bums tower braced but so simple if you follow some great threads on here Phil mate!
BTW, most broken chassis’s mentioned I know of come from heavily counter levered modern aged poorly designed utes :-(


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Simple physics: Cantilevered structural element + load + time = failure in 100% of cases. Jeez, even the Sphinx's nose has fallen off!

Yes agree tower braces compulsory!

[jff45]

Think I understand. It's complicated issue. Basically as far as I can understand, the trailer cant exceed Gross Trailer Mass (GTM). The vehicle cant exceed GVM. The total combination cant exceed GTM + GVM minus ball weight. Am I right?

Sorry, I missed this reply. The GTM is actually irrelevant in relation to towing capacity. It’s more of a number to match against the vans axle capacity.

The vehicle can’t exceed GVM. It’s stamped by Nissan on the VIN ID plate but can be overridden by an engineer. I had my 2001 GU upgraded last year from 2960 kg to 3550 kg.
The hitched van and tug can’t exceed GCM. Nissan don’t give a GCM so it’s accepted as being the GVM + towing capacity.
My GCM is now 6050 kg because my towing capacity for the auto trans is 2500 kg and that can’t be changed.

[jff45]

Just to add some more confusing info, you can’t really get to the calculated or plated GCM if you’re towing a caravan and you use the recommended 10% towball mass.
The reason for this is that the unhitched van can’t weigh more than the towing capacity.

Example with my Patrol with a GVM of 3550 kg and towing capacity of 2500 kg.
I load my Patrol to 3300 kg and hitch up my 2500 kg van. The 250 kg towball mass brings the Patrol to its allowed GVM.
The van now only has a GTM of 2250 kg so the total combination weight that will show on the weighbridge is 5800 kg with both at max allowed load so I can’t reach my plated GCM of 6050 kg.

Hope that makes sense..

[jack]

Have a look at this, it may help explain things. I'm currently dealing with weights before we head off on our delayed trip

78992

[jff45]

Double post..

[jff45]

I think it explains less than what’s been discussed already because it doesn’t include the important info of the towball mass eating into the GVM of the tug.. that’s where most get caught out.

[MB]

Yes agree tower braces compulsory!

And or buy a modern age bullshit TC 3,500kg rated twin cab ute with 1,000kg of Bull Mastiff crap hanging as far back on its tray as possible fully airborne over a big red dune or river climb out!

Disclaimer: Best to full chassis brace a plastic type ute with a Patrol chassis slip joint over its top :-)
(Stops banana breakages midway they say)



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[Maxhead]

And or buy a modern age bullshit TC 3,500kg rated twin cab ute with 1,000kg of Bull Mastiff crap hanging as far back on its tray as possible fully airborne over a big red dune or river climb out!

Disclaimer: Best to full chassis brace a plastic type ute with a Patrol chassis slip joint over its top :-)
(Stops banana breakages midway they say)



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkReminds me of this article from Ron couple of years ago....great read:)

https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/bent-utes

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[MB]

We can break anything Nisshead mate if we try hard enough [emoji106][emoji106]


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[jack]

I think it explains less than what’s been discussed already because it doesn’t include the important info of the towball mass eating into the GVM of the tug.. that’s where most get caught out.

Agreed it doesn’t cover towball weight in the GVM but that’s covered on the sticker on the barn door. My GVM isn’t reduced because my towball weight is right on 200kg.

GVM is only reduced when it exceeds 200kg as stated on the sticker and owners manual.

[jff45]

Agreed it doesn’t cover towball weight in the GVM but that’s covered on the sticker on the barn door. My GVM isn’t reduced because my towball weight is right on 200kg.

GVM is only reduced when it exceeds 200kg as stated on the sticker and owners manual.

GVM is reduced by whatever weight you put on the towball. If you have 200 kg on the towball, that’s 200 kg lost from your payload.
As I said earlier, if you place a 200 kg motorbike on your towball it’s the same as if you put it on your roof rack.

[Maxhead]

Shit! I just hook up me van and tow? What is the problem???


The DMAx smashes it compared to the Patrol


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[jack]

GVM is reduced by whatever weight you put on the towball. If you have 200 kg on the towball, that’s 200 kg lost from your payload.
As I said earlier, if you place a 200 kg motorbike on your towball it’s the same as if you put it on your roof rack.

Not interested in getting into an argument, it was explained to me as follows for the Patrol:

200kg or less towball weight does not effect GVM
250kg or less towball weight less 150kg GVM
300kg or less towball weight less 220kg GVM
350kg or less towball weight less 290kg GVM

The 200kg is built it as standard: Note that the posted reductions don’t match the actual weight, they are graduated.

Edit: don’t take my word for this, check with the relevant authorities.

[PeeBee]

I got some junk mail subscriptions from a Pat Callighans article and it was a detailed assessment about how the authorities are making a country wide effort to get vehicles and vans off the road that are in excess of their statutory limits, so weight of vehicles, weight of vans and combined weights. Here is the article.

http://patcallinanmediapty.patcallinanmedia.com.au/index.php?action=social&chash=c6bff625bdb0393992c9d4db0c6bbe45.1425&

[jff45]

Not interested in getting into an argument, it was explained to me as follows for the Patrol:

200kg or less towball weight does not effect GVM
250kg or less towball weight less 150kg GVM
300kg or less towball weight less 220kg GVM
350kg or less towball weight less 290kg GVM

The 200kg is built it as standard: Note that the posted reductions don’t match the actual weight, they are graduated.

Edit: don’t take my word for this, check with the relevant authorities.

I'm not interested in arguing either but it is important to have information as accurate as possible for other readers.

The 200 kg isn't "built in". The Nissan stamped GVM is the gross mass the vehicle can legally be.
You can't load a 3000 kg GVM plated Patrol to 3000 kg and then add 200 kg extra in any shape or form, towball or otherwise. You will then be 200 kg overweight on any weighbridge.

The reason the posted reductions don't match actual weight is because of the increasing effect of the weight on the rear axle. Not only is the increased towball mass adding more weight to the rear axle by leverage but it also transfers weight from the front axle (hence why people use Weight Distribution Hitches).

Nissan are saying that you should reduce your allowed GVM by 290 kg before you add the 350 kg towball mass which is still part of your GVM. You effectively lose 290 + 350 kg from your original 3000 kg GVM. This is to prevent the excess on the rear axle exerted by the towball so far back.

Nissan are not saying "Hey, now that you've added that enormous weight to your rear axle, have another free 60 kg to throw in on top of that"

The Navara advice is a bit clearer with their sliding table. They have a very clear "Reduce Loaded Vehicle Mass" column.
..

79003

[bazzaboy]

Towing a 6m van with a 3lt Patrol is not high on my "want to do list", and I own a 2014 3lt. They are not the greatest tow vehicles.