Soft shackles. Anyone using them?

[10G]

Was going through my recovery gear yesterday, between my snatch block and shackles, there's alot of weight there.

Hopped onto eBay and found you can now buy soft shackles for about $35.

Anyone using them? Any recommendations? Reckon I might get some.

[Hodge]

I recall there being a multi-buy on the forum sometime ago. I think a few people here may be using them.
Careful with the cheapo ones. I saw some dirt cheap versions at the 4x4 show and the size/quality of the rope used to splice it was piss poor.

@MudRunnerTD (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/member.php?153-MudRunnerTD)

[10G]

Yeah OK, Thanks Hodge. I was looking at my snatch block and thought, "I've never used this bloody heavy piece of crap". Had a look at the alloy snatch wheels, just a polished piece of anodised alloy which you can use with rope. They weigh a poopteenth the weight of a snatch block, but not cheap. Thought I might get one, but then I thought I've never used my snatch block, so why bother.

Reckon I'll save around 5-10 Kgs if I get rid of my shackles and block.

I'm trying to loose weight. I'd love to get lithium batteries, but I'm waiting for a few more years.

[Winnie]

I used a soft shackle for the first time on Saturday and it did the job just nicely. No different to using a steel shackle. For weight saving and safety it's a no brainier.

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[10G]

There's tons of 'em on eBay, looks like everyone has learnt how to splice and is making & selling them.

[MudRunnerTD]

I have made a couple out of 12mm. Huge!!! Forgot them on the weekend damn it but used one of jonnos and it did great. No brainer for me.

If you have any New Rope then they are pretty easy to make.

[10G]

Is the type of knot important? Is one knot better than another??? Or is there only 1 knot???

[Hodge]

I have made a couple out of 12mm. Huge!!! Forgot them on the weekend damn it but used one of jonnos and it did great. No brainer for me.

If you have any New Rope then they are pretty easy to make.

This never really twigged in my head before...
Splicing rope is one of the very first thing we learnt during my apprenticeship, still got my original final examination samples I done. Eye splice my fave !!!

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78600&stc=1


And it just so happens, rope is a staple tool in my trade so, my work may have a few "off-cuts". Watch this space!

[the evil twin]

Is the type of knot important? Is one knot better than another??? Or is there only 1 knot???

There are about 3 knot options, I use the simplest (IMHO) to tie and weakest one... Diamond Knot... about 150% line strength been using it for years.
Button Knots (there are a couple) and Double Overhand are stronger but can be a turd to get tight and the Knot has to be seriously TIGHT or the Shackle may fail

[MudRunnerTD]

This never really twigged in my head before...
Splicing rope is one of the very first thing we learnt during my apprenticeship, still got my original final examination samples I done. Eye splice my fave !!!

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78600&stc=1


And it just so happens, rope is a staple tool in my trade so, my work may have a few "off-cuts". Watch this space!

Jump on youtube mate you dont splice dyneema that way. Pretty cool knots but Dyneema had evolved and so has the splicing required.

[MudRunnerTD]

Here is a good video for education on soft shackle and then shows you how to make one. Note this is not the vid i used but just watched the first half and looks good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vOW1sIkhIQ&feature=youtu.be


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91_jEjQdlBU

Note that a Button Knot with Buried ends is what i did and i like it alot.

[mudnut]

Is there any practical way of using soft shackles without a metal hook on the winch rope, to make it even safer in case of a failure?

[Hodge]

Is there any practical way of using soft shackles without a metal hook on the winch rope, to make it even safer in case of a failure?How about these thimbles or similar that come with some winches. I have one on the end of my runva winch.
Put a soft shackle through that hoop instead of the metal one ??? Is that something you're asking about? Not a bad idea.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/05/286.jpghttp://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/05/287.jpg

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[mudnut]

Still have the metal though. More like having a soft shackle with a large button knot and a large eye on the rope.

[MudRunnerTD]

Is there any practical way of using soft shackles without a metal hook on the winch rope, to make it even safer in case of a failure?

Hi Craig,

Yes you could simply splice an Eye Splice into the end of your winch rope and then use a soft shackle no problem.

[MudRunnerTD]

In case you were wondering. A 12mm soft shackle is Massive!!

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/03/335.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/03/336.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/03/337.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2019/03/338.jpg

That used 100inches of 12mm rope. Made one with 60inches and could not complete it was too small.

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These are the Soft Shackles i made with 12mm rope. Nearly 3m of rope in each!!

Note the Fid i made using a piece of 12mm curtain rod. worked perfect.

[GQtdauto]

Seen a snatch strap recovery go wrong on faceache ,metal shackle came off bogged vehicle and went straight through other fourby just beside the steering wheel .
Only reason driver is alive he must have been leaning out the window to look behind .
Soft shackles are the go .

[threedogs]

Safety is the number one priority on any recovery no matter how simple.
Plasma and Dyneema style rope has reduced the safety element heaps ,but
always treat any recovery with the utmost respect, it will bite you on the butt
if you let your guard down even for a moment

[10G]

I ordered some 10mm soft shackles. Biggest concern is if they will fit through my recovery points?

I'll still carry 1 x steel shackle.

Anyone used / seen these in real life? - https://www.red-winches.com/products/snatch-ring-18t/243/

[10G]

These are the Soft Shackles i made with 12mm rope. Nearly 3m of rope in each!!

Note the Fid i made using a piece of 12mm curtain rod. worked perfect.

That's bloody huge mate, you could use them as floaties when you learn to swim.

[Winnie]

Darren I know you are a big fan of the 12mm rope to make these shackles but would 10mm or 11mm be sufficient for most of us?
I reckon that one of Jonno's that we used last weekend was 9mm and seemed up to the task. Thinking about buying a few metres of rope to make a few shackles.

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[MudRunnerTD]

Darren I know you are a big fan of the 12mm rope to make these shackles but would 10mm or 11mm be sufficient for most of us?
I reckon that one of Jonno's that we used last weekend was 9mm and seemed up to the task. Thinking about buying a few metres of rope to make a few shackles.

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Yeah i reckon 10mm would he fine mate. Are you going to make some?

[Winnie]

Yeah i reckon 10mm would he fine mate. Are you going to make some?Thinking about it. Not straight away but in the future for sure.

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[MudRunnerTD]

Thinking about it. Not straight away but in the future for sure.

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If you buy new rope then buy an extra 10m or so and make a couple. Winner

[MudRunnerTD]

Need to reference this thread on snatch rings to this thread. Well worth a read for future reference.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?45378-Anyone-using-snatch-rings

[Winnie]

If you buy new rope then buy an extra 10m or so and make a couple. WinnerYeah my rope is not old so not wanting to replace the lot. Roadrunner sell per metre so I was thinking of getting enough to make a few shackles and an extension strap.

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[MudRunnerTD]

Yeah my rope is not old so not wanting to replace the lot. Roadrunner sell per metre so I was thinking of getting enough to make a few shackles and an extension strap.

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Buy a 20m or 28m length. 2 to 3m per soft shackle for a good size one.

[Winnie]

Buy a 20m or 28m length. 2 to 3m per soft shackle for a good size one.Is some winch rope better than others? This seems crazy cheap.
https://m.catch.com.au/product/winch-rope-10mm-x-30m-synthetic-dyneema-sk75-tow-recovery-cable-4wd-boat-car-3618120/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrJ7nBRD5ARIsAATMxstoy7NIU7oKn_qVqFo-QDd6jj-NeGCgGap2cUfrXAEmlls2GBzwAQUaAjW6EALw_wcB&offer_id=20279950

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[MudRunnerTD]

Is some winch rope better than others? This seems crazy cheap.
https://m.catch.com.au/product/winch-rope-10mm-x-30m-synthetic-dyneema-sk75-tow-recovery-cable-4wd-boat-car-3618120/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrJ7nBRD5ARIsAATMxstoy7NIU7oKn_qVqFo-QDd6jj-NeGCgGap2cUfrXAEmlls2GBzwAQUaAjW6EALw_wcB&offer_id=20279950

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SK75 will be fine mate. Its getting cheaper by the day mate. It really is sacrificial. There is no excuse for running ratty rope.

Id buy at least 11mm for your winch though. That would be perfect for some soft shackles and a winch extension though.

[Winnie]

SK75 will be fine mate. Its getting cheaper by the day mate. It really is sacrificial. There is no excuse for running ratty rope.

Id buy at least 11mm for your winch though. That would be perfect for some soft shackles and a winch extension though.Yeah cheers Daz, I remember spending a LOT more than that when I built my winch and yes, used 11mm.

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[MB]

In all honesty, would any good folks out there be keen for a weekend throughout our closed Vic winter tracks months to learn more?
I know I would with all the new age rope snatch pulley systems kindly suggested on this forum here etc..

What would it take to get a crew together with a weekend & hills testing teacher to learn splicing them monkey fist thingymebob’s safely?

Anyone interested?



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[MudRunnerTD]

In all honesty, would any good folks out there be keen for a weekend throughout our closed Vic winter tracks months to learn more?
I know I would with all the new age rope snatch pulley systems kindly suggested on this forum here etc..

What would it take to get a crew together with a weekend & hills testing teacher to learn splicing them monkey fist thingymebob’s safely?

Anyone interested?



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Im in. Keen ro teach Zach

[MB]

You Da Man Dazman!
I know the place, you got the knowledge!



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[rusty_nail]

where are we going im in

[MB]

Depending on group size was thinking the shack mate? If it were to grow with interest maybe a Marquee?
No coin weekend required but possibly a chip in for an MOQ big spool of rope and craftsmen attending take away their creations?


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[Winnie]

Depending on group size was thinking the shack mate? If it were to grow with interest maybe a Marquee?
No coin weekend required but possibly a chip in for an MOQ big spool of rope and craftsmen attending take away their creations?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm in for sure. Great idea Markie!

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[threedogs]

Does it help if you know how to splice rope [3 strand] or do you throw that
knowledge out the window now you are using Dyneema /plasma style rope?
MudRunnerTD

[Hodge]

Does it help if you know how to splice rope [3 strand] or do you throw that
knowledge out the window now you are using Dyneema /plasma style rope?
MudRunnerTDDifferent method John.

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[threedogs]

Yeah thats what I was thinking, maybe MudRunnerTD should show that Fid he made
so everyone can fashion one for themselves.

[threedogs]

Ended up buying 3 soft shackles [eBay] decent diameter price about $79
will allow me to remove my steel rated shackles about 3-4 kg maybe

[MB]

New to nuffy me these lightweight soft shackle rippers John mate and do like the idea of that extra abrasion protection wrap dinga stuff over them pictured.
Not sure what its called but seems to come also on the Aussie ‘Whittams’ rope prepackaged lines we’ve been buying somewhat locally in Victoriastan. rusty_nail mate are you still keen to help us kindly build a thread/poll/weekend for learning these new skills homemade?
We can chat with Whittams for decent bulk spools hopefully at the right price as we’re looking to again buy some pallets of work poly rolls etc...



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[MudRunnerTD]

New to nuffy me these lightweight soft shackle rippers John mate and do like the idea of that extra abrasion protection wrap dinga stuff over them pictured.
Not sure what its called but seems to come also on the Aussie ‘Whittams’ rope prepackaged lines we’ve been buying somewhat locally in Victoriastan. rusty_nail mate are you still keen to help us kindly build a thread/poll/weekend for learning these new skills homemade?
We can chat with Whittams for decent bulk spools hopefully at the right price as we’re looking to again buy some pallets of work poly rolls etc...



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Ohhhh! Whitham rope is the bomb mate. Let me know..... keen on a spare rope and maybe for something for the himount I have in the shed for the GU.

Great way to make a winch extension rope too.

[MudRunnerTD]

The sheath is 50/50 in my opinion. In very dirty conditions you can't see how much mud is under there. We used my home made 12mm soft shackles yesterday. Worked amazing. Was great to be able to see the rope without a sheath.

[Winnie]

New to nuffy me these lightweight soft shackle rippers John mate and do like the idea of that extra abrasion protection wrap dinga stuff over them pictured.
Not sure what its called but seems to come also on the Aussie ‘Whittams’ rope prepackaged lines we’ve been buying somewhat locally in Victoriastan. rusty_nail mate are you still keen to help us kindly build a thread/poll/weekend for learning these new skills homemade?
We can chat with Whittams for decent bulk spools hopefully at the right price as we’re looking to again buy some pallets of work poly rolls etc...



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNice one MB! I was chatting to Darren this weekend and we were saying that at about 2.5m of 10mm rope per soft shackle, 30m would get you at least 3 shackles and a 20m extension strap which would be awesome! Heaps better than the usual extension straps I reckon.

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[MB]

Sounds exciting Blokes, where to from here, marquee is bought and ready for some mountain craft lessons, just need some teachers whom know how to school?


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[10G]

I went and removed all my steel shackles, then jumped under the front and fed a soft shackle thru a recovery point. Not sure the softie would like being yanked on thru the recovery point as it has right angle edges on the hole. Same with the recovery point I use in my towbar.

I've thrown 1 steel shackle back in.

[Brissieboy]

Not sure the softie would like being yanked on thru the recovery point as it has right angle edges on the hole. Same with the recovery point I use in my towbar.
I agree totally. I an very wary about using them, even with a sheath, anywhere where there are metal corners that are not well rounded and smooth - that cannot be good for them, and must mean we should at least de-rate them in such circumstances. Just seems to be asking for trouble.

[the evil twin]

FWIW...
Soft shackles are 4 times the material (IE the single rope is doubled and doubled again) and by far the weakest point is the knot which I allocate as 50% of B.S. so, based on my experience with them on vessels over many years I rate my homemade Softies as follows;

For winching, rigging, redirects, towing etc IE non-kinetic applications 2 x B.S. ...That means 20 tons for 10mm, 15 tons for 8mm and 8 tons for 6mm (I don't use 30 ton 12mm for winching as there is no point)

For snatching IE kinetic applications 1 x B.S. ... that means 15 tons for 12mm, 10 tons for 10mm and 6 tons for 8mm (I don't use 6mm for kinetics)

Given most 4by Winches are 4 to 5 tons max line pull IE 8,000Lb to 12,000Lb and snatchies usually 8,000 Lb (less than or around 4 ton for 4X ) the winch stalls out or the snatchie lets go.

I tend to use 8mm (occasionaly 10mm) for snatching and 6 or 8mm for winching/towing/dragging.

Sooo... I carry 2x10mm, 2x8mm and 4x6mm (2 short and 2 long) in my "touring recovery kit"
I have a couple of lengths of random sheath (3 or 4 inches long) that I slide over the softie for use on recovery points with sharp edges if I can be bothered.

Bottom line is in most applications the softie is operating at under 1/4 to maybe 10% B.S. of the line it is made from...or 4 times to 10 times safety factor if you like... plus Dyneema is bloody tough so any metal edge has to be pretty damn sharp to cut it and even a few coats of paint or a slightest chamfer and the softie doesn't even notice it.

[10G]

FWIW...
Soft shackles are 4 times the material (IE the single rope is doubled and doubled again) and by far the weakest point is the knot which I allocate as 50% of B.S. so, based on my experience with them on vessels over many years I rate my homemade Softies as follows;

For winching, rigging, redirects, towing etc IE non-kinetic applications 2 x B.S. ...That means 20 tons for 10mm, 15 tons for 8mm and 8 tons for 6mm (I don't use 30 ton 12mm for winching as there is no point)

For snatching IE kinetic applications 1 x B.S. ... that means 15 tons for 12mm, 10 tons for 10mm and 6 tons for 8mm (I don't use 6mm for kinetics)

Given most 4by Winches are 4 to 5 tons max line pull IE 8,000Lb to 12,000Lb and snatchies usually 8,000 Lb (less than or around 4 ton for 4X ) the winch stalls out or the snatchie lets go.

I tend to use 8mm (occasionaly 10mm) for snatching and 6 or 8mm for winching/towing/dragging.

Sooo... I carry 2x10mm, 2x8mm and 4x6mm (2 short and 2 long) in my "touring recovery kit"
I have a couple of lengths of random sheath (3 or 4 inches long) that I slide over the softie for use on recovery points with sharp edges if I can be bothered.

Bottom line is in most applications the softie is operating at under 1/4 to maybe 10% B.S. of the line it is made from...or 4 times to 10 times safety factor if you like... plus Dyneema is bloody tough so any metal edge has to be pretty damn sharp to cut it and even a few coats of paint or a slightest chamfer and the softie doesn't even notice it.

So ET, I have 2 questions for you.

1 - I'm guessing BS doesn't stand for the BS I'm thinking it does?
2 - And I know this will be only your opinion and blah blah, but do you / would you use soft shackles with your recovery points? (I respect your opinion by the way).

[the evil twin]

So ET, I have 2 questions for you.

1 - I'm guessing BS doesn't stand for the BS I'm thinking it does?
2 - And I know this will be only your opinion and blah blah, but do you / would you use soft shackles with your recovery points? (I respect your opinion by the way).

B.S. = Breaking Strain... BS = 90% of the Internet ;)

Only places I use rated steel shackles are Snatch Blocks sometimes and I like Bow Shackles in Billet Hitches 'cause I like the way the rigging sits in the Bow but these days I will usually attach a Strap or whatever to the Bow with a Soft Shackle or ditto on a Vehicle that has the Shackles already on the Recovery Point.

FWIW I have the Pin tight in the Bow Shackle on my hitch so would need a spanner to undo it as all Shackle Manufacturers state a rated shackle is only rated if the Pin is nipped up not finger tight and/or backed off... it also means the shackle is still there after a day in the scrub and the pin hasn't rotated out.

Another thing to remember for a win on Trivia Night is a Bow Shackle W.L.L. rating is specified along the axis and reduces if the load comes from an angle (70% W.L.L. for 45 deg and 50% of W.L.L. for 90 degrees) like some recovery points that need the shackle pin thru the point.

[Brissieboy]

As I understand it, the general rule of thumb is the SWL is 20% of the minimum breaking strength for most applications. We should not really be using breaking strength to work out how these should be used safely. And that also assumes no other negative factors such as sharp corners which do not just cause mis-shaping of the item resulting in lowering its strength, but could also physically damage it.
I think these soft shackles need to be used well within their SWL. The steelies have been around for ages with literally millions in use in various applications and very few failures (of decent rated ones) when used within their SWL. I hope history proves the soft shackles to be (at least) as good.

[threedogs]

I would NOT recommend using these on any of my recovery points.
my points were designed for latch lok hooks or a suitable shackle.
I would think they would be OK for the pin in the hitch receiver.

[10G]

https://www.animatedknots.com/soft-shackle-knot-edwards

[MudRunnerTD]

https://www.animatedknots.com/soft-shackle-knot-edwards

I use a different knot to this as this has the potential to invert as the tails allow it to roll out. The evolved version buries the tails back into the knot which is a great upgrade.

[the evil twin]

I leave about 1 inch of tail, tease out the braid and melt the tails together and quickly roll them on a flat surface so they end up like a mushroom against the body of the knot... only way the knot is going to roll, invert or come loose is with a tactical nuke

A mate prefers to leave his tails long and then does a figure 8 whipped finish thru the tails.
He likes that method as it leaves a bit to grab on to if the knot snugs up tight.
He reckons pulling back on the tail breaks the grip of the sliding part of the shackle

I've not had that issue and I prefer my way (bit of venetian blind cord down the sliding section) but each to their own.

Edit... I've also seen softies with an inch or two of heatshrink up against the knot on the "shackle" side.
School of thought is that it does two things, siezes the two lengths prior to the knot and strengthens the point that the loop binds down upon and prevents chafing.

Makes sense but I like to be able to see that part as it def is the part that wears and I chuck 'em away when it gets damaged/frays in that area

[the evil twin]

FWIW... I have only ever seen two areas that fail on softies.
The inside area of the loop that seizes up against the knot.
The area of the double hard up against the knot that gets "worked" as the shackle loads/unloads.

Never seen a knot let go and never seen a break other than at the two areas mentioned BUT thats not to say it won't/can't happen... just never seen it myself