ZD30 Grenade question

[sierraKilo]

I have read in this forum and others about the ZD30 Grenade problem. Now I have a 2001 (although built in OCT 2000) GU with the ZD30. It has over 300,000 K's on it. I have only had it for 3 months and average about 1000k's per month.

Should I be worried? Or has the time bomb failed to go off (so to speak).

[the godfather]

Good question really. I am much in the same boat. Mine has done 200,000km's. I have read the preventative mods document but am still unsure. Although I know the MAF sensor is the issue, how do you know if it has been changed or not. I was thinking I would do the three main preventative options of a Snorkle, Turbo timer, and I guess change out the MAF sensor just in case...still a little unsure though. And confused.

[sierraKilo]

I have a snorkel, but don't know if any of the other mods (as per reference document) have been done. Being ex-nsw police vehicle I doubt if the egr has been blocked (don't think it's legal.

[the ferret]

Good question really. I am much in the same boat. Mine has done 200,000km's. I have read the preventative mods document but am still unsure. Although I know the MAF sensor is the issue, how do you know if it has been changed or not. I was thinking I would do the three main preventative options of a Snorkle, Turbo timer, and I guess change out the MAF sensor just in case...still a little unsure though. And confused.
Time to block the EGR, fit a catch can, egt gauge, boost gauge, clean the MAF, clean the inlet manifold, do away with the butterfly, run it on 200 to one two stroke and hope for the best!!
SORRY. but it's not too late. This is part of the NADS required to preserve your ZD30 and help prevent it from GRENADING!!

[the ferret]

I suggest you do the full NADS at your earliest oportunity.

[the ferret]

I have read in this forum and others about the ZD30 Grenade problem. Now I have a 2001 (although built in OCT 2000) GU with the ZD30. It has over 300,000 K's on it. I have only had it for 3 months and average about 1000k's per month.

Should I be worried? Or has the time bomb failed to go off (so to speak).

I'd be doing the full NADs, ASAP. Also spend some more time researching on how to preserve your ZD30, 300.000 clicks is a lot for that motor and I would be very surprised if it hadn't been re-built.
Most blow number 3 piston by 200.000ks.

[the godfather]

Nads??????

[the ferret]

I have a snorkel, but don't know if any of the other mods (as per reference document) have been done. Being ex-nsw police vehicle I doubt if the egr has been blocked (don't think it's legal.

Easy to check, pull the EGR off and have a gander, yer only gunna use it offroad anyway, so what's the diff. wink wink.

[the ferret]

Nads??????

NISSAN anti detonation system.

[the godfather]

Aaaah! I should have picked that up. Bit tired, brains in dumb arse mode.

[the ferret]

Aaaah! I should have picked that up. Bit tired, brains in dumb arse mode.
So will ya bank balance if you fail to research fully, the best ways to preserve your motor, Mr Nissan doesn't give a pork pie what it can cost you.
The guys on here do tho.

[YNOT]

Good question really. I am much in the same boat. Mine has done 200,000km's. I have read the preventative mods document but am still unsure. Although I know the MAF sensor is the issue, how do you know if it has been changed or not. I was thinking I would do the three main preventative options of a Snorkle, Turbo timer, and I guess change out the MAF sensor just in case...still a little unsure though. And confused.

The first things I would be doing are boost and pyro guages. Have you read this thread; http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?4421-Caring-for-your-diesel&highlight=gren02

Tony

[the godfather]

Sweet, thanks Tony. I will jump onto that this weekend.

[OldSkeptic]

Basic common sense would say that at 200,000km you must be doing something right and I'd just keep on doing it.

I tend to think this 'grenade' thing is a bit overblown, tending towards urban myth level.

Now this is a 3ltr engine running at 1atm boost, so it is a quite (for 4wds) highly boosted engine. Therefore looking after it, by good oil and changes, servicing, turbo management, etc goes without saying. Hey I had 2 WRXs, if you were an idiot you go blow that engine to all hell real fast. Look after it and it would last for ages. Similar for the 3D.

I have a friend, with a brand new GU 3.0D and he is now, from reading too many forums, paranoid about his engine. I keep emphasising a bit of common sense.

[the ferret]

I assure you my friend, it's no myth.
An oil change and filters once a week and driving like a Nanna is not going to stop the buildup of crap in the inlet manifold, around the valves and their guides, the intercooler and the ring bypass of carbon and bits of rust from the exhaust.
There are other things that contribute to premature engine failure, the NADS system is a proven system, but please yourself, it's your car after all.
If your friend has a new 3.0L, it's not a ZD30DI, so he shouldn't be paranoid about his engine blowing up.
There are life saving mods for those too, not as serious as for the ZD 30 DI.
The ZD 30 's reputation speaks for itself, don't just take my word for it. Scroll back to ynots post, page 12 and have a read of the link, You can take Tony's word as Gospel
Regards Rod.

PS, you can NEVER gleen too much info from a forum, most of it's there to help those un informed.
I would read this too!
One of the major causes of early build ZD30 engine failures was PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) oil vapours travelling back up the inlet ducting after engine shut down. This oil mist coats eventually coats the MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor causing it to send false readings to the engine computer. It is these false readings from the MAF sensor that often results in the engine over fueling and melting pistons. This is what people refer to as "grenading"
If you have a exhaust gas temperature (EGT or pyro) sensor you will see the temperature rise well above the 550 degrees C (post turbo) recommended maximum, the reason why pyro gauges are so important.

Regular cleaning of the MAF sensor will slow this process down but the best fix is to combine the pyro gauge and MAF sensor cleaning with a catch can or PCV filter. These filter out and collect the oil mist and stop it from coating the sensor.

Blocking the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) also helps, although it is illegal as you are tampering with an emmissions control device.
The carbon from the recirculated exhaust gases can build up in the inlet system over time and restrict air flow, again resulting in over fueling.

ZD30's have computer controlled turbo boost but at times it does not do a very good job of controlling the boost. At times it pulls the boost right down to allow the EGR to work (pointless if you have blocked the EGR) and at other times can allow boost spikes well past 20 Psi. Although the boost spikes themselves will not hurt the engine they can damage the intercoolers. The end tanks on the standard intercoolers are crimped on and repeated over boosting can loosen the crimping allowing boost to leak out. You will usually see an oil stain (condensed PCV oil mist) around the ends of the intercooler if they are leaking.
Fitting a Dawes and needle valve set up takes boost control away from the computer and lets you set the maximum boost and spool up rate.


The 2.8 (RD28) engines do not have a reputation or history of grenading like the ZD30 but the same principles apply, fit the boost and pyro gauges to keep an eye on what's happening in the engine, fit a PCV filter/catch can to keep oil mist from coating the MAF sensor, block the EGR. All of this combined will ensure the engine gets the maximum amount of air and keep the EGT's as low as possible.

Tony

[timbar]

damn good read lots if usefull information there good job tony and rod well presented

[Sir Roofy]

damn good read lots if usefull information there good job tony and rod well presented

x2 armed with this info it will make looking for another rig so much easier
as in leaks or new parts on older rigs
cheers

[the ferret]

Thanks Guys, but it is Tony who has done the research and was kind enough to post it up, I just put my bit up and resurected Tony's valuable input.
Cheers Rod.

[YNOT]

Basic common sense would say that at 200,000km you must be doing something right and I'd just keep on doing it.

I tend to think this 'grenade' thing is a bit overblown, tending towards urban myth level.

Now this is a 3ltr engine running at 1atm boost, so it is a quite (for 4wds) highly boosted engine. Therefore looking after it, by good oil and changes, servicing, turbo management, etc goes without saying. Hey I had 2 WRXs, if you were an idiot you go blow that engine to all hell real fast. Look after it and it would last for ages. Similar for the 3D.

I have a friend, with a brand new GU 3.0D and he is now, from reading too many forums, paranoid about his engine. I keep emphasising a bit of common sense.

Anyone who says the ZD30 grenade thing is overblown tending towards urban myth needs to do more research. You might have had 2 WRX's but have you ever owned a ZD30Di Patrol? I DO.

I did a lot of research and knew about the grenade issue before I got this Patrol. I have seen first hand the carbon build up in the inlet, the oil film that also coats the intake, and the color of the MAF sensor cleaning fluid as it removed the oil residue from the sensor. No my engine has not grenaded, I got it in time.

Regular servicing has nothing to do with the 2000-2003 ZD30Di engine failures, they fail regardless of servicing. Regular servicing does not stop EGR carbon build up in the inlet. Regular servicing does not stop PCV vapours fouling the MAF sensor, regular servicing does nothing for turbo management.
The engine failures referred to as "grenading" are very well documented and easy to find. It took me less than 2 minutes on google to find the 3 examples below. I know personally of several other failures and have seen talk of class actions against Nissan there have been so many failures.

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36189

patrol4x4.com/forum/nissan-patrol-gu-gr-10/zd30-options-27482/

http://198.106.177.4/complaints/update/display.asp?aid=2397

At 200,000km I would say he is very lucky but in my mind common sense would say at the very least install boost and pyro gauges so you can moniter the engine. The guages obviously won't stop an engine grenading on their own but they will at least give the driver the best chance to react hopefully in time to save the engine from damage.

Cleaning the inlet tract allows the full flow of air into the engine and allows the intercooler to cool more efficiently.

Fitting a PCV filter stops the build up of oil mist in the inlet and more importantly stops the oil mist coating the MAF sensor. A clean MAF sensor reads more accurately and therefore sends the right signals to the ECU.

Blocking the EGR (yes I'm aware that's illegal) stops the build up of carbon in the inlet. The build up of carbon can have a major effect on the air flow into the engine.

Unlike petrol engines (like the EJ20T) diesels run hot (exhaust emperatures) when they run rich. An inefficient intercooler and restricted airflow into the engine will cause the ZD30 to run rich. Combine that with a MAF sensor that is sending corrupted signals to the ECU because it's coated in oil and you have all the ingredients for a spectacular engine failure as MANY have found out. And they go off without any warning.
Fact or paranoia, you decide.

If your mate has a brand new 3.0D it will be a CRD engine which is not affected by the grenading issues.

Tony

NOTE: DIRECT LINK HAS BEEN REMOVED TO PATROL4X4 DUE TO PATROL4X4's VIRUS PROBLEMS, ENTERING THE ABOVE LINK INTO YOUR BROWSER YOU DO AT YOUR OWN RISK

KIND REGARDS

FORUM MANAGEMENT

[the ferret]

So there!!! stick that in ya pipe an smoke it all you un believers, God has spoken, who knows?
Tony knows.

[the godfather]

I believe. Never doubted. Fixing issues ASAP. Is there any specific PCV filter to use?
Blocking plate for the EGT sensor is no biggie.
Only other question I have is does all this need toe done at the same time? Ie, blocking plate and filter.

[GUIV]

I used Provent 200, a bit pricy (~$200) but does its job. I recently removed the intercooler and all piping and there is nothing to clean. I still regularly clean the MAF sensor with MAF sensor cleaner or contact cleaner.

http://www.mann-hummel.com/industrialfilters/index.html?iKeys=22.1.252.1.1&cScr=75&v_pbid=19&v_pid01=44

While on the subject, how can I clean the carbon deposite on the intake manifold and head without removing them? I removed the swirl contral valve body and bush off the carbon sludge using degreaser. But it is too involve in removing the intake manifold, not the mention the complexity of the cylinder head, so and cleaning in-situ would be appreciated.

[YNOT]

I also have a Provent 200, highly recommended.

The Godfather, no it does not all need to be done at once but always do the guages first. ZD30's are very sensitive to airflow changes and blocking the EGR can affect turbo boost. If you find the turbo boosting excessively you may need to adjust the boost limiting grub screw until such time as you get to fit a Dawes valve.
I never doubted you were a believer!

GUIV, if there is an easy way to clean out the carbon deposits I would like to know what it is. I have done the same as you and cleaned as much as I can without removing the inlet manifold and head. I could probably clean more by spraying carby cleaner down the intake manifold but I don't want the carbon going into the engine so I have not done it.

Tony

[GUIV]

Tony, but even if you do not clean the sludge, there is no garantee that these sludge will not dislodge itself and fall into the engine and get burnt. I come across this product call Wynn's EGR3 from the Patrol4x4.com. I have not tried it yet, just wanted to hear if there is any other method.

patrol4x4.com/forum/nissan-patrol-gu-gr-10/how-clean-sludge-intake-manifold-without-removing-67012/

There are some mechanic equips with the "Carbon Clean" Do you think it will do the job??

NOTE: DIRECT LINK HAS BEEN REMOVED DUE TO PATROL4X4's VIRUS PROBLEMS, ENTERING THE ABOVE LINK INTO YOUR BROWSER YOU DO AT YOUR OWN RISK

KIND REGARDS

FORUM MANAGEMENT

[sparra 1]

oh no dont tell me i just bourght some thing thats gunna die and cost me a lot of money ive got a nissan patrol gu 2 3lt directed injected 2000 modle sound scarry now

[Sir Roofy]

you,ll be ok mate just read and ponder its not all gloom and doom
there are people here to guide you threw any issues you have

[the ferret]

Yeah, depending on the Ks, do a few of the mods and she'll be a goody, so there, ya can sleep tonight!!......................................... ................................I think lol.

[the godfather]

All problems aside, they are a hell of a 4WD. Mine gets in and out of some pretty severe places.

[sparra 1]

its done 200,000 ks now ferret

[the ferret]

its done 200,000 ks now ferret

OK, that's a fair few Ks, but not unusual, If it was mine, I'd be doing the mods and getting the max life out of it.
Cheers.

[Dr Gary]

I know this is an old thread, but what is the story with the two stroke oil?? Replacement for the oil that gets recirculated??

[the ferret]

I know this is an old thread, but what is the story with the two stroke oil?? Replacement for the oil that gets recirculated??

Hi Dr Gary, the two stroke oil added to the fuel at a rate of 200 to 1, helps to replace the lack of lubricant, created by the removal of sulphur in the modern diesel fuel.
I run this in my 2.8TD and find a small fuel saving.
It seems to quieten the engine a bit and would also lube the injector pump.
You would be advised tho, to seek further info before adding two stroke oil to the fuel in your common rail motor.
Cheers, the ferret.

[Yendor]

Hi Dr Gary, the two stroke oil added to the fuel at a rate of 200 to 1, helps to replace the lack of lubricant, created by the removal of sulphur in the modern diesel fuel.
I run this in my 2.8TD and find a small fuel saving.
It seems to quieten the engine a bit and would also lube the injector pump.
You would be advised tho, to seek further info before adding two stroke oil to the fuel in your common rail motor.
Cheers, the ferret.

Good to see you back in the saddle mate.

Your knowledge and wisdom is a valued asset to this forum and one I would hate to see lost due to some tool.

Cheers Rodney

[the ferret]

Good to see you back in the saddle mate.

Your knowledge and wisdom is a valued asset to this forum and one I would hate to see lost due to some tool.

Cheers Rodney

Thanks Rodney, I'm not going anywhere mate, this is a great Forum, I enjoy it too much to bolt.
I'm over it, just spat the dummy is all, rules have changed.
Cheers, the ferret.

[Sir Roofy]

thank heavans for that glad your staying mate

[adventurepaul]

Whats the swirl butterfly removal mod?? I know there is 2 vac operated valves in the intake past the cooler..... Which one to block and why?

[Dr Gary]

Hi Ferret and all:
So I need to control oil vapor getting to MAF. Is the catch can an alternative to the PCV filter, or do both do the same job? Or do I need both??
I know I would need to empty the catch can, but what is the maintenance on the PCV filter? What brands are better PCV filters?

[the ferret]

Dr Garry, just block the EGR and fit a Provent 200 catch can, this should keep the MAF clean.
You may need to also fit a boost control and an EGT sensor and gauge.
This is all part of the NADS.
Cheers, the ferret.

[mudski]

Whats the swirl butterfly removal mod?? I know there is 2 vac operated valves in the intake past the cooler..... Which one to block and why?
I'm keen to know this too.
I believe there is no reason for a ZD30 to grenade is the NADs has been done. As the reason for them grenading was overboosting issues and holing usually no.3 and 4 pistons.
I did what I call the NADs PLUS :D The plus being gutting the cat to further reduce the exhaust temps and also give a little more power.
Just to add, I fitted a Provent aver a month ago and I check the filter and its still like brand new.

[Sir Roofy]

Hi Ferret and all:
So I need to control oil vapor getting to MAF. Is the catch can an alternative to the PCV filter, or do both do the same job? Or do I need both??
I know I would need to empty the catch can, but what is the maintenance on the PCV filter? What brands are better PCV filters?

asferret said the provent 200 catch can is the best simple to install keeps the MAF clean,easy to inspect,i got 60ml out of mine after being in for 3mths
hope this helps----roofy

[mudski]

I haven't even run a drain tube and bottle for mine yet. Still dry as goats inside it after a month.

[boots]

Whats the swirl butterfly removal mod?? I know there is 2 vac operated valves in the intake past the cooler..... Which one to block and why?

Thats for the 2.8 litre engine that mod .

[Dr Gary]

Hi "The Ferret"
So I looked for MAF, and it appears there are two sensors, one in the intake pipe after the air cleaner, and the second directly in front of the intercooler, It seems the first one is not relevant to NADS, so am I looking to understand if I have this correct.
There is definite evidence of oil from the crank case vent, so the Provent (or similar) seems the answer here.
What is a safe solvent to clean MAF?

[threedogs]

Super Cheap sell MAF cleaner , i got mine from JAYCAR called electronic component cleaner , make sure dry before you re install it

[the ferret]

Dr Garry, the one near the airbox is your MAF, to clean it, use Maf sensor cleaner, spray it on over a white rag so you can see when it's clean.
Do not touch any part of the metal components with your fingers, don't even wipe it with the rag.
Yes, the Provent is the best, not the cheapest but very good.
It would also pay to remove the intercooler and give that a good clean out as well as the intake manifold.
There are other solvents to clean these, petrol is one, but you must remove all traces of petrol by washing before starting the motor.
Cheers, the ferret.