2017 Y61 3 liter diesel surging and power issues

[Darrylbandit]

Hi everyone. After looking around at all options for a proper overlanding 4x4 i went for a 2017 Y61 3 liter diesel and started kitting it out. I put fox suspension in and BF Goodriches, rooftop tent drawer system the lot. The added weight made the vehicle sluggish and so i did the pipe and a unichip, which gave me power surging Under load. I had a madman fitred and my EGT's run up to 750 degrees under serious strain on an uphill. I don't think that the tuning guys have enough experience with this motor.
I would appreciate any help with this as well as advice on the best intercooler and possibly bigger turbo as well.

[mudski]

@ Bidja
What turbo do you have mate?


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[Hodge]

Hi everyone. After looking around at all options for a proper overlanding 4x4 i went for a 2017 Y61 3 liter diesel and started kitting it out. I put fox suspension in and BF Goodriches, rooftop tent drawer system the lot. The added weight made the vehicle sluggish and so i did the pipe and a unichip, which gave me power surging Under load. I had a madman fitred and my EGT's run up to 750 degrees under serious strain on an uphill. I don't think that the tuning guys have enough experience with this motor.
I would appreciate any help with this as well as advice on the best intercooler and possibly bigger turbo as well.

Hey mate. Apart from unichip and larger exhaust, is there a needle and dawes valve fitted ?
You could be overboosting and sending it into limp mode.

When I had my CRD, I also had a unichip fitted and tuned on the car, but this still gave me limp mode issues after several criteria have been met, for example boost sitting at certain spot for a certain time and throttle hasnt backed off for X amount of seconds or minutes etc.
But I still retained the valves for better control and the car was awesome to drive after that as I had the extra power and proper manual boost control.




These CRD's have a horrible factory boost control IMO. It's basically a yoyo. And sometime it dips under load, sending the EGT's sky high.
Needle and dawes valve will tame it and make it a nice smooth linear boost curve as well as limit the boost to your liking, preventing the limp modes. Fitting these transformed the way car drove.

[Bidja]

Hi everyone. After looking around at all options for a proper overlanding 4x4 i went for a 2017 Y61 3 liter diesel and started kitting it out. I put fox suspension in and BF Goodriches, rooftop tent drawer system the lot. The added weight made the vehicle sluggish and so i did the pipe and a unichip, which gave me power surging Under load. I had a madman fitred and my EGT's run up to 750 degrees under serious strain on an uphill. I don't think that the tuning guys have enough experience with this motor.
I would appreciate any help with this as well as advice on the best intercooler and possibly bigger turbo as well.

Have 08 CRD - ECU remap(ECPT Tuggerah, NSW), NADS, manual boost control (tillix/needle), Jonny Tig (tube & fin cooler), h/f turbo, 3" exhaust, improved induction(important).
Had no experience with Unichip, very happy with ECU remap (postal $750) with full manual boost control. Runs well.

As Hodge mention take control of your max boost and spool.

Regarding other mods, U can spend lots of $$$ working your way thru, bigger coolers/better better induction. Decide where you want to end up and what dollars you can put into it.

I have a Garrett M24 housing-Procharge stage 3 high flow turbo(max boost 26psi), Aust company(Sunbury, Vic), $1600 to rework yours - is what I have. They supply new $2400.
Personally, I would hold off on new turbo at the moment. I have done a lot of trial and error adjustment with my actuator rod length as I initially found it a bit laggy in 4@5 gear low down but now pretty happy.
Need to install my 4" airbox and snorkel - 2nd upgrade see more $$$.

Agree, the surge is mostly caused by tune. Look with stock cooler / safari snorkel, I would have pushed 750C solid hauling/working hard (boost 18-22psi). From stock, I dropped EGTs a good 100C-150C with improved induction 3" to turbo (pipework/airbox) $1000-1400 (4" should be better), and large Jonny Tig (fin & tube) cooler $2200. Look other option available, depends what you are after. Cross Country Ultimate $2400 is also a very good cooler along similar design lines. The CC "upgrade" cooler $1600 would be a good one to think about-just depends. There other cheaper good option.

Need to know more to advise better.

Tell us a bit more: do U have boost gauge and scan tool?
Do U know what is the max boost?
What induction/cooler do you have?
NADS?
Roughly where are you located?

[Darrylbandit]

@ Bidja
What turbo do you have mate?


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Its still the stock turbo.......

[Darrylbandit]

Legend thanks so much, the max boost from the stock turbo tops out at 1,1 bar and the surging happens betweens say 0,7 and 0,9. It sure that optimum power isnt being reached right now, any recommendations where to order the Dawes valve?

[Darrylbandit]

Thanks so much for this, soooooo helpful mate.

Tell us a bit more: do U have boost gauge and scan tool? Yes I have a madman fitted
Do U know what is the max boost? Yes 1,1 bar
What induction/cooler do you have? stock
NADS? Not sure what that is
Roughly where are you located? In South Africa

[Bidja]

Darryl, had a look at the Madman monitoring tool (OBD11 compliant). Does it have the ability to erase fault codes?
It appears to only monitor performance parameters with alarms (eg: boost, ECT, EGTs, oil pressure etc).

Also noted on another forum here in Aust, that people were having issues re: accurracy of reading pressure (boost) and the resorted to mechanical gauges for boost readings when setting for max boost.


Unfortunately I have had problems with my unit. The EGT works great, however the boost pressure does not. I purchased the vdo sender with the EMS unit and CANNOT get it to give accurate boost readings no matter how hard I try. To compound the issue, the EMS software incorrectly converts BAR to PSI at 1 BAR to 10 PSI (it should be 14.5 PSI) so you cannot switch between display in PSI or BAR and receive an accurate reading.

Ultragauge EMPlus is a good option.

The suitability of the tool is your choice and is to based on your personnel experience.
You say max boost is 1.1 bar (16psi), well that is an OK conservative level for stock engine. But you may be able to raise that with Dawes as long as you do not get limp. You must have the ability to erase faults eg: limp due to over boosting. Note: higher boost level will help reduce EGTs but between 16-18 psi not that much.

With regards to purchase of a Dawes/needle valve you could contact Darren Dawes in the USA. The Dawes you want is the 3 Bar Racing (black body).
https://dawes-devices.com/.

Coolers we can speak more but you need a TIG welded inter cooler larger the better but as I said the induction needs to breath easy. If still having surge issues after installing manual boost control, maybe consider getting your ECU remapped and do away with Unichip. You would set up max boost/spool with the dawes/needle yourself (easy). If ECU remap is not a local option there, then maybe able to help out over here. You would have to decide and look at costs. Have a look at this link:
https://ecpt.com.au/results/nissan/patrol/zd30crd-patrol-chip-remap-comparison/

NADS consists of a series of engine modification to assist in the providing for greater reliability/life of your engine. One thing you should consider is a catch can (eg: ProVent200), it is basically a container with a strainer in it, to separate oil from an oil mist vapour that comes from the crank case (positive crank case ventilation system)and this oil residue is contained in the catch can that you drain off at service intervals. It helps in preventing this unwanted contaminated oil residue from feeding back into the engine via your induction system (pre turbo).

[Darrylbandit]

Ok cool, I have just ordered the Jonny Tig intercooler kit then it will go back to the tuners for fitment and the Dawes valve. I dont think I can erase the fault codes with the madman, but its already money spent so ill leave it for now....

Once this is set up, can you think of anything else that I can do besides a bigger turbo. Thanks again I really appreciate it. Ive attached a pic of my ride so far.77362

[Bidja]

Jonny Tig cooler are a tube & fin construction (good choice). The core is 606 x 300 x 76mm. They are doing discounts at the moment.

These coolers being near same as CC Ultimate can resonate (produce a loud whistle /jet like sound under load at higher boost levels). Caused by the air rushing thru the core tubes and air turbulence occurs at the tube exit points at side plate. With stock turbo on CRD maybe no issue, but you certainly do with CRD fitted h/f turbo and for the TD42. I have done a fix on mine which I can share later if you have the problem. Jon from Jonny Tig was keen on the method of fix, but not sure if he has incorporated it yet. You could ask him and mention me (John) from New South Wales who visited and he will let you know what the go is.

You need to be able to clear trouble codes, could be some of your current problem. The Youtube video on Madman, they did not mention clearing trouble codes. Have a look at Ultragauge, can buy direct from USA manufacturer:

http://ultra-gauge.com/ultragauge/ultragauge_wired.htm

Other things to do:

Fit a catch can.
Upgrade your induction system, especially from airbox to turbo. You are lucky, with the JT cooler you do away with the restrictive pipework from turbo outlet to cooler hot tank(inlet side of cooler) and use only the existing 2.5" x 45 degree elbow to connect between turbo to cooler.

To save maney we could talk you thru installing the Dawes and needle valve. Good to know for yourself and to set boost and spool. Just a thought.

[Darrylbandit]

Excellent ill look into that, yes please take me through installing the Dawes and needle valve this will help a great deal.

We are also at a higher altitude where I live at around 1400 metres would that maybe also have exaggerated the surging issues?

Thanks again

[Bidja]

Excellent ill look into that, yes please take me through installing the Dawes and needle valve this will help a great deal.

We are also at a higher altitude where I live at around 1400 metres would that maybe also have exaggerated the surging issues?

Thanks again

My CRD, have used Dawes and now Tillix, both good kit. I like the way Tillix is handling the higher boost (26psi). I am not saying that the Dawes would not be suitable, it is just what the tuner preferred when I had the first tune with new Procharge h/f turbo. I have always ran the Italian made Tognella needle valve. I recently installed the Tillix kit (boost and needle valves) in another vehicle and all went real well (CRD Auto).

Attached for you to have a look at: (Chaz-manual boost controller, specifically Single stage TDi Dawes Manual Boost Control systems). Have a read of this first and if more help needed, ask when you get your kit.

http://www.chaz.yellowfoot.org/Manual%20Boost%20Controller.htm

Remember the Vac solenoid is to be isolated (blocked off)_refer Chaz doc and the poor photo attached (loop back the first two ports and for the third just cut it off say 50mm length and put a screw in it(screw not shown).

77375

Note: With the VNT solenoid being isolated with manual boost control for CRD, solenoid needs to remain plugged in to wiring loom. There is a fix using a resistor but I left the solenoid in place and electrically connected.


Chaz document provides instruction to set boost and spool.

In general, as the CRD can handle max spool, you can set max boost with needle valve fully closed.
Set Dawes/Tillix to say 16 psi, observed by driving up hill (slight load) 3rd gear at approx 3000rpm, for a duration around 10sec and observe if you get limp. This is where you need a scan tool for clearing any limp fault. If you get limp back boost off to 15.5psi etc until no limp occurs. If no limp at 16psi, increase boost up in 0.5 psi increments and when limp occurs back off slightly (to achieve no limp). With stock ECU max boost is approx 16-16.5 psi. You may get higher, remember that limp is most likely to occur when hauling and especially when towing up hill under load..

Then you can adjust needle valve for the spool rate that suits.
IMO, after setting max boost (with needle closed), with veh stationary, eng at idle, unscrew needle valve to where the actuator rod just starts to drop down (lever off the stop/grub screw) and then wind it in 1/8 a turn. This should give reasonable spool.
Do not adjust this stop screw.

Altitude influence - I live at 600m and often travel up to 1400-1500m. With stock size (Tig welded) cooler @ 600m there was a 1-1.5 psi drop across cooler and at 1400m gave 3psi drop. Pressure drop across JT cooler is not influenced much at all by these altitude variations. The surge you are experiencing maybe caused by poor induction flow, IC pressure drop (eg: boost) or even actuator rod length adjustment. Actuator rod length should be adjusted to where the actuator lever just rises and hits the grub screw stop (CRD) with a vacuum applied of approx 14 inches of mercury (14"Hg). I have done a bit of adjustment here with my h/f turbo as it was being laggy low down in higher gears.. First install your JT cooler, manual boost control and do tune.