Lead Crystal Batteries?

[10G]

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with lead crystal batteries?

I need to run medical equipment at night which runs off 240VAC. I have a 300W inverter and an old lead acid deep cycle battery which won't do so I'm looking for alternatives.

AGM and traditional lead acid batteries I don't think will have enough time to charge between night times, so I'm looking at the lead crystal batteries as I've read they can charge 2-3 times quicker.

I'm keen to hear from anyone with any experience with lead crystal and any recommendations people may have, about people I can get in touch with to purchase from.

[PeeBee]

10G, I think you should be looking at capacity and DOD (depth of discharge) instead of focusing on charge -re charge rate unless you only have a tiny window of opportunity to work with. Cuppa might be able to chime in as he runs some critical gear thru the night as well and easily recharges it via a combination of solar and running the car. Unfortunately I have never heard of lead crystal batteries. The charge up time will be directly relative to the DOD, and if your charge rate and controller are suitably sized you may be OK. What capacity are you looking for and what is the envelope size you are putting as a maximum size? What is your charge controller, or dual battery system and does it do multi stage charging? What is its charge rate?

[Clunk]

Not sure what the med equipment is but I run my CPAP machine off a 35AH Aldi battery quite happily. Charge it up for a few hours via solar

[Yeti's Beast]

Lead crystals need to be charged at 30% of the batteries capacity compared to 10% which is standard for other batteries. So if you get 100 ah battery it needs 30 amps going into it to charge properly. This is a fact stated by the manufacturer.
They are more expensive and in my mind not worth the extra money and I have found they don’t charge noticeably faster.
Your either better off with an agm or a quality Gel like a Sonnenschein or go all out and buy a lithium


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[the evil twin]

^^^^ Agree

I would go Lithium with built in BMS to keep the cells balanced.
Last a poo poo lot longer, much lighter and can be around 1/2 the AH rating of AGM for what you want so smaller as well.

EG quality 120AH RV batteries (IE 100 Amp or less max current) are well under $1,000 bucks now... crankers are still a bit dearer

Here is the small discussion from last year... I still reckon either AGM or Lithium and give the Crystals a miss
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?41010-Lead-crystal-battery&highlight=crystal+batteries

[10G]

Not sure what the med equipment is but I run my CPAP machine off a 35AH Aldi battery quite happily. Charge it up for a few hours via solar

Hey Clunk, a CPAP m/c is exactly what I am needing to run so any tips would be greatly appreciated. The m/c we have requires 24V at 3.75 amps.

Also, I have pretty much nothing 2nd battery wise ATM. I have a 5 year old Century lead acid battery and a Redarc SBI12, no solar panels, so I'm open to any suggestions for panels, chargers, batteries and so on.

[the evil twin]

IMHO, given the latest tech and trying to be brief...

You now only need a 2nd 'cranker' spec battery (capable of high current draw) if you want to use it in parallel for winching.
You also only need that for prolonged/regular winching otherwise a good cranker and decent Alt will usually suffice.
For 'emergency' jumps I carry a Lithium Power Pack as they hold charge for yoinks and will happily start my 6.5 Chev, walk up start for 3rd party IE no jumper leads and also run a lappy or whatever for quite a few hours.

The above means you can use a lower max current spec battery for vehicle aux or camper/van house applications and they are usually up to 20% cheaper.
Cheapest solution is AGM and fine if weight, space, voltage sag and cycles aren't an issue.

Best solution ATM is Lithium (by a mile 'cept for initial cost) especially for voltage sensitive stuff and you will get equivalent use out of a battery approx 40% smaller so when comparing price a 60AH is approx equal to a 100 AH AGM.
It/they will also last much longer but a lot of us may not see that advantage in reccy use but it means the bottom line over extended time is the Liths are now almost equiv to AGM in price.
If you get one that has the 'onboard BMS' most refer too then any charge source is equally good for either tech.

Charge sources (when not using as a 2nd cranker/wincher)... IMHO again...
Aux in vehicle... Battery Isolator only
Aux in vehicle and solar panels... Battery Isolator and dinky little quality Solar Controller or genuine full MPPT if you really want
Aux in trailer/van... combo DC/DC MPPT multiple input Controller

[10G]

IMHO, given the latest tech and trying to be brief...

You now only need a 2nd 'cranker' spec battery (capable of high current draw) if you want to use it in parallel for winching.
You also only need that for prolonged/regular winching otherwise a good cranker and decent Alt will usually suffice.
For 'emergency' jumps I carry a Lithium Power Pack as they hold charge for yoinks and will happily start my 6.5 Chev, walk up start for 3rd party IE no jumper leads and also run a lappy or whatever for quite a few hours.

The above means you can use a lower max current spec battery for vehicle aux or camper/van house applications and they are usually up to 20% cheaper.
Cheapest solution is AGM and fine if weight, space, voltage sag and cycles aren't an issue.

Best solution ATM is Lithium (by a mile 'cept for initial cost) especially for voltage sensitive stuff and you will get equivalent use out of a battery approx 40% smaller so when comparing price a 60AH is approx equal to a 100 AH AGM.
It/they will also last much longer but a lot of us may not see that advantage in reccy use but it means the bottom line over extended time is the Liths are now almost equiv to AGM in price.
If you get one that has the 'onboard BMS' most refer too then any charge source is equally good for either tech.

Charge sources (when not using as a 2nd cranker/wincher)... IMHO again...
Aux in vehicle... Battery Isolator only
Aux in vehicle and solar panels... Battery Isolator and dinky little quality Solar Controller or genuine full MPPT if you really want
Aux in trailer/van... combo DC/DC MPPT multiple input Controller

Thanks for the info ET, greatly appreciated.

I've been looking into this today. So far, looking into lithium, I've seen on the enerdrive web site, the guy say that lithium batteries shouldn't really be kept under the bonnet & not used for cranking and the DCS guy use them for winching and showing them hooked up under the bonnet, so I need to look into that a bit more.

I'm looking into solar. Any recommendations on manufacturers? I know Redarc, but are there any other reputable solar panel manaufacturers/ brands I could look at as alternatives?

Also lithium. I know about enerdrive, any other brands that are worth looking at?

[Yeti's Beast]

Lithium shouldn’t be used under bonnet because it’s BMS has a temp compensation program. Agm/ Gel/ Lithium and even Lead Crystal all like to operate in cooler temps for longevity. These sealed batteries really on micro recombination of its electrolyte, the hotter they get the quicker they dry out. Remember heat equals resistance to a charger. The hotter the battery the more resistance so more amps go into the battery and can cause what’s known as Thermal Runaway.
When we sell batteries to data rooms for UPS they are in air conditioned rooms set to between 25-27 c. This give the batteries the best chance to last 5 - 10 years
We have seen many times that when the air con fails the batteries get too hot and the charger goes crazy to the point the batteries catch fire.
Enerdrive is a good company and can build you a custom battery. I know the owner personally. Ask them for information based on your needs and they will tailor make something for you.


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[the evil twin]

^^^^ What Yeti said x 2.

I wouldn't put a Lith under bonnet at all and only put a 2nd battery under the bonnet as an absolute last resort unless you want it for winching.
I might also add I only use fully maintainable SLA's under bonnet (Caterpillar to be exact)

Battery Isolation I like Redarc for simple solutions, Intervolt for programmable apps

Solar I like Intervolt, Victron, Morningstar and Tracer but the best rule is you get what you pay for... I like those 4 'cause I am used to them

Combo DC/DC Solar for reccy vehicles hard to split Redarc and Ctek.
DC/DC only I like Intervolt and FWIW I have had a suprisingly good run out of some Powertech (Jaycar) gear.
Enerdrive have a cracking reputation and I have yet to use their gear but if Yeti likes them that works for me

I am starting to go off Ctek as they have let others catch or pass them esp in their Mains Chargers

Bottom line is Redarc, Intervolt and Victron (and I am sure Enerdrive) have excellent tech and customer service so it's hard for me to change away and therefore make a call on a lot of other brands as I haven't laid a hand on them.

[10G]

Lithium shouldn’t be used under bonnet because it’s BMS has a temp compensation program. Agm/ Gel/ Lithium and even Lead Crystal all like to operate in cooler temps for longevity. These sealed batteries really on micro recombination of its electrolyte, the hotter they get the quicker they dry out. Remember heat equals resistance to a charger. The hotter the battery the more resistance so more amps go into the battery and can cause what’s known as Thermal Runaway.
When we sell batteries to data rooms for UPS they are in air conditioned rooms set to between 25-27 c. This give the batteries the best chance to last 5 - 10 years
We have seen many times that when the air con fails the batteries get too hot and the charger goes crazy to the point the batteries catch fire.
Enerdrive is a good company and can build you a custom battery. I know the owner personally. Ask them for information based on your needs and they will tailor make something for you.


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^^^^ What Yeti said x 2.

I wouldn't put a Lith under bonnet at all and only put a 2nd battery under the bonnet as an absolute last resort unless you want it for winching.
I might also add I only use fully maintainable SLA's under bonnet (Caterpillar to be exact)

Battery Isolation I like Redarc for simple solutions, Intervolt for programmable apps

Solar I like Intervolt, Victron, Morningstar and Tracer but the best rule is you get what you pay for... I like those 4 'cause I am used to them

Combo DC/DC Solar for reccy vehicles hard to split Redarc and Ctek.
DC/DC only I like Intervolt and FWIW I have had a suprisingly good run out of some Powertech (Jaycar) gear.
Enerdrive have a cracking reputation and I have yet to use their gear but if Yeti likes them that works for me

I am starting to go off Ctek as they have let others catch or pass them esp in their Mains Chargers

Bottom line is Redarc, Intervolt and Victron (and I am sure Enerdrive) have excellent tech and customer service so it's hard for me to change away and therefore make a call on a lot of other brands as I haven't laid a hand on them.

Thank you both for your very useful information.

I rang up Enerdrive and spoke about what I was wanting to do. The Enerdrive chap said I'd need the $3500 200AH battery, so I ended up doing more homework.

It looks like I'll be able to get away with a much smaller AGM (maybe lithium, not sure) battery and just changing a few settings on the cpap machine.

[Yeti's Beast]

It all depends on how much the machine uses and how long you use it for. If your going to use inverters etc remember they chew up the power. Did you say it was 24 volt?


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[Clunk]

Hey Clunk, a CPAP m/c is exactly what I am needing to run so any tips would be greatly appreciated. The m/c we have requires 24V at 3.75 amps.

Also, I have pretty much nothing 2nd battery wise ATM. I have a 5 year old Century lead acid battery and a Redarc SBI12, no solar panels, so I'm open to any suggestions for panels, chargers, batteries and so on.Hey mate I don't use anything fancy. The cpap machine I have is. Resmed Airsense10 and connect it direct to the 35ah aldi battery using the resmed dc converter https://www.perthcpap.com.au/products/resmed-airsense-10-12v-dc-converter

120W Solar panel is again an Aldi jobbie

I tend to not bother running the heated tube and humidifier when running off a battery... Just to save some juice.

[Clunk]

I just tent it and dont have a camper van. Might be an idea to have a chat with Cuppa and see what sort of set up he has in his Tvan, I think his cpap is a devilbliss intellipap 2

[10G]

Hey Clunk thanks for getting back to me.

We have exactly the same machine. I came across all the cpap info this evening in a few threads on a US cpap site. Looks like I'll be doing exactly the same as you, the Resmed converter, a battery and some way to recharge the battery.

Leads me to another question.

I have a lead acid battery as my aux battery and it is hooked up to a Redarc SBI12 isolator. How could I hook the cpap battery, up to get recharged, can use that SBI12 some way????

[10G]

It all depends on how much the machine uses and how long you use it for. If your going to use inverters etc remember they chew up the power. Did you say it was 24 volt?


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Yep, it's 24v, but I found out that manufacturer makes a converter so you can run it of a 12v battery, about $120, so I'll go that way.

[10G]

Hey mate I don't use anything fancy. The cpap machine I have is. Resmed Airsense10 and connect it direct to the 35ah aldi battery using the resmed dc converter https://www.perthcpap.com.au/products/resmed-airsense-10-12v-dc-converter

120W Solar panel is again an Aldi jobbie

I tend to not bother running the heated tube and humidifier when running off a battery... Just to save some juice.

Hey Clunk, how many nights do you get out of the battery with the humidifier and heated tube off?

[Yeti's Beast]

Yep, it's 24v, but I found out that manufacturer makes a converter so you can run it of a 12v battery, about $120, so I'll go that way.

Cool, you don’t want to use the inverter. I have one in my camper and my daughter used it to charge her laptop over night and took heaps of charge from my batteries.


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[Clunk]

Hey Clunk thanks for getting back to me.

We have exactly the same machine. I came across all the cpap info this evening in a few threads on a US cpap site. Looks like I'll be doing exactly the same as you, the Resmed converter, a battery and some way to recharge the battery.

Leads me to another question.

I have a lead acid battery as my aux battery and it is hooked up to a Redarc SBI12 isolator. How could I hook the cpap battery, up to get recharged, can use that SBI12 some way????

Don't think the SBI12 would do the job, unless you disconnected the 2nd battery first


Hey Clunk, how many nights do you get out of the battery with the humidifier and heated tube off?

Easily a couple of days on the 35Ah battery... But to be honest I haven't actually seen how far it can go without being charged.

[Avo]

Not sure what the med equipment is but I run my CPAP machine off a 35AH Aldi battery quite happily. Charge it up for a few hours via solarYeah bit no one cares if you stop breathing

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[Avo]

Don't think the SBI12 would do the job, unless you disconnected the 2nd battery first



Easily a couple of days on the 35Ah battery... But to be honest I haven't actually seen how far it can go without being charged.I feel a pack of winnie blues and some tests are needed

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[10G]

So I did some more reading on this.

Ideally I'm wanting to be able to recover my battery from the load it supplied the night before, so I'd like to be able to recharge within 4-6 hours of driving the following day.

It seems the cpap machines use about 4 amps per hour, so during 8 hrs of use it would chew up 32 amps. Combine that with my fridge which at it's hardest uses 2 amps per hour, so over 8 hours it chews up 16 amps, I have a few lights but I'm not going to worry about them.

So I have 32 + 16 = 48 amps. If I can recharge at 10 amps per hour that will take me 4.8 hours to recharge which fits in my window. Is 10 amps per hour a realistic figure???

If I have a 100AH battery, that 48 amps will discharge my battery to almost the 50% level which is OK for AGMs, (but cutting it pretty fine) and not a problem for lithium.

Does that all sound correct or have I missed, overlooked or not known about something?

[PeeBee]

50% depth of discharge is a heavy burden on any battery. Recharge of it will not be a problem until it reaches an internal resistance due to the constant flogging, and then becomes harder/takes longer to charge. This is my point from the first post. The alternator will easily recharge the battery in your time frame, but dragging it down so far will lessen its life, unless you go to a battery like the lithium perhaps, but I don't really know much about them to be honest regards DOD life span etc. I try to work on 15% DOD max for my set-up, and I get close to 10 yrs out of my deep cycles on that basis. It requires multiple batteries and extra weight, but financially I am in front. Food for thought.

[Yeti's Beast]

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/08/7.png


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[Yeti's Beast]

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/08/8.png


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[the evil twin]

snip...

So I have 32 + 16 = 48 amps. If I can recharge at 10 amps per hour that will take me 4.8 hours to recharge which fits in my window. Is 10 amps per hour a realistic figure???

If I have a 100AH battery, that 48 amps will discharge my battery to almost the 50% level which is OK for AGMs, (but cutting it pretty fine) and not a problem for lithium.

Does that all sound correct or have I missed, overlooked or not known about something?

Sort of... and depending on tech so below is kinda specific to AGM and constant voltage charger

AGM Batteries have what is called a 'charge acceptance rate' (CAR).

When using constant voltage charging (as opposed to constant current which is much more risky)...
The higher the state of charge (SOC) the less charging current a battery will allow.
This means a "10 amp" constant voltage charger won't deliver 10 AH from 50% to 100% and suddenly stop.
Sure it will punch in 10AH when the battery is down and up to about 85-90% but will start to taper off when the CAR drops below the 10AH available
Obviously this means you will need longer than 5ish hours to get back to full SOC.
This isn't a biggee really, it just means you will want a slightly larger capacity to ensure sufficient power.
You will still use the same power but from, say, 90 to 95% capacity as you most likely won't hit 95 to 100% SOC when out bush.

I would add about 15% to any calcs on battery capacities, charge rates etc sooo...
I would suggest 120 AH capacity and 6 hours charging @ 10 amps nominal or 100 AH and go for a higher rated charger.

[10G]

Thanks everyone for the help & advice.

Is it possible to charge a battery via a charger plugged into an inverter within the car?

My thinking is I have a 100AH aux battery and an inverter that runs off that. I could plug my charger into the inverter and charge my cpap battery as I drive.

I know that's a round about way of doing things, but I have 3 weekends before we go away so time is getting very tight to buy stuff and get it fitted in time.

[Yeti's Beast]

Yes I guess that would work also
I once tried to charge my battery using a battery charger and an inverter that was connected to that battery. It didn’t work lol


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[Hodge]

Yes I guess that would work also
I once tried to charge my battery using a battery charger and an inverter that was connected to that battery. It didn’t work lol


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[Yeti's Beast]

.http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/08/271.jpg

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I’m serious. Years ago camping on Fraser Island in summer with 4 young kids so hot as and raining.
My fridge battery went flat, the solar panels wouldn’t work so I grabbed my charger and inverter and tried to charge my flat battery
In my mind it was charging itself. Well it didn’t work. The charger wouldn’t switch on


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[10G]

I’m serious. Years ago camping on Fraser Island in summer with 4 young kids so hot as and raining.
My fridge battery went flat, the solar panels wouldn’t work so I grabbed my charger and inverter and tried to charge my flat battery
In my mind it was charging itself. Well it didn’t work. The charger wouldn’t switch on


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Sort of like plugging an extension cord into itself.

So if my NoCo charger says it's max power consumption is 60W, that'd be 60W when plugged into 240V so therefore it's pulling 0.25 amps which doesn't seem like much. So if I have a 300W inverter, that's 300W at 240V so it gives out 1.25amps so should be able to run the charger.

Does that sound correct or have I screwed up my maths???

[the evil twin]

Ignore the math and amps etc... it is simpler than that.

A 300 watt Inverter will supply up to a 300 watt load and you have a 60 watt Charger (load) so all is good.

Check the specs tho as el cheapo Inverter manufacturers will market as 300 Watt but in the fine print it may well say 300 peak and 240 watt continuous.

Still no worries but just pays to be aware.

[10G]

Thanks everyone for the help, I started off thinking I'd have to spend squilions and spend hours fitting new bits n pieces, but I've ended up only needing a small AGM battery, everything else I already have.

Thanks once again.

[Clunk]

Thanks everyone for the help, I started off thinking I'd have to spend squilions and spend hours fitting new bits n pieces, but I've ended up only needing a small AGM battery, everything else I already have.

Thanks once again.So just going run off your inverter then?

[Avo]

So just going run off your inverter then?Nah he hited a mouse n one of them spinny wheels

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[10G]

So just going run off your inverter then?

Yeah that's the theory, however I think the theory has a hole in it. I'm pretty sure what I have in place currently won't have the grunt to recharge my aux battery from the night befores work. So I'll be trying to charge a battery (the 35AH one) off a semi flat (the 100AH one) battery, which I don't think I'll get any joy doing.

So I'm back to looking at a better charge system and a better aux battery.

I may use solar, but I have a 2nd spare, two swags and sometimes some jerries on the roof, so I don't have the space. I can use a solar blanket, but not when I'm driving.

[Clunk]

Yeah bit no one cares if you stop breathing

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Nah he hited a mouse n one of them spinny wheels

Sent from my SM-G930F using TapatalkOhhhhhh you're such a funny twat

[Avo]

Ohhhhhh you're such a funny twatLearnt from the best

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[10G]

I'm back looking at lithium and a new charger as I honestly don't believe I'll be able to recharge a small AGM via an inverter off a 'drained from the night before' wet cell battery. I reckon the wet cell will be too flat and need to be recharged significantly before it will be able to run the inverter and charge the cpap battery. And by the time that happens we'll probably be stopped for the day.

I've worked out my worst case load excluding lighting and it comes to 74AH. That's made up of 2 fridges running for 16 hours and a cpap m/c for 8 hours. We won't always have 2 fridges so when we have 1 it comes down to 54AH which a 100AH lithium should have no trouble with.

I've found a place within the cabin to put a battery and charger. I came across a Victron data sheet in which it lists the expected life of one of their AGM batteries in different temps and heat destroys them. They expect 7-10 years when housed in 20 celsius, then only 4 at 30C then only 2 at 40C so under a bonnet must destroy them pretty quickly.

[Yeti's Beast]

Stop snoring and your problem is solved lol
If your ever near Roweville , pop into MPower and have a chat to them.
I work for them in Qld


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[10G]

Stop snoring and your problem is solved lol
If your ever near Roweville , pop into MPower and have a chat to them.
I work for them in Qld


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Roweville's quite a way away from my home ground. Thanks for all your help mate.

[Cuppa]

Thanks everyone for the help & advice.

Is it possible to charge a battery via a charger plugged into an inverter within the car?

My thinking is I have a 100AH aux battery and an inverter that runs off that. I could plug my charger into the inverter and charge my cpap battery as I drive.

I know that's a round about way of doing things, but I have 3 weekends before we go away so time is getting very tight to buy stuff and get it fitted in time.

Only just seen the thread- we are having very intermittent reception on the road.

I run a CPAP machine, wghich runs natively off 12v (no conversion losses) of AGM batteries - uses only 20 to 25 amp hours per night using minimal humidification & pulse dose rather than heated tube.

Easily recharge each day from either solar or Dc to Dc (or both).

For fast charging Lithium (LiFePo4) is best but still not cheap to set up. Has the advantage of being lighter weight batteries too.

Using an inverter run off the crank battery to run a battery charger to charge an auxillary battery is what everone used to do before Dc to Dc chargers came on the market. I did this successfully for years. One disadvantage is that you have 240v in the car when driving. Potential risk of electrocuting folk trying to cut you out of the car after an accident if the 240v cable becomes damaged. Risk is best minimised by keeping the Inverter to charger cable as short as possible, & maybe having a sticker on the outside f the car warning of live 240v.

[10G]

Only just seen the thread- we are having very intermittent reception on the road.

I run a CPAP machine, wghich runs natively off 12v (no conversion losses) of AGM batteries - uses only 20 to 25 amp hours per night using minimal humidification & pulse dose rather than heated tube.

Easily recharge each day from either solar or Dc to Dc (or both).

For fast charging Lithium (LiFePo4) is best but still not cheap to set up. Has the advantage of being lighter weight batteries too.

Using an inverter run off the crank battery to run a battery charger to charge an auxillary battery is what everone used to do before Dc to Dc chargers came on the market. I did this successfully for years. One disadvantage is that you have 240v in the car when driving. Potential risk of electrocuting folk trying to cut you out of the car after an accident if the 240v cable becomes damaged. Risk is best minimised by keeping the Inverter to charger cable as short as possible, & maybe having a sticker on the outside f the car warning of live 240v.

Hey Cuppa, thanks for chiming in with your knowledge.

Running the inverter off the crank battery, I'd not thought of that, not a bad idea. I think I'll go with a lithium 125AH battery and a BCDC1240D and maybe even a solar blanket, got nowhere for panels on the roof.

[10G]

Well I went to bite the bullet and get a lithium battery etc etc yesterday, got to the checkout and just couldn't do it. Couldn't justify the expense.

I'm going with Cuppa's idea and am running the inverter off the crank battery. I think this will serve me well for a while, it's certainly saving me lots of $$$$'s.