Wood heater flues...

[mudski]

I went past the local wood heater shop today and asked about flues and the cost etc etc as I bought a second hand Alpine Koziosko wood heater back in Jan to go in the rumpus/ cave under the house. Its getting bloody cold here now so I thought to start looking into what I need, how much I am up for and whether I will just leave it and freeze over winter. Lol. We have a gas ducted heater upstairs in the house, but its old, one of those Vulcan Compact 60 upright heaters and its old, did I mention that, and I need to manually switch the fan off at the wall otherwise it wont turn off. Anyhow, its kinda struggling to heat the house and if I get the wood fire heater up and going, under the house, I can use that to warm up under there and this will work really well to heat upstairs.

So at the shop I give him lengths etc etc and he came back to me with a quote of $1500 just in parts for the flue! Eh! Now he did mumble something about the flue pipe being triple skinned. Maybe this is why it was so expensive? I also need a wall penetration kit, the one they are selling looked the goods, made by Flomet, it comes out of the wall at 90degress and had a inspection cap built into and the base for ease of cleaning. I reckon I needed around 6 metres of flue to go outside.

So do I really need to get this triple skinned stuff? Or can I use single wall 6 inch stainless pipe? If I can, I'm sure I can find this stuff cheap second hand somewhere. Ive got the flue and guard for inside to go ontop of the heater, and the flue cap, but apart from the wall penetration kit, i need to run it up the wall outside about 6metre or so I reckon.

Cheers.

[GQtdauto]

By law if it's exposed it has to be triple skin , the reason is because if the flue is in close proximity to anything , usually walls or ceilings the radiant heat will eventually set fire to anything combustible that's close to it .

[macca]

My brother runs a flue straight up through the house and out the roof. He figures some heat from the flue heats up stairs too. Single flue of course. Ours is double skin? In the roof void and out through

[UncleFrosty]

Not sure about the law side of things (probably varies state-to-state anyway), but if you value your house, don't cut corners with this IMHO. The number of call-outs the firies get this time of year due to bad installs increases dramatically from what I remember...

[Sir Roofy]

Looking at the heater situation here we found that the triple skin pipe is required in the void and out through the roof
to be done by a plummer and signed off by the plummer and for the insurance so as GQTdauto says it by law now

[Stropp]

2 things,

a. its illegal to buy sell or install a secondhand wood heater made prior to 8 aug last yr and if you do and the worst happens you will risk the insurance co knocking back the claim on a technicality.

b. if you do decide to do it i would go triple skin and depending where it goes and if the upper floor is timber try to go directly up as it will draw better and you can get some heat in the room upstairs, you will need a normal triple flue kit, cost here $450, a floor penetration kit $200, extra single skin flue and a mesh for upstairs and a dropbox with a 8" opening to take the mesh, this dropbox would need to be raked to suit the ceiling or flat if its flat, hope that helps. feel free to pm me

[NissanGQ4.2]

2 things,

a. its illegal to buy sell or install a secondhand wood heater made prior to 8 aug last yr

Happen 2 know the reason why? Sounds odd, maybe something made 20 odd years ago but 1 year

[Winnie]

Happen 2 know the reason why? Sounds odd, maybe something made 20 odd years ago but 1 year
Would be something to do with emissions for sure.
Amy's mum is ripping her 20yr old wood heater which is going straight in my shed. Keen as for that.

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[NissanGQ4.2]

Would be something to do with emissions for sure.
Amy's mum is ripping her 20yr old wood heater which is going straight in my shed. Keen as for that.

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Um ma, that's illegal!!!!! *L*

[Maxhead]

Bugger the three skin! Whack a single skin on and modify the flue so you can shut it off like the old turbo 10...lol OK OK maybe not

[mudski]

Maybe I haven't explained how this is properly.
The house is double storey at the front. The heater is to go in the lower rumpus area in the lower part of the house. The flu will go up the wall maybe 6ft and then do a turn and go through the brick wall and outside then do another turn and go up the exterior wall and end above the roof line.
Heres the house. To the left of the pic is the room down the bottom where I want to put the heater.
71812
Heres the room. Its going against the far wall, just to the left of the grey couch. So the flu will go through this brick wall and go up the outside. If you get what I mean...
71813

So the only section of the flu that will be inside the house is the first part from the heater to the section where it goes out through the wall.

[Stropp]

Happen 2 know the reason why? Sounds odd, maybe something made 20 odd years ago but 1 year

Winnie is on it, emissions, as I said up to you if you are willing to take the risk.

[GQtdauto]

Nice size man cave , I will see if I can find the relevant code info but in Victoriastan if it's not built in I'm sure it has to be triple skin , which includes every part of the flue that can be touched right up to the top .

[Stropp]

Maybe I haven't explained how this is properly.
The house is double storey at the front. The heater is to go in the lower rumpus area in the lower part of the house. The flu will go up the wall maybe 6ft and then do a turn and go through the brick wall and outside then do another turn and go up the exterior wall and end above the roof line.
Heres the house. To the left of the pic is the room down the bottom where I want to put the heater.
71812
Heres the room. Its going against the far wall, just to the left of the grey couch. So the flu will go through this brick wall and go up the outside. If you get what I mean...
71813

So the only section of the flu that will be inside the house is the first part from the heater to the section where it goes out through the wall.

Yep understood that, still easier to go straight up if there is nothing in the way upstairs

[Stropp]

Nice size man cave , I will see if I can find the relevant code info but in Victoriastan if it's not built in I'm sure it has to be triple skin , which includes every part of the flue that can be touched right up to the top .

Not correct mate, single skin until you hit a penetration triple through that then single through upstairs room then when you hit the ceiling triples again, if it's outside then when you hit the wall you will need a 45deg drop box and triples from there all the way

[Clunk]

The way I see it, is why do something that's not to code when you're getting pinged for other things that were done by the previous owner that weren't up to code. Makes no sense.

[GQtdauto]

This is the installation of one brand of heater but the details might be relevant including the various codes , interesting to note that individual councils may have stricter rules and more requirements.

[GQtdauto]

Would have helped if I included the link .
http://www.heatworks.com.au/assets/docs/products/BLAZE-500LE-AND-800LE-INSTALLATION-INSTRUCTIONS_1428652751.pdf

[GQtdauto]

Not correct mate, single skin until you hit a penetration triple through that then single through upstairs room then when you hit the ceiling triples again, if it's outside then when you hit the wall you will need a 45deg drop box and triples from there all the way

Must depend a lot on local council rules .

[MB]

mudski mate, I just made $1,500 smackers reading this whilst selling Trol parts in healthy business competition ;-)

[mudski]

The way I see it, is why do something that's not to code when you're getting pinged for other things that were done by the previous owner that weren't up to code. Makes no sense.
Tis why I'm asking. I am was not aware of such çode and was thinking if the shop I went to was just trying to take me for a ride or not. Now that I am aware I will research more. I want to do this right. Even if it means leaving if for this winter and doing it prior to next winter.

mudski mate, I just made $1,500 smackers reading this whilst selling Trol parts in healthy business competition ;-)
Sorry, I've had a little too much Cab Sav tonight and don't quite follow....

[GQtdauto]

Here's a place selling ground floor flue kits .
https://www.myfireplaceaustralia.com.au/catalog.aspx?Type=Stoves&Cat=FK
Single skin flues are for inside brick chimneys , when I built my place we were going to do a stone fireplace so heater was installed with double skin up to just below ceiling height from there to cowl it's actually four layers .
When we had the place signed off the council inspector wanted the mesh covering up to ceiling height but as he was in hurry let me have it done asap .
The council can require you to go over and above the code but the code is the minimum standard .
In our case we have a strammit ceiling so ours might have been more complicated I'm not sure , if we had a plumber on this forum he could advise you either way but remember different councils different rules .

[nissannewby]

Stropp sells this stuff for a quid so should have a fairly good idea.

[GQtdauto]

Not sure like I said if we have different regs over here in vic compared to WA but from all the installation guides I've read the triple skin is mentioned unless inside a brick chimney , and all say subject to local council requirements .
Mudski , go to another shop in your area and ask the same question see if you get the same answer .

[mudski]

Yep understood that, still easier to go straight up if there is nothing in the way upstairs
You reckon? going through the floor above, then the ceiling above that, then the roof vs making hole in the brick wall and running the flue through this hole and then just straight up outside?

Not correct mate, single skin until you hit a penetration triple through that then single through upstairs room then when you hit the ceiling triples again, if it's outside then when you hit the wall you will need a 45deg drop box and triples from there all the way
So if its outside the wall I need to use triple skin. Inside single skin? Am I reading this right?

[mudski]

Not sure like I said if we have different regs over here in vic compared to WA but from all the installation guides I've read the triple skin is mentioned unless inside a brick chimney , and all say subject to local council requirements .
Mudski , go to another shop in your area and ask the same question see if you get the same answer .

Yeah I will have to go to another shop and find out more. I'm thinking I will leave it for this winter and just rug up? If I have to use triple skinned flue, we don't have the coin for this right now.

[GQtdauto]

Neither did we that's why it's still double , but if I ever sell will have to add the mesh type third skin .

[Turtle_au]

The more bends you put in it the harder to clean.

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[GQtdauto]

The more bends you put in it the harder to clean.

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One thing we can all agree on Turtle , there are plenty that do go through the wall then up but I have to wonder about cleaning the flue .

[MB]

Morning Mr Mark, just meant to save up and use a registered installer to meet Nillumbik's requirements here. AB's carpenter said the same to him and refused to install his one. Going by the VBA link here says it needs to be a registered and or licenced mechanical services installer to AS/NZS 2918 http://www.vba.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/22447/7.01-Mechanical-Services-Solid-Fuel-Heaters.pdf
Like the team here have mentioned, insurance will not cover if the worst were to happen as you won't have a certificate on file, take care mate :-)

[mudski]

Morning Mr Mark, just meant to save up and use a registered installer to meet Nillumbik's requirements here. AB's carpenter said the same to him and refused to install his one. Going by the VBA link here says it needs to be a registered and or licenced mechanical services installer to AS/NZS 2918 http://www.vba.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/22447/7.01-Mechanical-Services-Solid-Fuel-Heaters.pdf
Like the team here have mentioned, insurance will not cover if the worst were to happen as you won't have a certificate on file, take care mate :-)

Ok this clears things up alot. Thanks. Looks like we wont be installing the heater in this winter. Atleast I know now. The guy at the shop probably should have mentioned this to me when I said to him what i was doing.

[Hodge]

I know nothing about fire heaters or flues .
But this winter I have already attended to houses gutted by fires caused by fire heaters .
If fitting one Marko get it done properly. There's a lot at stake if things go pear shaped.

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[Turtle_au]

My fire (installed by previous owner) is in middle of house, flue runs straight up to about 5 ft above roof. To clean I just remove top cap and plate inside heater then run brush straight down into heater (no mess).
The flue is double skin for full length with collars providing extra skin at floor/ceiling penetrations and a perforated decorative screen providing protection in exposed areas. Cat sleeps in front of heater, dog sleeps around flue on upper level.

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[mudski]

I know nothing about fire heaters or flues .
But this winter I have already attended to houses gutted by fires caused by fire heaters .
If fitting one Marko get it done properly. There's a lot at stake if things go pear shaped.

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Wont be getting it done this year Eric now. Unless the money tree in the back yard decides to bloom. Lol.
I'd rather freeze than risk my families safety.

[Stropp]

Must depend a lot on local council rules .

there are federal rules that govern wood heater installations and there are clearances from gyproc oe combustible walls but not for brick, any clearance is for a combustible wall and does not apply if its brick or non combustible, council can only dictate if they allow them but they must be installed to australian standards.

[Winnie]

Wont be getting it done this year Eric now. Unless the money tree in the back yard decides to bloom. Lol.
I'd rather freeze than risk my families safety.
Try get it done in summer, they usually don't have much work on so you might get a better price

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[Turtle_au]

In the mean time put a red light in it. At least it will look warm.

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[mudski]

Our wood heater gets installed tomorrow. Just in time as the heater upstairs barely works and uses a shipload of gas too. I'm hoping this wood heater downstairs will ease the cold upstairs. We wern't gonna do it as its stretching us a bit to pay for the install but it just too bloody cold. Plus I was quoted $1500 just in parts when I thought I was gonna do it myself, the quote for a supply and fit from a certified installer, of the Actual brand we have, Alpine, comes in just over $1800. Happy days. Just need to get some wood now.

[threedogs]

Yeah I will have to go to another shop and find out more. I'm thinking I will leave it for this winter and just rug up? If I have to use triple skinned flue, we don't have the coin for this right now.

Oh no here's another kid on the way, also put a
chain on the shower door women sheeeesh

[mudski]

Oh no here's another kid on the way, also put a
chain on the shower door women sheeeesh

Nah mate. This gun's been shooting blanks for over ten years. Pew! Pew!

[threedogs]

knots do come undone lets hope its not a slip knot eh

[mudski]

No knots in me bud ;)

[Cuppa]

A couple of comments:

1. Stropp knows his stuff. I consulted him when first thinking about getting a wood heater.

2. IMO triple skin flue is a good idea (as well as being a safety requirement for many installations). My experience at our last house was that a single skin flue set inside an old chimney allowed the smoke to cool too much by the time it reached the top of the flue. Result was a PIA as I had to get up on the roof, ladder against the chimney, every month or two, to remove the flue top cowl & clean out all the build up of creosote where it had accumulated right at the top, mainly because it had cooled down too much I think. I think triple skin helps to prevent this.

3. Paying someone qualified means you should get a compliance certificate for the installation. Without this you could be in a sticky situation should you ever have a fire & need to make an insurance claim. You can check online to ensure that the installer has the required 'ticket', & should confirm that you'll get a compliance certificate before committing to an installer. Beware of the cowboys!

4. Wood heaters are great. Much nicer heat than a gas heater. However don't expect fuel costs to be cheaper if you are buying in your firewood!
You need a decent chainsaw & a trailer & time to collect the wood, plus a means of splitting the wood - I recently split half a dozen trailer loads of wood with a hand splitter. Bloody hard yakka, but if you don't put a price on your time the cost is only a bit of fuel for the saw & car.

Wood has quite a warming effect. It warms you when cutting it, when loading it into the trailer, when unloading it from the trailer, when splitting it, when stacking it & finally when burning it! A decent hydraulic log splitter makes the job quicker & easier, but they are not cheap, & it's still a lot of work. And don't forget that the wood you cut this year will be next year's fuel. And be choosy about what you cut if you can as crap firewood takes just as much effort as good firewood.

[Sir Roofy]

Your right there mate on every thing except the splitting log splitter is the way to go
we bought one last year best bit of gear that we have that we have and makes the
work so much easier

[mudski]

So it got installed today. Absolutely wrapped to say the least. The underhouse room it is in is always cold. Really cold. Within half an hour of having it on the room is so warm. The installer suggested a really good idea to us. You know those rectangle floor vents you use for ducted heating through the floor. Well, since the three main bedrooms are directly above where the wood heater is , he said to put a vent in the floor of each room so the heat can rise up and through the floor. Brilliant idea!
But the kids can now enjoy down stair without freezing....
7210872109
As for the wood. I bought a cube of wood today just to get us started. The installer had a little device which measures the moisture content of the wood and the wood I got was fairly new and quite moist. I was a mixed lot, so redgum, sugargum and all the others they said was in it, lol. But breifly speaking with AB I think we need to make a day up the bush and go get a load or two. Make it morning of it. I have a nice new splitter, it works really well. And I like splitting the wood. For now.

[jay see]

Well there's one to tick off
🔥☑

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[mudski]

Well there's one to tick off
🔥☑

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Yeah for sure John. I actually had a drink tonight in celebration. Haha! May not be much for some but getting this done has really made me happy.

[Stropp]

Well he has done a good job mate, just like I would have if I had been over there.

[lucus30]

Nice mate looks awesome

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[jay see]

Yeah for sure John. I actually had a drink tonight in celebration. Haha! May not be much for some but getting this done has really made me happy.
And warm...

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[MB]

Top job Mr Mark!
Now get your trailer over here and start clearing our old fence lines, I mean collecting some family wood to warm :-)

[mudski]

Thanks guys. Its amazing how this heater where it is can help the rest of the house stay warmer. It was 7degrees outside this morning and usually we'd wake up and run to turn the ducted heating on, which doesn't work real well being 30 years old. But this morning I got up, yeah it was cold, but only a little, I went down stairs where its usually an ice box on these mornings and it was luke warm in there. And I had left a window wide open too!


Top job Mr Mark!
Now get your trailer over here and start clearing our old fence lines, I mean collecting some family wood to warm :-)
Mate! Just say the word and I will be there! I bought a cube of mixed timbers yesterday and I can see this going rather quick. Plus I need to speak with your lovely wife about my daughter and her insane horse obsession. She wont shut up about it.

Next is to do the wall for my cellar/ cave and then insulate the underfloor or ceiling depending on which way you look at it, and get some gyprock sheets up. Then do the walls.

[mudski]

Its probably not news to most but to me its informative. I found a list of Australian fire wood species and there combustible properties...
72112

[gubigfish]

You're missing the best one Jarrah

[UncleFrosty]

+1 gubigfish
What they're missing on that table is a column for ash production. Jarrah burns away to almost nothing. Makes the maintenance burden a little less...

[Winnie]

Its probably not news to most but to me its informative. I found a list of Australian fire wood species and there combustible properties...
72112

I just burn whatever I can get my hands on, a lot of it is messmate and red stringybark.
The bloke we bought our house from though left a couple of metres of redgum behind which I am still burning but nearly out of it. If you burn your heater 24/7 you will go through a LOT of firewood. I reckon I'll need about 6 or 7 8x5 tandem trailer loads a year. Best time to get it is in Spring so it has a good 9 months to dry out over summer.

[Cuppa]

Thanks for that firewood species list.

We used to burn a fair bit of Blackwood, had a lot of mature standing trees killed by radiant heat during the Black Saturday fires but not burned on our property. We also had shiploads of Cypress which was great for kindling, but that was all. Burns very hot & wrecks grates, as well as being the worst for depositing creosote in the flue. Local to where we lived Yellowbox & Mountain ash was the most common in the surrounding bush.

[mudski]

I just burn whatever I can get my hands on, a lot of it is messmate and red stringybark.
The bloke we bought our house from though left a couple of metres of redgum behind which I am still burning but nearly out of it. If you burn your heater 24/7 you will go through a LOT of firewood. I reckon I'll need about 6 or 7 8x5 tandem trailer loads a year. Best time to get it is in Spring so it has a good 9 months to dry out over summer.
Yeah I think this winter will be to just grab whatever I can. I bought one of those moisture test thingo's from Bunnings today. As the installer had one and showed me that the wood I had bought was way to wet to burn. He was right. So I had to buy bags of dry redgum to get me going and I just stacked the dryer pieces from the load I bought next to the fire to help dry them out.
This little tool it great as it can actually measure the moisture content of concrete and bricks too.

Thanks for that firewood species list.

We used to burn a fair bit of Blackwood, had a lot of mature standing trees killed by radiant heat during the Black Saturday fires but not burned on our property. We also had shiploads of Cypress which was great for kindling, but that was all. Burns very hot & wrecks grates, as well as being the worst for depositing creosote in the flue. Local to where we lived Yellowbox & Mountain ash was the most common in the surrounding bush.
While there is the choice timbers to burn, the installer said, hey if its wood, don't chuck it, burn it. He looked at the two massive pines we have that I am planning on lopping and I was going to get rid of the wood as I thought its crap for burning. The guy said to keep it and just mix it in with the better timbers. Its free wood and it will make your stock last longer.

So I guess collecting firewood is kinda like me having a wine collection. The older the stock is the better it is.

[Winnie]

Pretty much, it can get too old and rot though.
I'm the same as you, I didn't buy my chainsaw and trailer until well into autumn so am not burning great wood at the moment, next year we will be more prepared.

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[firm351]

Keep the pine for sure mate. I cut down 3 22 meter tall radiata pine trees last year at my place. It makes the best starting wood i reckon and good for getting a dead fire roaring again quickly. Mix it with my jarrah and its good as gold. Shame you dont have jarrah over there, i reckons you cant beat it for firewood, easy to split and burns really good with no ash.

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