The problem with modern diesels

[Cuppa]

An interesting article which explains why my TD is so much better than your ZD! :harhar:

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-tech-torque/aadiesel-future-under-a-cloud-november-2016

[dom14]

An interesting article which explains why my TD is so much better than your ZD! :harhar:

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-tech-torque/aadiesel-future-under-a-cloud-november-2016

Interesting article(just scanned it). Some of the earlier ZD30's were plagued with trouble(so I've heard).
I'm wondering if that's still the case.
http://www.chaz.yellowfoot.org/zd30_engine_problems.htm

[macca]

An interesting article which explains why my TD is so much better than your ZD! :harhar:

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-tech-torque/aadiesel-future-under-a-cloud-november-2016

Fair go Cuppa you know how to shatter a blokes dreams.

[mudnut]

They've turned workhorses into thoroughbreds. It cost my cousin a small fortune, to repair his brand new Patrol after fuel contamination in W.A.

[Softy]

An interesting article which explains why my TD is so much better than your ZD! :harhar:

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-tech-torque/aadiesel-future-under-a-cloud-november-2016

That is a bit one sided..

Where are the pics of the Kettle TD42's and the ones with rods sticking out of the big holes punched in the blocks from snapped cranks? ;)

[Touses]

That is a bit one sided..

Where are the pics of the Kettle TD42's and the ones with rods sticking out of the big holes punched in the blocks from snapped cranks? ;)

Check Ab I think he has a few piccies of the latter? LOL

[Softy]

Check Ab I think he has a few piccies of the latter? LOL

He isn't alone.....

Stupid tractor motors.

[Cuppa]

Just a bit of banter to get you to read the article lads. :) I don’t wish mechanical calamity on anyone & I believe in karma so if I were being truly nasty I’d probably have a rod out through the bottom of my dinosaur next week. (No reflection on the inner goodness of our illustrious leader & pizza maker extraordinaire intended) :D

[Maxhead]

An interesting article which explains why my TD is so much better than your ZD! :harhar:

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-tech-torque/aadiesel-future-under-a-cloud-november-2016

Uppercut coming your way soon matey :)

EDIT: I'll swap ya if you want...bwahahah

[Maxhead]

Pretty cool read actually Cuppa, thanks

[Plasnart]

Wow, excellent article. Technology really is cracking on and i agree the end of diesel and even petrol motors could be on the horizon. That extended range EV concept with gas turbine is very very interesting.

[nissannewby]

This is like a full circle. Diesels were considered the same 40 years ago- Expensive lol. The problem I see with modern diesels is the people who make them which ultimately are driven by the consumer. Modern diesels are expected to have good performance while still being affordable to buy. Which do you want? A reliable diesel with performance will be expensive, A cheap diesel that is reliable wont have performance.

[Cuppa]

This is like a full circle. Diesels were considered the same 40 years ago- Expensive lol. The problem I see with modern diesels is the people who make them which ultimately are driven by the consumer. Modern diesels are expected to have good performance while still being affordable to buy. Which do you want? A reliable diesel with performance will be expensive, A cheap diesel that is reliable wont have performance.

I don’t disagree with you Matt, but it appears (from the article) that the nail in the coffin for diesels will not be reliability or performance, but the inability to meet ever tightening emission requirements. It could well be that my strategy of buying an old school diesel for long term ownership & travel was not such a great idea after all. If over the next decade plus we see less & less diesels on the road diesel fuel will become more & more a niche product with a matching increase in price. Not what I want to see, but I also have green beliefs about the need for behaviours to change for the sake of the planet. Difficult world aint it.

[jack]

I don’t wish mechanical calamity on anyone & I believe in karma so if I were being truly nasty I’d probably have a rod out through the bottom of my dinosaur next week.

Never going to happen to your motor Cuppa, you don't put enough K's on it. :wink:

[Cuppa]

Never going to happen to your motor Cuppa, you don't put enough K's on it. :wink:

Yet, Jack, yet! :)

[mudnut]

Don't worry, Cuppa, us petrol heads can send you our used oil, if you want.

[Bush Ranger]

I don’t disagree with you Matt, but it appears (from the article) that the nail in the coffin for diesels will not be reliability or performance, but the inability to meet ever tightening emission requirements. It could well be that my strategy of buying an old school diesel for long term ownership & travel was not such a great idea after all. If over the next decade plus we see less & less diesels on the road diesel fuel will become more & more a niche product with a matching increase in price. Not what I want to see, but I also have green beliefs about the need for behaviours to change for the sake of the planet. Difficult world aint it.

Reminds me of what I have heard about 2 stroke motors. They`re trying to phase them out, because of the pollution they create.

[nissannewby]

I don’t disagree with you Matt, but it appears (from the article) that the nail in the coffin for diesels will not be reliability or performance, but the inability to meet ever tightening emission requirements. It could well be that my strategy of buying an old school diesel for long term ownership & travel was not such a great idea after all. If over the next decade plus we see less & less diesels on the road diesel fuel will become more & more a niche product with a matching increase in price. Not what I want to see, but I also have green beliefs about the need for behaviours to change for the sake of the planet. Difficult world aint it.

I cant see that happening in the next 50 years cuppa. There is still a lot of r&d going into the old diesel buy some major automotive manufacturers. I always fail to see the emissions side of the argument. Sure we can all drive electric cars but they still pollute just as much as a petrol or diesel vehicle. Sure nothing comes out of an exhaust but the materials used in the batteries are horrible for the environment, not to mention the vehicle still drives on tyres and has all the other mechanical components in the drive train. Even solar isnt sustainable at this point.

[MB]

Something for us all to strive for:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
Just might need a whisker of diesel and or Aerostart to get science rocking along:-)

[dom14]

Reminds me of what I have heard about 2 stroke motors. They`re trying to phase them out, because of the pollution they create.

That would be bad news for some of the motor mowers, whipper snippers, chain saws, etc. ;)

[dom14]

I cant see that happening in the next 50 years cuppa. There is still a lot of r&d going into the old diesel buy some major automotive manufacturers. I always fail to see the emissions side of the argument. Sure we can all drive electric cars but they still pollute just as much as a petrol or diesel vehicle. Sure nothing comes out of an exhaust but the materials used in the batteries are horrible for the environment, not to mention the vehicle still drives on tyres and has all the other mechanical components in the drive train. Even solar isnt sustainable at this point.

Interesting line of thought. So, what is the solution for a greener transport?!!

[dom14]

Something for us all to strive for:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
Just might need a whisker of diesel and or Aerostart to get science rocking along:-)

It ain't gonna happen, but nothing wrong with trying though. :D
With some luck, we may be able to tap into "Quantum vacuum energy"

[dom14]

That extended range EV concept with gas turbine is very very interesting.

Have they built any prototypes of that sort?!!

[mudnut]

Gas turbines have been around for a long time. I was told that they were suppressed decades ago because they can run on different fuels.

[nissannewby]

Interesting line of thought. So, what is the solution for a greener transport?!!

Walking.....

[MB]

Maybe for another thread thingo you can build Mr Dom :-)!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
Haha (No politics sworn by all) :-)

[dom14]

Walking.....

I do a fair bit of cycling. Quicker and greener both at the same time(I think).
Rubber tyres are still made out of petroleum derivatives though. :)
We better find greener transport technologies though. I think some improvements like electric cars, solar electric cars, etc etc are
better than doing nothing.

[Plasnart]

Interesting line of thought. So, what is the solution for a greener transport?!!

Improved battery technology which is in full swing. Lot of way to go yet but they're getting smaller and more powerful every year. I believe batteries will power most vehicles in the future charged by either solar or small power plant like that EV gas turbine in Cuppa's original post.

The E-racing cars and E-moto are getting better and better and shifting from experimental to mainstream focus.

Just think we went from this:

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/11/33.jpg

To this in around 100 years:

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/11/34.jpg


Similar advancement in vehicles. Another 50 years and what we know now will be crazily outdated and old fashioned.

[nissannewby]

Sustainability is the key. This will be the hardest thing to get right. Hopefully technology advances in way which will aid this. It will be a tough ask.

[dom14]

Maybe for another thread thingo you can build Mr Dom :-)!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
Haha (No politics sworn by all) :-)

Yeah, I know that thing. They crushed all of those units without allowing anybody to buy them.
Another interesting fact is that electric cars are actually older than gasoline cars.
Only new thing is hydrogen fuel cars, which also isn't that new.

If we can find a way to pump out hydrogen from our sun, we can forget about environmental issues of energy use for the time being. :D
(which also means large amounts of hydrogen burning will eventually produce it's own problems).

[dom14]

Sustainability is the key. This will be the hardest thing to get right. Hopefully technology advances in way which will aid this. It will be a tough ask.

It is a tough ask I believe, 'cos we're not ready to give up the "comforts" of modern life.

[mudnut]

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-are-gas-turbine-engines-not-used-in-automobiles.712881/

They discuss why turbines are more efficient at higher speeds so don't really suit autos but using the turbine to run an alternator is very doable.

[Plasnart]

It is a tough ask I believe, 'cos we're not ready to give up the "comforts" of modern life.

Don't worry Dom, the last thing Gen Y will relinquish are the comforts of modern life. All will be good.

[MB]

Repost, different link than before Mr Plassy?
UPDATE;-)
(Apologies Ford didn't get contracted:-) )
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/oct/1003-zh2.html
Water for troops out the 'Tail-Pipe' ;-)

[dom14]

Just think we went from this:

To this in around 100 years:

Similar advancement in vehicles. Another 50 years and what we know now will be crazily outdated and old fashioned.

I believe it took less than fifty years. Probably the commercial air crafts that look like modern jet turbine engine driven ones took few more years, but the speed it advanced was on par with personal computer technology.

[dom14]

Repost, different link than before Mr Plassy?
UPDATE;-)
(Apologies Ford didn't get contracted:-) )
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/oct/1003-zh2.html
Water for troops out the 'Tail-Pipe' ;-)

This is what we should be driving right now, if we started doing work on alternative fuel cars during the hippy era. :)

[mudnut]

Interesting read. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/11/the-truth-about-why-chrysler-destroyed-the-turbine-cars/

[AGman]

What is the legal issue with catch cans? I wouldn't of thought they would be an emission issue?

[MB]

..............

[AB]

What is the legal issue with catch cans? I wouldn't of thought they would be an emission issue? You're still venting but just catching the build of liquid that's all.

[MB]

..........

[dom14]

What is the legal issue with catch cans? I wouldn't of thought they would be an emission issue?

Who said there's legal issue with that?!! You simply collect the blow-by oil. You simply leave the PCV system as it is.

[dom14]

..............

Keyboard isn't obeying your orders?!! ;) :D

[macca]

Who said there's legal issue with that?!! You simply collect the blow-by oil. You simply leave the PCV system as it is.

Another article by Allan Whiting, I didn't read it through this time but there is info there about catch cans for your reading pleasure.

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-powertrain/diesel-fiddles-may-2016?A=SearchResult&SearchID=85848466&ObjectID=7042630&ObjectType=35

[bazzaboy]

Interesting, even though just about every diesel mechanic I've spoken to, read an article from, or have been interviewed, has said that can-cans are a critical piece of gear for all modern diesels fitted with the current pollution controls.
I honestly believe that governments and 4wd manufactures don't care about the longevity or reliability of current diesel vehicles. They just care about ensuring their vehicles meet the ever-changing emissions requirements to be able to continue selling vehicles.

The only way this will end or improve is if falling sales impact the economy.

[macca]

Interesting, even though just about every diesel mechanic I've spoken to, read an article from, or have been interviewed, has said that can-cans are a critical piece of gear for all modern diesels fitted with the current pollution controls.
I honestly believe that governments and 4wd manufactures don't care about the longevity or reliability of current diesel vehicles. They just care about ensuring their vehicles meet the ever-changing emissions requirements to be able to continue selling vehicles.

The only way this will end or improve is if falling sales impact the economy.

You are right on the money I reckon. Gov's hold these companies to ransom to please the green lobby.

What is the carbon foot print to scrap, rebuild or make a replacement vehicle after a short service life. That doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

[Wizard52]

I would not like to be making or selling large caravans in near future as there will be no suitable vehicle to tow them any reasonable distance. Same for off road campers etc.
As electric vehicles take over, petrol and diesel will be more expensive as volumes decrease, especially in the cities.

[BigRAWesty]

Imo were a long way off from diverting to a different fuel sorce..
What I can't understand is why manufacturers aren't looking into combining fuel sorces..
Imagine a td42 turbo with a nitrogen injection?
That'll solve power and emissions problems..
And it's water..............

Personally I think solar is an awesome tech.
We just need to refine the efficiency and reliability..
An electronic 4x4 car would love the aus outback. No shortage of sun light.
But the capacity would be the killer.. 300k a day would make for a slow trek but very relaxing holiday..

[AGman]

Who said there's legal issue with that?!! You simply collect the blow-by oil. You simply leave the PCV system as it is.

"Many 4WD owners are tempted to blank off EGR valves and fit catch cans to trap crankcase oil mist before it can coke up turbos and inlet manifolds, but we’ve covered the illegality and perils of that route in our story: ‘Leave your common rail diesel engine alone’."

[dom14]

Another article by Allan Whiting, I didn't read it through this time but there is info there about catch cans for your reading pleasure.

http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-powertrain/diesel-fiddles-may-2016?A=SearchResult&SearchID=85848466&ObjectID=7042630&ObjectType=35

I think, if you leave the PCV system alone and simply fit a well designed catch can to reduce the amount of oil getting sucked into the intake, that should be ok. The idea is to collect the oil mist without affecting the fine tuned PCV system. I guess with a simple old school 4wd like mine(RB30 carby), catch can isn't a bad idea.

[dom14]

I would not like to be making or selling large caravans in near future as there will be no suitable vehicle to tow them any reasonable distance. Same for off road campers etc.
As electric vehicles take over, petrol and diesel will be more expensive as volumes decrease, especially in the cities.

Electric vehicles wont' take over that quick, unless we develop a good solar panel system to charge the batteries on the fly.
Regardless of heavy pollution & greenhouse effect, heavy diesel vehicles will continue, unless we develop newer technologies quicker. This is something we should've poured lot of money into to develop technologies, some fifty or more years ago.
We knew that we can't keep using fossil fuel forever, even in the early 1900's.

[Maxhead]

There has been some amazing technologies emerge but the oil companies buy the patent and bury it so they can sell more oil. Simple as that :)

[UncleFrosty]

Electric vehicles wont' take over that quick, unless we develop a good solar panel system to charge the batteries on the fly.
One minor problem with this dom14 I suspect is that the sun only spits out about 1kW per square metre (1.3 to upper atmosphere at best) so to power mine, I'd need 70m2 of panels whilst driving. Winnie would need 120m2, maybe more with the new pump!
Batteries are the answer to large m2 solar - but you'd have to be stationary to charge them - meaning all your driving would have to be done at night!
Even then, if you carry 10m2 of panels and charge for 12 hrs that'd only get you 120kWh, enough for an hour or two of gentle night driving - and that's assuming you get 100% conversion from the panels - which I think actual is less than 50%, if memory serves.
Which means liquid fuel is here to stay for a while. Biofuels will have to substitute for remote area driving once earthly sources are drained - or earlier if we work it out...

[UncleFrosty]

There has been some amazing technologies emerge but the oil companies buy the patent and bury it so they can sell more oil. Simple as that :)
Correct Nisshead. The thing Big Oil fears most is innovation... Perhaps that's why the political donations system is in place???😉

[dom14]

There has been some amazing technologies emerge but the oil companies buy the patent and bury it so they can sell more oil. Simple as that :)

Abso-damn-lutely!!!

What governs our life(style), whether it's productive or destructive, IS the economic model(namely the extreme capitalism). In that model, large corporations & billionaires dictate how we live(and how we end), not the "politicians", scientists or philosophers or average Joe hard workers.

[dom14]

Correct Nisshead. The thing Big Oil fears most is innovation... Perhaps that's why the political donations system is in place???��

And that's why they crushed all the EV-1's made by GM, without allowing anybody to keep them. I'm sure there are myriad other "technical" reasons they've had invented to explain that "crime".

[mudnut]

Ohhh. Another political thread:)

These guys are onto something. They could use solar powered manufacturing process to cook the stuff.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/12/23/green-oil-scientists-turn-algae-into-petroleum-in-30-minutes/#7b7442187245

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJq2Hc_mXFI And this old Gem.

[Clunk]

All I know, is my next vehicle will not be a diesel

[Maxhead]

All I know, is my next vehicle will not be a diesel


I can just see Clunk hitting the power-lines in a steam powered GQ...lol

[dom14]

Abso-damn-lutely!!!

What governs our life(style), whether it's productive or destructive, IS the economic model(namely the extreme capitalism). In that model, large corporations & billionaires dictate how we live(and how we end), not the "politicians", scientists or philosophers or average Joe hard workers.

P.S.

I forgot to mentions "artists" above. That is a serious shortage of insight on my part. :D

[dom14]

I can just see Clunk hitting the power-lines in a steam powered GQ...lol

I have an idea to convert my GQ to run on firewood. :D

[dom14]

Ohhh. Another political thread:)

These guys are onto something. They could use solar powered manufacturing process to cook the stuff.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/12/23/green-oil-scientists-turn-algae-into-petroleum-in-30-minutes/#7b7442187245

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJq2Hc_mXFI And this old Gem.

No, no. We're discussing highly technical stuff here. :D
Political discussions are prohibited here. ;)

[mudnut]

Just fit a few washing machine motors and run a pantograph to the power lines.

[dom14]

Ohhh. Another political thread:)

These guys are onto something. They could use solar powered manufacturing process to cook the stuff.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/12/23/green-oil-scientists-turn-algae-into-petroleum-in-30-minutes/#7b7442187245

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJq2Hc_mXFI And this old Gem.

Interesting!!!
I thought back in ancient 1970's they were riding horse carts and bullock carts. ;) :D
Melbourne wasn't that different back then. :D

BTW, bio petroleum won't be a solution, 'cos we still have the emission issue.
Bio petroleum would've been a solution if some fifty years ago petroleum ran out.

[mudnut]

The emissions are absorbed by the growing algae and as the article says, the solids are good as fertiliser.

[dom14]

Just fit a few washing machine motors and run a pantograph to the power lines.

I picked up a running old Simpson washing machine from the side of the road with the idea of turning that into a "free energy electricity generator". The project has never come of the ground. :D

[Maxhead]

I might whack one of these EmDrive engines into the Patrol...

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/nasas-warp-drive-engine-works-and-it-could-take-humans-to-mars-in-weeks/news-story/757094f568430af8139264e60b3a9d2f

[dom14]

The emissions are absorbed by the growing algae and as the article says, the solids are good as fertiliser.

Hmmm... couldn't find article saying that.
To match the equation will be lot harder in the real world, than in a laboratory.
The produced emissions need to be reabsorbed back into algae(or similar method) in all or else the fossil fuel emission problem continues with bio fuel as well.
Countries like Brazil apparently produces their own bio fuel(some 50% of their fuel) using corn, sugarcane, etc.
I'm not sure how energy efficient or "green" it is to clear up the virgin rain forest to grow sugarcane and then turn that to ethanol.
Same challenge will be there to produce bio fuel out of algae.
You need to use energy to produce the heat and pressure to produce bio fuel.
The existing ground petroleum was made by earth's natural process of heat and pressure over millions of years.
We do that in big plants means we have to inject our own energy into it.
And that energy has to come from somewhere.
I'm skeptical, 'cos the math doesn't add up to positive numbers, afaics.
I hope I'm wrong.
The ability to use solids as fertilizer is a good outcome for sure.
The problem is to grow this algae in vast quantities without causing anymore environmental disasters than we already have.
That would be a challenge as well.

I do like the idea of turning our poo into petroleum though.
We just have to make sure poo petroleum doesn't cost more energy to produce it and than the energy it produces.

The original diesel engine in late 1800's were made to run on vegetable oil, peanut oil, etc, 'cos fossil fuel diesel did not exist back then. Bio fuel for internal combustion engine is not a modern concept.
Imagine not having fossil fuel at all and we produce all the diesel, petrol out of bio material as above, which means vast amounts of land turned into vegetable oil growing farms, algae farms, sugarcane, corn, etc farms.

Can that end us with less emissions issues than we have now with fossil fuels?!
Can the fossil fuel triggered industrial revolution be the same with far less emissions had we've done that?!!
That's an important question we need to ask.
Physicists, engineers and environmentalists need to work out the math behind it and come up with a solid answer.

[Clunk]

I can just see Clunk hitting the power-lines in a steam powered GQ...lol
Self propelled on methane mate

[MB]

So that's how you squeeze the GQ slider through them crazy nooks that Stropp pointed out;-)

[Clunk]

So that's how you squeeze the GQ slider through them crazy nooks that Stropp pointed out;-)
With the help of a good slathering of vaseline

[dom14]

Self propelled on methane mate

Not a bad idea. We're opening up all the trapped methane into the atmosphere as we speak anyway, so it might be a good idea
to use as much of it as we can. :)

[dom14]

I might whack one of these EmDrive engines into the Patrol...

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/nasas-warp-drive-engine-works-and-it-could-take-humans-to-mars-in-weeks/news-story/757094f568430af8139264e60b3a9d2f

You might have to stick around another century or so... ;)