Help? Towing - ball weights and reduce gvm?

[Melandmatt86]

Can anyone help?
I’m only new to this forum and and trying to find out how to interpret this sticker. I would really appreciate some help please, before I go and begin a phone merri-go-round with Nissan head office.

We want to purchase a family caravan and travel Australia. We have had our patrol for 5 years since new and thought we already had half our problem solved with having the car set up. But, I came across this sticker and now it’s thrown a spanner in the works.

We have a manual 3L, so breaker towing of 3200kg. Our plated GVM is 3060kg. Let’s just say the “caravan” will be 2700kg ATM have a loaded ball weight of 270kg (being the suggested 10% ball weight of ATM). The patrols Kerb weight is 2455kg, leaving a Payload of 605kg. (This is not including any extras on our car, people etc) I’m just playing around with basic figures for now.

To me, the sticker reads as:

As my ball weight is (250-300kg), I have to reduce my gvm by 220kg.

605kg less my 220kg is new payload of 385kg.

New payload of 385 less my actual tow ball download of 270kg = 115kg left..

So that 115kg, I have to fill my tanks, fit my family of 4 in the car, and include the few accessories we have in our car at a minimum.

Am I reading this right? 🙋🏼*♀️🤷🏼*♀️

Thanks.

75693

[Cuppa]

No I dont think you are reading it correctly.

I believe you are counting the towball twice when you should only be counting it once. Simply deduct the towball weight from the GVM as the towball weight will be the equivalent of adding that weight to the vehicle/

Thus in your example..... your 605kg payload becomes 605 - 220 = 385Kg. Still difficult to fill the tanks & fit 4 people in though I reckon. Reducing the kerb weight of the vehicle might be a possibility, but a lighter van with less ballweight is probably the best solution.

There are plenty of folk around who would say that towing anything at the plated limits is unwise & that it is safer & preferable to have a vehicle which is heavier than the van.

It is my belief that there is a correlation between a growing number of reported caravan rollovers & the combination of lighter tow vehicles with heavier caravans.

To be honest that sticker seems illogical to me. My understanding is that legal requirements say all of the towball weight of a vehicle is included in the tow vehicle's gross mass. Why then would a 200kg towball weight not be counted ....... and a 250kg towball weight only be counted as 150kg on the gross mass?
If ringing around to ask questions I suggest that asking those who make the rules, your road traffic authority, might be a better bet than the car manufacturer.

[Melandmatt86]

Thanks so much for your reply!
Completely agree with you, if your calculations are correct, you are still not left with a great deal. However, that then completely disregards this sticker? My brother seems to think, I should just reduce by the sticker amount, but then not deduct my towball weight? But if this is the case, I would be deducting 220kg and not allowing for the full 270kg deduction of tow ball weight? So confused 😕

[Clunk]

And don't forget to tske into account the weight of bullbar, winch and roof racks etc if fitted

[Melandmatt86]

Yep, I’ll have to get it weighed for a proper tare weight, but this was just basic plate figures to get my head around it. What do you think it means Clunk?

[Clunk]

Yep, I’ll have to get it weighed for a proper tare weight, but this was just basic plate figures to get my head around it. What do you think it means Clunk?It means that you're going to be able to carry sod all if towing a heavy load [emoji12]........

To be honest with you, I don't fully understand the ins and outs, as I've not yet been in that situation. We still just tent it and only tow a trailer of no more than 750kg when we're going away for more than a few days. So what we carry and tow falls under the GVM & GCM

[Melandmatt86]

Oh yes, the gvm falls under a whole other category haha, luckily the patrol has a fairly decent gcm, which is great to have for a family sized van we can’t tow.... 🤪 logical huh? Haha

[Cuppa]

I asked the question on another forum http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1150896#p1150896

To be honest I'm still not clear either but it seems (to me) that perhaps you were correct in the first place. ie. That the GVM is derated by 220kg & then the ball weight has to be included as well. Bummer!.

May need a GVM upgrade (which as I understand it will reduce the max weight you can tow by the increase in the GVM weight as GCM mus remain unchanged) .... so in this example (http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/gvm-products/nissan-patrol-gu-wagon-lwb.aspx) the max weight of van you could tow would be reduced to an ATM of 2765kg IF you loaded the Patrol, with upgraded GVM to it's full extent. Still not a lot to play with but it does offer a bit more choice as to where the allowable weight gets stowed.

[Melandmatt86]

Hi! Thanks for checking it out on another thread. Seems Jeff agrees with me on that forum. Makes me wonder how they can possibly think one can tow a decent sized van!

I’ve asked Lovell’s for an upgrade and they don’t do one for the patrol wagon only the Ute or the bigger engines I think. Plus there’s the new ban on them too?

So based on max figures with 350kg tbd.
Payload 605kg - 350kg tbd = 255kg.
255kg less reduced gvm 290kg means I’m over by 45kg and I have even sat in the drivers seat yet!!

🤔🤔

[Cuppa]

No ban, just closed the 'loophole' whereby some vehicles were able to get an increased GCM by getting a GVM increase.

Looks as though you need a lighter van (or a bigger car)! Lighter shouldn't necessarily mean smaller or weaker, but many manufacturers still need to take this on board which no doubt reduces choices to many. No help to you, but hopefully as van manufacturers come to realise 3 tonne plus vans are not what is needed they'll get smarter about construction methods rather than just taking stonger means heavier approaches.

Can you reduce kerb weight - removal of accessories?

[Melandmatt86]

Yeah I know, all the older vans seems so much lighter. It’s all the gizmos and gadgets etc they include these days.

All we have is a bullbar, snorkel, towball, 2inch lift kit and then your small internals uhf, towpro, so there’s hardly any weight. That kerb isn’t exact we do have to get it weighed properly which hopefully might give us something to play with.

Might have to upgrade the tent instead.

It’s pretty disappointing how misleading the whole tow capacity debarkle is 😔

[GeeYou8]

Pedders have been advertising a weighing service for vehicle & trailer for $75, I was going to book in once I have added tyre racks etc. to the car trailer.

Can you reduce the towball weight below 250kg while keeping the same down force by using weight distribution hitch?

GVM is gross vehicle mass, mass is the amount of matter, not the force down on the towball (which should be measured in pounds, newtons or kiloponds), so I can't see why it would be added twice.

Graham

[BillsGU]

I have been through all this a couple of years ago - and it is complicated. If you want to PM me your phone number I will try to explain it all to you. Very basically 200kg is your "nominal" towball weight and you only need to subtract 200kg from your GVM. If you go above 200kg as well as the actual towball weight you then have an extra weight to subtract for (as was explained to me) a safety margin. All vehicles are different and the manufacturer states this figure.

You can get a GVM upgrade to 3495kg on a Patrol wagon - which for my purposes was plenty. Talk to Paul at Statewide 4X4 on 0394847838. He did my upgrade and I found him to be informative and professional. He even gave me a loan car for the time he had my Patrol.

[the evil twin]

Unfortunately, the best way to interpret how it all works is that almost all Cars and Wagons and most light commercials are designed to Carry OR Tow not Carry AND Tow.

When the various engineers in their all knowing wisdom design the vehicle and caravan they work in the "OR".

The caravan dude says my awesome 3+ ton Van can be towed by almost all larger vehicles (and he is right but the vehicle has to have almost no heavy accessories, long range tanks etc).
The vehicle manuf says my awesome Car will take you, your family and a reasonable amount of gear anywhere but not if you want to tow a gazzillion Kg's.

If you want to Tow 'heavy' and Carry 'heavy' the two are almost mutually exclusive until you enter the world of Single/Dual Cab Light Trucks or F Trucks, Chev, Dodge etc.

There is simply no way around it due to the physics.
Keeping 7 tons or more of mass going where you want and stopping when you need means full chassis, big wheels, big brakes, big suspensions, big low end torque (heavy engine and heavy drive line) which means big heavy vehicles and that means big fuel consumption so big tankage and big ancillaries.

Weight on the rear reduces braking efficiencies and the same weight further back the worse it gets so Towball download is the worst of the worst.
Rear load means you ideally need more weight on the front BUT the rear is where the Payload goes so more payload makes it even worse not better.

GVM upgrades are a bit of a bandaid in that they allow you a slight increase in payload over factory (quite legitimately).
Anything but a slight increase by usually heavier suspensions needs the full gambit of increased braking, handling tests etc, etc,

[BillsGU]

ET is correct about the engineering. That is why the GVM upgrade that I had done came with an engineers certificate that included brake and handling test results.

My only other option was to purchase a "truck" to tow my van. I was looking at an Iveco but I do a lot of 4 wheel driving and the Iveco would be limited to where it would fit. Also the cost of the upgrade was way less than a new truck.

[Dr Gary]

There is family size van built with lightweight materials that are claimed to be strong. I believe the name is "Capricorn" but I am working from memory. Built on the Queensland North coast. It was 20+ ft with all the stuff and under two tonnes. Good luck with your search.

[Dr Gary]

Just found it Bailey Rangefinder Capricorn. At 2000 kg and 27 feet it may be your solution. Check it out--not cheap but may be value.

[NissanGQ4.2]

Pedders have been advertising a weighing service for vehicle & trailer for $75,

WTF I use 2 work at a public weighbridge and could do that for like 10 bucks, although that was about 10 years ago but still can't be 75 bucks worth, I would find a local public weighbridge and stay clear of Peddlers if I was you

[jack]

This may help explain things:

75737

[PeeBee]

Brilliantly clear Jack, thanks

[BillsGU]

WTF I use 2 work at a public weighbridge and could do that for like 10 bucks, although that was about 10 years ago but still can't be 75 bucks worth, I would find a local public weighbridge and stay clear of Peddlers if I was you

Yep - too right. Our local council tip does it for free. There are some tripple weigh bridges around (BP Barnawartha is one that I know of) that measure front axel, rear axel and trailer weight all at once and then calculate the rest for you. They are only around the $35 mark. $75 is a joke.

[Melandmatt86]

FROM NISSAN TODAY...


Good afternoon Melanie,

As discussed, please see below scenario regarding your towing capacity.

Example:

If your tow ball down is 350kgs, you will need to reduce your GVM (3060kg) by 290kgs.

There is no requirement for you to reduce the tow ball download weight from your GVM once your GVM has been reduced.

Please ensure that your present the vehicle to a weigh bridge to ensure that you are compliant with road rules.


Kind Regards





Description: cid:image001.jpg@01D1ED66.48551E40

Fayez

Customer Service Consultant

Customer Experience Department



Nissan Motor Co. (Australia) Pty. Ltd.

Phone: 1800 035 035

CSC@nissan.com.au www.nissan.com.au

[BillsGU]

That makes perfect sense - NOT! That goes against everything I have read and have been told - including common sense.

[the evil twin]

Nah it all works out...

Assume you have a Trailer of 3500 ATM with 10% ball load.
Assume a Patrol loaded to 3060 GVM.
3060 GVM + 3500 Braked Towing capacity means a GCM of 6560
(Under ADR's a vehicle GCM unless otherwise stated by Manuf is the sum of GVM and manuf stated towing capacity)

You decide you want to now tow the Trailer alas your 350 Kg ball weight means GVM now decreases by 290 and GCM therefore becomes 6270 (2770 new GVM + 3500 same ATM).

So you take 290 out of the 'Trol which is now loaded to 2770 and connect up and go to weighbridge.

Your 'new" GCM is 6270 and the weighbridge will show a weight of 6270.
Made up of Patrol 2770, Tow ball load 350, GTM of 3150 or if you prefer Patrol 2770 and 3500 ATM

You have met your new reduced GVM
You are not towing an overloaded Trailer as it is still the same ATM
You have not exceeded Towball weight
Your Rig is not over GCM
You have not exceeded your towing capacity

God is in his heaven and all is right with the world :-)

[MB]

Awesome information Gents thank you truly! Not sure how to explain this all to Mrs MB with her Equine collection habit. To be honest varying run weights mathematics I struggle computing too. Is there any reasonably priced available weight/scale pads on the market to home test before departure? Cheers!



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[PeeBee]

Awesome information Gents thank you truly! Not sure how to explain this all to Mrs MB with her Equine collection habit. To be honest varying run weights mathematics I struggle computing too. Is there any reasonably priced available weight/scale pads on the market to home test before departure? Cheers!



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So MB, you find a reasonably priced scale, Mrs MB loads up the nags and finds them 50kg over - what do you expect her to do - trim some horse off? Drive naked, leave the spare wheel at home? Interesting challenge I think you are setting yourself!!!

[MB]

Touche Ol Chap! Douche to relieve the Crap :-( !


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[MB]

We’re gonna need a bigger boat!
https://youtu.be/2I91DJZKRxs
“All 3.0+T’s of him” :-)


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[BillsGU]

OK - so my Patrol is a bit over the GVM (not towing anything). So I make up a box, remove the towball and bolt the box to the tow eye (the worse possible place to hang excess weight). I then take 350kg of crap out of the Patrol and put it in the box. Magically it now only weighs 290kg. Talk about loaves and fishes. I'm sure the scalies will be amused when they pull me up to weigh me and I tell them that story.

Err - ET. Looking at your calculations - if they pull you up to weigh you and put the scales under the Patrol's wheels only (to measure its GVM) - it will show your "new" GVM plus the download on the towball (2770+350) - which gives a total GVM of 3120 - which is over the limit. And we haven't even discussed maximum rear axel loading.

I'm going to have a LARGE scotch and then go to bed.

[the evil twin]

Err - ET. Looking at your calculations - if they pull you up to weigh you and put the scales under the Patrol's wheels only (to measure its GVM) - it will show your "new" GVM plus the download on the towball (2770+350) - which gives a total GVM of 3120 - which is over the limit. And we haven't even discussed maximum rear axel loading.



Perhaps I have used a bad example s it was an unrated GCM but I thought working with the numbers given would assist... my bad... as when a trailer is connected the rig becomes a combination and has to comply with GCM.

[the evil twin]

Post #19 by Jack is a great way to illustrate some of the measurements and also the following extracts from the web may assist.

The last sentence sums it up the best :-)

Y62 Patrol - Towing the line

At first glance, the Patrol’s towing specs look good: it has a 3500kg maximum towing capacity, of which a maximum 350kg can rest on the towball. The Patrol has a 750kg payload and so when loaded to its 3500kg maximum Gross Vehicle Mass, it’ll still be able to tow its full 3500kg capacity (so Gross Combined Mass is 7000kg).

The downside is the Nissan’s 350kg maximum towball download becomes a 250kg maximum if you have loaded the Patrol to its 3500kg GVM. However, if you reduce payload in the Patrol by 70kg, (so its GVM is now 3430kg) maximum TBM is 300kg; reduce it by 100kg and TBM is 325kg. To use the maximum 350kg TBM, you’ll have to take 130kg out of the Patrol. As if towing weight legalities weren’t complicated enough already.

[jack]

I’ve printed out that sheet, currently loading up the Patrol & Caravan and heading out to the local free weigh bridge. They have a large LED readout, no ticket.
We have one each side of the highway just out of town, Cuppa recently checked them both and they matched so confident of the weight.
I’ve added 50kg extra to the caravan which I can move around to check best load arrangement etc. just need to fill up on fuel as well.
I’ll take pics of the readout and rearrange as required. I’m confident it’s loaded with more than we actually take so it’s a worst case scenario (I hope).

[BillsGU]

Yep - I still cannot understand how if you are already at your maximum GVM of 3500kg, you can then add another 250kg to it. Your vehicle is after all carrying the towball download weight.

This is all too difficult and differs with depending on who you ask or what you read. A couple of years ago we had a fellow from RMS (NSW - was called RTA) at our 4WD Club meeting and we asked him all these questions and he could not give us answers. Neither did he get back to us with answers, as he said he would. Seems to me that they really don't know either.

How is the average mug towing his caravan down the highway supposed to understand and comply with all this crap?

[MB]

These were for sale at my nearest SCA town visit today. http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Hayman-Reese-BALL-WEIGHT-SCALE-HR-4320/SPO3257996 If truly accurate could be cool on a stationary combination except our beasts are unruly stomping pricks :-(


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[MB]

Didn’t read the instructions although I could imagine you’d wanna keep your dolley at minimum 1” under for a failsafe ;-)


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[Cuppa]

I used a mates one of those tow ball scales like that a few days ago. It gave *exactly* the same reading as the old pair of hospital scales I had used a week earlier. I was quite impressed as I hadn't really expected it to give more than an approximate reading.

[MB]

Hay Man & Reese ;-)


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[jack]

Here you go, match the public weigh bridge and an independent towball weight exactly (only $51).

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TOWSAFE-TOW-BALL-WEIGHT-SCALES-CARAVAN-TONGUE-TOWBALL-TRAILER-4WD/271198980435?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[GeeYou8]

I have looked at those towball scales (on special $50 at Parkside) I think the would work well on single axle trailers. But my car trailer is a tandem with slipper springs, so the height of the ball would affect down force on the scale, would be even more affect on unsprung tandem car trailer.
This set up would allow you to set the ball height to the same as what you have.
https://swiftcaravanservices.com.au/measure-caravan-tow-ball-weight/