Long Range Petrol tank access issue

[dom14]

Hey Guys,

I'm in the process of pulling out the 70 litre long range custom tank in my GQ RB30 Patrol.
Tank was installed quite a long time ago by the looks of it. (twenty years or more I reckon).

I'm pulling it out to diagnose a possible loose power connection to the petrol pump or possible intermittent pump issue.
I discovered it is a real PITA job to remove this custom long range tank as it's a tight fit.
I'm wondering,

1)Does it make sense to make a new pump access point from the floor above for future accesss ?
By the looks of it, the petrol pump is just under the right hand side rear seat.
So, I'll be looking at removing the rear seat, carpet and cutting a hole on the floor and make the proper removable plate to cover the hole.
Is it worth it or is it an overkill?

2)Is the petrol pump the same as the original factory one? Do they simply use the factory petrol pump with the custom made Long rank tank? Do I need to pull the petrol pump out of the tank to find that out?

3)Are there any external pumps from other vehicles that i can adapt for this RB30 Patrol?

Long Range Automotive(LRA) were the people who installed the tank.

Thanx in advance for any advice.

[Bigcol]

with making a new hole in the floor -
are you expecting to take the tank / pump out again or not for another 20 years...........?
have a think
easier access, yes
but
the time to cut a hole, in the right place - correctly
making a cover for it
making it sealed (for fumes and dust and water)
is it really worth all that work................................

with the petrol pump.............
as the GQ's never came factory with an Aux fuel tank, so there wont be an original pump in there
unless
they have taken one from a main tank
or it could be any type of fuel pump - you will have to pull it out to find out what type it is

I would be hoping they used the one out of the original main tank myself............

[dom14]

It's pretty damn hard to pull the tank out. Front bolts took ages to get them out.
Everything's out, but I still can't pull it out in that tight fit.
There has to be a certain way that I need to tilt it to get it out.

If I put a brand new pump I won't have to worry about cutting access holes on the floor.
But, I won't be putting in a brand new pump. It's way too expensive.
If the pump is faulty, I have to see whether it's fixable.
If not, I need to get a used replacement or rather I prefer
an external pump, assuming there's such thing to suit the RB30 carby patrol.

[garett]

if it was me.... i 'd put a new pump in, make sure tank is clean inside, check the wiring and replace if needed. put tank back. ignore for another 10 years. cutting holes is a pain,

[Throbbinhood]

Hey Dom,

Need to get that big fuel filler hose right out of the way, then lower the rear end of the tank first, then slide backwards under the diff. It's a real PITA.

[Yendor]

Looking at your pictures, it looks like it's the plumbing at the rear of the tank that's stopping the tank from coming out or is the rear of the tank sitting hard up against the diff?

The wire harness in your pictures from the fuel pump will more then likely run down to the rear of the vehicle and connect to the original fuel pump wiring harness (where the original fuel tank was) have you checked these connections?

My guess is they used the original fuel pump and sender unit from your original fuel tank. You should be able to pick up an aftermarket fuel pump as a direct replacement.

[dom14]

Looking at your pictures, it looks like it's the plumbing at the rear of the tank that's stopping the tank from coming out or is the rear of the tank sitting hard up against the diff?

The wire harness in your pictures from the fuel pump will more then likely run down to the rear of the vehicle and connect to the original fuel pump wiring harness (where the original fuel tank was) have you checked these connections?

My guess is they used the original fuel pump and sender unit from your original fuel tank. You should be able to pick up an aftermarket fuel pump as a direct replacement.

Thanx mate. It's a pretty tight fit. Tank is only few millimeters from touching the drive shaft. Driveshaft had to come out. Yeah, the wires connect the wire harness at the back of the vehicle under the LPG tank. I did check, but it's pretty hard to make sure whether the connections are dodgy, 'cos they appear to be permanently crimped connectors. 'Cos the problem is intermittent, I thought it's best to rewire the connections from the pump to the front of the vehicle with new wires and a conduit.
An aftermarket fuel pump should be ok I reckon. I checked fleabay yesterday, but couldn't find a one.
I'll try the local spare part shops today.

I like the idea of having an access hole, so I can carry a used pump in case it needs replacement in future. But, cutting a hole is easily said than done.

I'll post the outcome soon.

[dom14]

if it was me.... i 'd put a new pump in, make sure tank is clean inside, check the wiring and replace if needed. put tank back. ignore for another 10 years. cutting holes is a pain,

Yeah, that's true. Cutting a hole is not easy considering the spot. I prefer an external pump, but it doesn't appear to be a solution without some fiddling.

[Throbbinhood]

Given yours is carby, why not run an external pump? Easy to change and you won't have to drop the tank again if it goes kaput.

Whoops, missed your post above mine.

[Winnie]

I have the same tank in the same spot and when the car flexes, the tail shaft slightly touches the tank. Only started doing it on the last trip because the tank must have taken a hit, it has bowed out on the side a bit.
I will have to drop the tail shaft and bash the tank in.

[Throbbinhood]

I have the same tank in the same spot and when the car flexes, the tail shaft slightly touches the tank. Only started doing it on the last trip because the tank must have taken a hit, it has bowed out on the side a bit.
I will have to drop the tail shaft and bash the tank in.

Have you flipped the tail shaft already?

[threedogs]

I had some fuel transfer pumps fail on another 4x4 of mine and the guys at Brown Davis used
aviation fuel pumps, which according to them were better than OE pumps.
They never failed in all the time I owned it. lol

[dom14]

I have the same tank in the same spot and when the car flexes, the tail shaft slightly touches the tank. Only started doing it on the last trip because the tank must have taken a hit, it has bowed out on the side a bit.
I will have to drop the tail shaft and bash the tank in.

Exactly what I meant. Tank is way too close to the driveshaft. Not a good idea IMO.

[Winnie]

Have you flipped the tail shaft already?

Yes I have.

[dom14]

Given yours is carby, why not run an external pump? Easy to change and you won't have to drop the tank again if it goes kaput.

Whoops, missed your post above mine.

Yeah mate, but I have to find a pump that's suitable, pressure wise. I'm not sure I can use any pump.
For example I'm not sure whether I can use an external(or even internal) pump from R31 Skyline or a VL Commodore.
I think EFI pumps are high pressure pumps, probably not suitable for carby RB30.
I most certainly have to fabricate an adapter plate for the top of the tank as well.

[Throbbinhood]

Not sure how your existing pump looks at the moment, I figured it'd just be attached to the sender? Couldn't you reuse the sender itself? As for which pump, I'm not sure, I'm sure LRA or similar would be able to advise you on that.

[BigRAWesty]

So as mentioned that's a typical Lra sub tank..
Your on the right track, drop tail first and then front..
There are 2 bolts on either end..
Imo fit an external pump..
But does yours direct feed the carby or simply transfer to the main tank? Or is yours dual fuel?

[dom14]

So as mentioned that's a typical Lra sub tank..
Your on the right track, drop tail first and then front..
There are 2 bolts on either end..
Imo fit an external pump..
But does yours direct feed the carby or simply transfer to the main tank? Or is yours dual fuel?

Dual fuel. No sub tank. The 68 litre LRA tank showing in the pictures is the only petrol tank.
I reckon they removed the second(sub?) tank that used to be in the rear where the LPG tank is now.

Yeah, I like the idea of the external pump and having a spare in the car all the time(for outback treks).
There're quite a few options on fleabay.
ATM, I'm trying to find the max/min pressure rating and flow rating of the stock pump.
I'm pretty sure the pump in that LRA tank is the stock one.

[dom14]

Not sure how your existing pump looks at the moment, I figured it'd just be attached to the sender? Couldn't you reuse the sender itself? As for which pump, I'm not sure, I'm sure LRA or similar would be able to advise you on that.

The stock sender isn't that accurate. The dial doesn't start moving until half a tank or so.
It could be the dial itself is faulty.
I reckon I find out soon.

[BigRAWesty]

Dual fuel. No sub tank. The 68 litre LRA tank showing in the pictures is the only petrol tank.
I reckon they removed the second(sub?) tank that used to be in the rear where the LPG tank is now.

Yeah, I like the idea of the external pump and having a spare in the car all the time(for outback treks).
There're quite a few options on fleabay.
ATM, I'm trying to find the max/min pressure rating and flow rating of the stock pump.
I'm pretty sure the pump in that LRA tank is the stock one.
Yea so stock rear main becomes a gas tank.
Gq never had a sub tank option in australia. So this is purely an aftermarket fit out.
Imo best option is external..
You just gotta get the old one out..
Bloodyaussie would be the man who knows rates of flow etc

[Throbbinhood]

The stock sender isn't that accurate. The dial doesn't start moving until half a tank or so.


My LRA tank act's as a sub. I wired it into the original gauge with a switch, idea being to switch between the tanks, but it's never been accurate. I just wait until I'm at 1/4 on the main tank and then start the transfer, not that that helps you much. From what I've read, and I could be wrong, the sender works off an ohm reading or resistance or something. Since modifying my wiring (adding the switch), my main tank reads slightly lower than normal. If what I've read is correct, I'm guessing I've added more resistance using the switch and crimps/joins. At a guess, yours may suffer from the same inaccuracy if your wiring has been cut/joined etc. Hope someone that knows a bit more about the fuel gauges in these could advise further as I'm honestly not 100%.

[Yendor]

The stock sender isn't that accurate. The dial doesn't start moving until half a tank or so.
It could be the dial itself is faulty.
I reckon I find out soon.


The RB30 being carby runs a different electric fuel pump to the TB42E. Both pressure and flow rate will be much lower. Hopefully the RB30 guru (no not you Dom lol) mudnut knows what the specs are.

If funds allow I would stick with the internal fuel pump.

You need to get the old unit out first and inspect. There should be a sock on the end of the pick up that may have started to break down and causing blockage or possibly you might have a connection problem inside the tank.

If you do decide to go the external pump root you will need to remove the internal pump and extent the pickup.

Fuel gauge accurately is never true when aftermarket tanks are used. They use the original fuel sender unit and just extended it. This normally causes the first half of the tank to be inaccurate.

[Bigcol]

The stock sender isn't that accurate. The dial doesn't start moving until half a tank or so.
It could be the dial itself is faulty.
I reckon I find out soon.

the sender wont be accurate , as it is the sender from the Main tank (at the rear)

they have used the original pump & sender in your LRA tank, and added to the wiring from the rear

now, under the mats and shyte in the rear, there is an inspection hole / cover where the "normal" pump / sender would be - you can access the wiring from there (as your Gas tank is in the way
cut all the joints out
solder the connections
no more electrical problems there

take tank out - as has been suggested - rear first (after you have dismantled all the plumbing for the fuel, and got it out of the way)
take pump / sender out and check for damage, dirt, etc, also check if there is any electrical fault there
worse case scenario - wreckers for a new OEM pump / sender - IMHO - the best option

if you fit an aftermarket pump - you may have to run another fuel line back to the tank for excess (like the TB42's have) if your RB dont have it already

with your tank, it is similar, but not quite the same as the one that was in my GQ - my hose was on the wheel side, so I could access it if I took the wheel off
67591

[Bigcol]

forgot to add - with my sender, it only registered when it was full.............
once you used about 1/4 of a tank - it stopped working

I, like you
took the tank out, and tried to adjust it

got it to work from 1/4 tank to empty after that.....................
nothing above 1/4 tank though

hahahahahahaha

[dom14]

The RB30 being carby runs a different electric fuel pump to the TB42E. Both pressure and flow rate will be much lower. Hopefully the RB30 guru (no not you Dom lol) mudnut knows what the specs are.

For a mirco second, my ego exploded. Then it got flushed in the next micro second. :D ;)


If funds allow I would stick with the internal fuel pump.

Brand new ones are pretty dear. It's not the price alone. I'm also worried about outback failure of the pump.
No LPG there and if it decides to fail in the middle of nowhere I might end up being stranded.
Having said that, I can always carry an el cheapo external pump with couple of meters of fuel hose & hook it up to a jerry can at the front of the vehicle.

You may be right. I may be overthinking a tad. But, even if I don't get stranded, the factory pump is really a biatch to get to 'cos of the location of the tank. I'm hoping to fix the old one, if it's got too much gunk or an electrical fault.



You need to get the old unit out first and inspect. There should be a sock on the end of the pick up that may have started to break down and causing blockage or possibly you might have a connection problem inside the tank.

If you do decide to go the external pump root you will need to remove the internal pump and extent the pickup.

I'm onto it. I'll post the outcome soon.
Whatever I do, I will do it in a way that I'll never have to lower the tank again.
It's an absolutely PITA job under the car to get to it. I can't imagine myself doing all this work on the side of the road.


Fuel gauge accurately is never true when aftermarket tanks are used. They use the original fuel sender unit and just extended it. This normally causes the first half of the tank to be inaccurate.

Thanx mate. I think I'll leave the fuel gauge. It's not critical atm. I usually rely on trip meter or the gps unit to count the distance and get an idea that way. 'Cos I have a multi-tank lpg setup, but only one LPG gauge for one tank, I always rely on the trip meter to keep on track.

[dom14]

forgot to add - with my sender, it only registered when it was full.............
once you used about 1/4 of a tank - it stopped working

I, like you
took the tank out, and tried to adjust it

got it to work from 1/4 tank to empty after that.....................
nothing above 1/4 tank though

hahahahahahaha

Yeah, same here. I won't bother about the gauge. I've never bothered to look at it anyway.
It's better to keep on track with distance and amount of fuel I pump into it.

[dom14]

My LRA tank act's as a sub. I wired it into the original gauge with a switch, idea being to switch between the tanks, but it's never been accurate. I just wait until I'm at 1/4 on the main tank and then start the transfer, not that that helps you much. From what I've read, and I could be wrong, the sender works off an ohm reading or resistance or something. Since modifying my wiring (adding the switch), my main tank reads slightly lower than normal. If what I've read is correct, I'm guessing I've added more resistance using the switch and crimps/joins. At a guess, yours may suffer from the same inaccuracy if your wiring has been cut/joined etc. Hope someone that knows a bit more about the fuel gauges in these could advise further as I'm honestly not 100%.

Yeah, probably better off to go for an aftermarket solution if the gauge reading is critical.
On long trips, I always keep track on the amount of fuel I put & the distance. I reckon that's bit safer.

[Yendor]

For a mirco second, my ego exploded. Then it got flushed in the next micro second. :D ;)



Brand new ones are pretty dear. It's not the price alone. I'm also worried about outback failure of the pump.
No LPG there and if it decides to fail in the middle of nowhere I might end up being stranded.
Having said that, I can always carry an el cheapo external pump with couple of meters of fuel hose & hook it up to a jerry can at the front of the vehicle.

You may be right. I may be overthinking a tad. But, even if I don't get stranded, the factory pump is really a biatch to get to 'cos of the location of the tank. I'm hoping to fix the old one, if it's got too much gunk or an electrical fault.



I'm onto it. I'll post the outcome soon.
Whatever I do, I will do it in a way that I'll never have to lower the tank again.
It's an absolutely PITA job under the car to get to it. I can't imagine myself doing all this work on the side of the road.



Thanx mate. I think I'll leave the fuel gauge. It's not critical atm. I usually rely on trip meter or the gps unit to count the distance and get an idea that way. 'Cos I have a multi-tank lpg setup, but only one LPG gauge for one tank, I always rely on the trip meter to keep on track.

No worries mate...... There's nothing like a pick me up and then a slap me down LOL

How much are the non genuine replacement pumps?

What trip do you have planned in the outback and when are you going?

Yes we both know you over think things :)

Even if the original pump is stuffed 20 odd years out of it isn't bad.

Does your original fuel gauge in the dash not read at all?

[dom14]

How much are the non genuine replacement pumps?

I haven't been able to locate a one yet. The genuine one on the internet says $800+.
If you know where to locate aftermarket pumps, do let me know.
If I decide to keep the original pump setup, I think it's good idea to keep a spare one.


What trip do you have planned in the outback and when are you going?

Unplanned usually, but mostly around central and north.
I haven't done the Kakadu National Park yet. I'm thinking about going there in about a month, hopefully. :)
I go for half planned treks and end up going to a different location.
The troll is getting old and has been giving me a fair bit or a cry since last year.
I haven't been to Tassie either. So, hoping to go there as well. Too cold there right now I reckon.


Does your original fuel gauge in the dash not read at all?

Yes, that's the only gauge there, and it doesn't start moving until quarter tank or so, and then suddenly moves too much(from memory). I've never bothered to even look at it.

I got the tank and pump out. I'm just editing the pictures.

[dom14]

These are the tank, fuel line and wiring pictures.

[dom14]

These are the pump photos.
I'm hoping you guys can tell me whether this is the stock one! I think it is.
Sender and pump is basically a single unit.

[Bigcol]

Houston, we have a problem...........

you have 4 outlets on your tank
big bugga
one next to it
little airline fitting on outside edge
and small one away from the others
67621

and the 2 on the pump itself


state the obvious first
1 x line is for your fuel to carby

then there should be
1 x fuel return (to stop flooding )
as the pump will pump more fuel than what is required (you will use more fuel at low gears than in top gear, but the pump does not speed up to match what is needed - only 1 speed on the pump)

and
1 x Vapour line - expansion - so the air can escape when your filling up the tank


I will have a think tonight about what the other ones are for

[Bigcol]

that looks like the one out of the main tank...........

so they have used that

[dom14]

I figured out the fuel pump line, return line, breather line and fill line.
But, there's a third line that joins the far end top hole of the tank. Do you know what's that for?
I'm guessing it has something to do with the charcoal canister return line or something?!
Return line is the one at the very top of the tank.
But, it joins a black filter like thing away from the tank.
I wonder what's that filter look like thing is for.,

[Yendor]

I haven't been able to locate a one yet. The genuine one on the internet says $800+.
If you know where to locate aftermarket pumps, do let me know.
If I decide to keep the original pump setup, I think it's good idea to keep a spare one.
Start with the usual aftermarket suppliers and also try Ashdowns-Ingrams.



Unplanned usually, but mostly around central and north.
I haven't done the Kakadu National Park yet. I'm thinking about going there in about a month, hopefully. :)
I go for half planned treks and end up going to a different location.
The troll is getting old and has been giving me a fair bit or a cry since last year.
I haven't been to Tassie either. So, hoping to go there as well. Too cold there right now I reckon.
Sounds great…… I wish I could travel more.



Yes, that's the only gauge there, and it doesn't start moving until quarter tank or so, and then suddenly moves too much(from memory). I've never bothered to even look at it.

I got the tank and pump out. I'm just editing the pictures.

More then likely you won't be able to do anything about that. With the sender out you can check the operation of the float and arm. You will more then likely find that at full upwards travel of the arm the float is only sitting in about quarter of the tank.

Are there any markings (spec) on the old pump?

[Throbbinhood]

When I got my tank, the bung that sits solo at the end of the tank just had a bit of hose with a bolt in it. I thought perhaps an extra breather, but just settled for the top ones connected. If I get time over the weekend I'll climb under it and have a geez.

As for relying on fuel/distance traveled Dom, while I do the same to a degree, I wonder if it would be worth finding an aftermarket sender and gauge to suit. Reason being, when your off road doing sand work for instance, your fuel usage will skyrocket. Not to mention if you have a hole in your tank, the gauge may be an early warning sign.

[dom14]

More then likely you won't be able to do anything about that. With the sender out you can check the operation of the float and arm. You will more then likely find that at full upwards travel of the arm the float is only sitting in about quarter of the tank.

The variable resistor strip is actually dipped in petrol. Apparently petrol doesn't cause the contact of metal tab & resistor any weaker.
But, I reckon it's bound to weaken the contact over time.

Apparently electric sparks is not a concern for having live electricity across petrol?!

I wondered why they haven't designed the electric part of the sender in a sealed compartment without any touch with petrol!
They had no issues doing that with the Oil Pressure Sender.



Are there any markings (spec) on the old pump?

None. I guess I would have to look into the the manuals to find out.
If you come across the specs, pls do post me.

[dom14]

When I got my tank, the bung that sits solo at the end of the tank just had a bit of hose with a bolt in it. I thought perhaps an extra breather, but just settled for the top ones connected. If I get time over the weekend I'll climb under it and have a geez.

As for relying on fuel/distance traveled Dom, while I do the same to a degree, I wonder if it would be worth finding an aftermarket sender and gauge to suit. Reason being, when your off road doing sand work for instance, your fuel usage will skyrocket. Not to mention if you have a hole in your tank, the gauge may be an early warning sign.

Yes, you have a very valid point there mate.
You are right.
Since, I've gone to all the trouble of pulling out the tank and the pump, I should get the gauge sorted as well.
Thanks for the tip. :)
I'm thinking experimenting with the existing sender while the tank is out.
I'm thinking connecting the wires and fill it up with petrol and play with the sender float lever.

[Throbbinhood]

I'm thinking connecting the wires and fill it up with petrol and play with the sender float lever.

Let me know how you go. If you get it sorted, might seek your assistance and do the same haha.

[dom14]

Let me know how you go. If you get it sorted, might seek your assistance and do the same haha.

Yeah, the gauge is important. I wanted to ignore it, 'cos I've been fed up with the fuel pumping issue lately.
Now, all will be sorted out. i'll keep you posted.

[mudnut]

Probably chiming in too late, but there should be a line for the breather, a line for fuel out and a fuel return line as the RB3O has a return solonoid that allows fuel to flow back to the tank under 1400-1500 rpm. I am guessing that there would have to be a way of switching the return from either tank, wouldn't there.

[dom14]

These are the plumbing connections.

[dom14]

Probably chiming in too late, but there should be a line for the breather, a line for fuel out and a fuel return line as the RB3O has a return solonoid that allows fuel to flow back to the tank under 1400-1500 rpm. I am guessing that there would have to be a way of switch the return from either tank, wouldn't there.

Never late mate. Thanx for popping in. :)
I'm going at it slowly as usual. I worked out all the plumbing as above.
I think I should replace all the rubber and flexi plastic fuel hoses that goes from fuel line to the tank.
Old ones are pretty stiff & not so flexible.
BTW, mine's dual fuel. The tank showing in the pictures is the only one.

Just wondering mate,

1)What happens if the fuel return solenoid gets faulty and doesn't open up the valve for the excess fuel to return back to the tank?!
Can it damage the fuel pump or simply overflow from the carby?!

2)BTW, have I been accurate with my assumption that if the fuel bowl in the carby is half full all the time(from sight glass), there in NO pumping weakness from the fuel pump?
(The issue is intermittent failure of the pump or wiring connection weakness somewhere, I think)

3)Do you know the specs of the stock fuel pump(the one in the pictures)?

4)There is NO strainer inside the tank for the pump pickup. Is this a concern?
Should there be a one? I looked inside the tank. It looks pretty clean, and I can't see any strainer floating inside the tank (dislodged from the pump pickup for any reason)
I'm wondering whether some petrol gunk got buildup inside the pump over time due to not having an intank strainer/filter, causing the pump to fail intermittently(mechanical failure rather than electrical).

[mudnut]

Sorry abridged answers only as I hit the wrong button and lost my detailed ones.

1) I am hoping/ assuming the fuel return solenoid is to lengthen the service life of the pump and that failure to operate doesn't cause a major problem. To pump against pressure takes a lot of energy.

2) If the fuel is at the correct level, then the pump is operating properly. It would be good if you could see the level drop, indicating failure. An elcheapo camera from SCA might be the go.

3) I don't know the specs of the pump, but Alitis 007 might.

4) From memory, in any vehicle I have had to inspect the pick up, it usually has a strainer. The manual only shows a picture of the TB or TD pick up which has a strainer.

EDIT: The only failure of the return system I know of was that the solenoid was sticking and dropping the fuel pressure so high revs couldn't be acheived.

[dom14]

Sorry abridged answers only as I hit the wrong button and lost my detailed ones.

1) I am hoping/ assuming the fuel return solenoid is to lengthen the service life of the pump and that failure to operate doesn't cause a major problem. To pump against pressure takes a lot of energy.

2) If the fuel is at the correct level, then the pump is operating properly. It would be good if you could see the level drop, indicating failure. An elcheapo camera from SCA might be the go.

3) I don't know the specs of the pump, but Alitis 007 might.

4) From memory, in any vehicle I have had to inspect the pick up, it usually has a strainer. The manual only shows a picture of the TB or TD pick up which has a strainer.

EDIT: The only failure of the return system I know of was that the solenoid was sticking and dropping the fuel pressure so high revs couldn't be acheived.

The reason I asked the Q2 is 'cos carby isn't going well with petrol atm.(in addition to the pump problem).
Just to rule out any fuel level issues in the carby float chamber, when the engine's stalling(hard to achieve higher revs & short of power), I quickly got out of the vehicle and checked the float level, which showed good. I'm not sure that's a reliable way of testing to see the
carby float level on a driving car. I presumed float level cant be low while I'm driving and kick in that quickly during few seconds I need to get out of the car, open the bonnet and see it. The problem goes away after engine warm up.
It's not a auto choke issue, as i've played with the choke already. I know I'm complicating the issue here by bringing in an
unrelated issue to the main topic of the thread.
I thought the best approach is to rule out all the fuel pumping issues first and then get to the carby.

It runs fine on LPG though.

If I understood you correctly, not having a strainer inside the tank is NOT a good thing. If TBs got it, then RB30s should have it as well.

I would have to find that out beforehand, if I'm to install an intank pump same as the stock one.

[mudnut]

Sounds similar to the second stage sticking while cold.

[dom14]

Sounds similar to the second stage sticking while cold.

Did you mean the secondary throttle valve? It's ok with LPG though.

[Bigcol]

I think Mudnut is referring to the "needle & seat" - that governs the fuel level in your carby

you say you have not done / touched / played with the Carby yet, just trying to eliminate the fuel tank / pump as a source of the problem.............?


I would be putting a carby kit through as soon as you have finished sorting the tank / pump

not ALL Nissans have a filter on the fuel pump - the L24 & L26 did not have, but the L20 & L28 did............... go figure

[dom14]

I think Mudnut is referring to the "needle & seat" - that governs the fuel level in your carby

you say you have not done / touched / played with the Carby yet, just trying to eliminate the fuel tank / pump as a source of the problem.............?


I would be putting a carby kit through as soon as you have finished sorting the tank / pump

not ALL Nissans have a filter on the fuel pump - the L24 & L26 did not have, but the L20 & L28 did............... go figure

Fuel pump/related electrics definitely have a problem. As you might have seen from the pictures, LRA has done a poor job with electrical wiring for the pump & sender near the tank. Probably one of causes of the problem, if not the whole reason.
I am putting the pump through proper diagnostics regardless of that to make sure it's not on it's way.

Carby's been through a kit not that long ago.
Float chamber fuel level is usually good. Originally it was always quarter full, but last year I adjusted it to be half full all the time.
It went ok since then.
Having said that, since I started having fuel pump issues, I started giving the fuel pump power directly from battery, bypassing the
Fuel Pump Control Unit(Fuel Pump Relay).
That caused the carby to flood few times so far.(as soon as I connect the direct power line to the fuel pump).
So, it sounds like carby also developed a problem.
I don't think it's likely the fuel pump to put out excess pressure.
Fuel pump start getting weaker when they are on their way out don't they? They don't develop extra grunt before they die, do they?

[dom14]

Fuel pump internal/external connections.

[mudnut]

Not needle and seat but second stage as it acts differently on gas. The fact that it gets better as it warms up points to that. I had the same problem. i learned how to quickly get the second stage to activate. When it was cold and couldn't get high revs, I pulled over, popped the bonnet and activated the butterfly. The carby would then perform properly while still cold.

But if it flooded, you may have some crud stuck in the needle and seat.

[Bigcol]

Fuel pump/related electrics definitely have a problem. As you might have seen from the pictures, LRA has done a poor job with electrical wiring for the pump & sender near the tank. Probably one of causes of the problem, if not the whole reason.
I am putting the pump through proper diagnostics regardless of that to make sure it's not on it's way.

Carby's been through a kit not that long ago.
Float chamber fuel level is usually good. Originally it was always quarter full, but last year I adjusted it to be half full all the time.
It went ok since then.
Having said that, since I started having fuel pump issues, I started giving the fuel pump power directly from battery, bypassing the
Fuel Pump Control Unit(Fuel Pump Relay).
That caused the carby to flood few times so far.(as soon as I connect the direct power line to the fuel pump).
So, it sounds like carby also developed a problem.
I don't think it's likely the fuel pump to put out excess pressure.
Fuel pump start getting weaker when they are on their way out don't they? They don't develop extra grunt before they die, do they?

I have only ever had 2 electric fuel pumps die on me

both times they just stopped working


your wiring on your fuel pump does not need to be insulated, it is sufficient as it is with the plug & insulated wires

you would need air (or a gap in between the connectors) to make the electrical connections spark and then go B A N G

[mudnut]

Another thought. when you connected the fuel pump to power and it flooded, I wonder if the pressure needed to be reduced by the fuel return solenoid?

[dom14]

Another thought. when you connected the fuel pump to power and it flooded, I wonder if the pressure needed to be reduced by the fuel return solenoid?

Yes, the thought has crossed my mind. But, I followed your RB30 thread to get an idea about the way the fuel return solenoid works.
I guess it kinda possible 'cos fuel return solenoid may come to action bit too late to stop the flooding.

BTW, flooding only occurs if i do the following actions in below order(afaik).
1) I leave the ignition on first
2)I connect the make shift wire to the FPCU wire that goes to the fuel pump(green with red trace).
3) I connect the other end of the make shift wire to the battery positive.

The order of the 2 & 3 won't matter obviously.

If I do the 2 & 3 first and then turn the ignition on, flooding of the carby apparently won't happen. (I can see the petrol still completely
fill the float chamber, but I was still able to start the engine. If I do 1 first and not quick enough to start the engine, the flooding happens way too much and I can't start the engine until I clear the flooded float chamber.

I must admit, I haven't properly checked the function of the fuel return solenoid.(it slipped my mind).
I think it's about time I do that as well.

The thing is whether I high rev or low rev under the bonnet, the float level stays in the middle when I cold start the engine. It only start stalling(and unable to generate enough power) when I start driving.

None of the above problems exist with LPG.

That's why I thought to start with the tank end and rule out all the problems.

I most certainly need to check the fuel return solenoid & carby properly.

[Yendor]

I've had a look in the workshop manuals I have and this is all I can find regarding carby model fuel pump specs.

67651

[dom14]

I've had a look in the workshop manuals I have and this is all I can find regarding carby model fuel pump specs.

67651

Thanx mate. I've been busy running around, I didn't get a chance to carefully look in the manuals.
20KPa translates into approximately 3psi.
As an el cheapo external solution, below is all I need atm.
They are rated 3-6psi.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252333921565?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

If the pressure is enough, they are not bad as a backup.

I prefer to use a strainer for the tank pickup.

Will you be able to suggest something?

[dom14]

I have only ever had 2 electric fuel pumps die on me

both times they just stopped working


your wiring on your fuel pump does not need to be insulated, it is sufficient as it is with the plug & insulated wires

you would need air (or a gap in between the connectors) to make the electrical connections spark and then go B A N G

Yes, I realized that, though when you fill the tank at the servo, bit of air can get into the tank via the fill and breather lines. I reckon most possible time a spark from the intank electrical connection can ignite would be the time you fill the tank at the servo. Once we shut the fuel cap, the limited air inside the tank probably limit how for the ignited fire can go.

I still think petrol submerged electrical components are bad ideas. It's bad for two reasons.
Petrol does NOT conduct electricity afaik. So, petrol getting in between the electrical connectors inside the tank can weaken the electrical conductivity of the metal connections(I think). Or the gunk in petrol(the die) can build up inside the electrical plug. The other reason of course is the electrical spark hazard. I'm sure Nissan engineers thought "long and hard" about the second reason. Otherwise we would've heard of petrol tank explosions from intank fuel pumps like RB30 Patrol fuel pump.
It couldn't have been rocket science for Nissan to extend the wire out and make the electrical connection external. Same could've done with the sender as they did with the oil pressure sender. For a fuel pump they ask $800, I think it's well worth to make them far safer and last longer.

I'm leaning more towards drilling a hole on the old intank pump plate and creat a new pickup line for an external pump. Far less headaches that way I reckon.

I'm only wondering right now whether I should use an intank strainer/filer or not.
Using a one would prevent the pump from failing from petrol gunk buildup over time, but also create the added headache of strainer itself getting blocked over time(since it's intank one, it won't be fun to lower the tank again).
NOT using an intank strainer/filter would kill the pump early, but I would still have the choice of just replacing the pump without having getting into the tank one day to replace the strainer.

Any suggestions for an intank strainer mate?

Thanx

[dom14]

I guess I should be able to adapt one of these fuel pump strainers for my tank.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121024602883?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/172058597862?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121024662192?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

[dom14]

I found this intank pump that claims to suit RB30S(Patrol).

I'm not sure about how it would fit though. Picture they provided is not so helpful or convincing.
Doesn't look anything like the pump I pulled out of the RB30 Patrol.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130982930953?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

[Bigcol]

what about something like this for the fuel strainer.........

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brushcutter-trimmer-whipper-snipper-fuel-line-grommet-and-fuel-filter-/221683320790

not sure about the other one though, RB's are not my thing............

[mudnut]

If it were my choice, I would go for an original pump. Look at how many vehicles have survived them over the last twenty five or so years. I don't like the look of the first strainer as it appears that the material can be sucked to close over the pick up if it becomes blocked over time.

[dom14]

what about something like this for the fuel strainer.........

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brushcutter-trimmer-whipper-snipper-fuel-line-grommet-and-fuel-filter-/221683320790

not sure about the other one though, RB's are not my thing............

Worth a try. May be too small for electric pumping. I won't know until I try.
I'm ordering a one of this and one of the other and trial them first.
Thanx

[dom14]

If it were my choice, I would go for an original pump. Look at how many vehicles have survived them over the last twenty five or so years. I don't like the look of the first strainer as it appears that the material can be sucked to close over the pick up if it becomes blocked over time.

Yeah.
I really like this one. Looks pretty sturdy.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121024647087?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Burson sell the aftermarket pump, but that's the pump only. Same as the ebay link below, for $130 or so.
It comes with a strainer as well, same as in the picture.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130982930953?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p 3984.m1436.l2649&rmvSB=true

I'm heading towards replacing the original pump and at the same time install another pickup for an external pump like this. I can have everything installed, including the external pump as a redundancy.
That way, things can't get any better for a fussy wussy cheap butt like mine. :D ;)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252333921565?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

I think I pretty much have it cleared which direction I'm heading now.
I'll replace the original pump as well as install a redundancy external pump without costing a mortgage. :D

What do you guys think about my plan?

[dom14]

Hey Guys,

I might have to use petrol resistant glue or sealant inside the tank for fitting in strainer & the extra pickup for the redundant pump line.

Can you please recommend something durable and long lasting?

I have epoxy and aviation sealant(Permatex). Permatex aviation sealant says it's gasoline resistant(but not alcohol resistant though). I just have to make sure to avoid ethanol added petrol, which I do anyway.
I'm not too sure about epoxy resistance to petrol over time.

Any advice on that?

Thanx

[dom14]

This is the setup I have in mind now.

Replace the original internal pump with this.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130982930953?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p 3984.m1436.l2649&rmvSB=true

Add a redundancy with these two.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121024647087?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p 3984.m1436.l2649&rmvSB=true
or
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221683320790?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

and

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252333921565?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
or
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-Electric-Fuel-Pump-Low-Pressure-Universal-Copper/162073701753?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3Df0ffd8c399aa4372859 1c2e0550dadfd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26 sd%3D281825358024

[Yendor]

You've been busy.

No need to reinvent the wheel. The fuel sender units work fine just the way they are and are perfectly safe.

Electric fuel pumps need the sock/strainer to prevent crap being drawn in through the motor.



I found this intank pump that claims to suit RB30S(Patrol).

I'm not sure about how it would fit though. Picture they provided is not so helpful or convincing.
Doesn't look anything like the pump I pulled out of the RB30 Patrol.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130982930953?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

This looks like the correct pump to me. Undo the metal clamp on yours that holds the pump to the sender unit and then have another look at the picture.

edit Whoops didn't realise there was another page. Try Nizzbits for the strainer and fuel pump

[Yendor]

Have you had a look inside the tank for the old strainer? Or for a reason why the strainer might not have been fitted?

[dom14]

Have you had a look inside the tank for the old strainer? Or for a reason why the strainer might not have been fitted?

BigCol told for some reason Nissan decide not to fit a strainer to some vehicle with internal tanks.
I'm guessing, it may have something to with reducing the stress on the pump?!!

I'm putting a new strainer anyway. They are cheap enough in fleabay.

I had a look inside the tank. I couldn't find anything inside. BTW, bottom of the tank is pretty clean.
No dregs that I can see. I bet the reason is that there's no strainer and the pump must have been
sucking up all the gunk. Most likely the reason for pump intermittent failure or one of the reasons.

What do you think about my choices with a petrol resistant glue/sealant. ATM, I have epoxy and aviation goo. Both apparently petrol resistant?!

[Yendor]

BigCol told for some reason Nissan decide not to fit a strainer to some vehicle with internal tanks.
I'm guessing, it may have something to with reducing the stress on the pump?!!

I'm putting a new strainer anyway. They are cheap enough in fleabay.

I had a look inside the tank. I couldn't find anything inside. BTW, bottom of the tank is pretty clean.
No dregs that I can see. I bet the reason is that there's no strainer and the pump must have been
sucking up all the gunk. Most likely the reason for pump intermittent failure or one of the reasons.

What do you think about my choices with a petrol resistant glue/sealant. ATM, I have epoxy and aviation goo. Both apparently petrol resistant?!

It should of had a strainer. I'm guessing when that tank was fitted they forgot to refit it or it's fouls on something within the tank (swirl pot??) and they had to leave it off.

You won't need glue with the correct strainer and fuel pump.

[mudnut]

Truthfully, I think by the time you have all of your double redundancy devices in place, you will have twice the joins, wiring seals and equipment to go wrong.

[dom14]

Truthfully, I think by the time you have all of your double redundancy devices in place, you will have twice the joins, wiring seals and equipment to go wrong.

And you are damn right about that. :D
Nobody knows it better than you do. :D
And I ain't kidding.
I've already experienced a fair bit of it myself. Bang Head :D

BTW, I am big believer in sealing the wires from water/dust/air ingress, since I've had this troll.
If you've seen the pictures above, you know the connectors to the tank was not good with all the crud getting in between them.

[dom14]

It should of had a strainer. I'm guessing when that tank was fitted they forgot to refit it or it's fouls on something within the tank (swirl pot??) and they had to leave it off.

You won't need glue with the correct strainer and fuel pump.

Yeah, mate.
It doesn't make sense to me not having a strainer in my tank.
It's highly likely, LRA forgot to fit it. Or it may be hiding inside the tank.
I need to do a better look see inside(which means I haven't done it yet :) )
Judging from there electrical work over twenty years ago, that wouldn't surprise me.
I'm sure LRA is a good business, considering they are still in business, but over twenty years ago, that would've been a different story.
The strainer is for ebay redundancy external pump.
I don't think I would find an exact match via ebay when I'm going cheap on that, hence the reason I'm pretty interested in petrol resistant goo. ;) :D

[Throbbinhood]

I pulled over, popped the bonnet and activated the butterfly. The carby would then perform properly while still cold.


Sorry to hijack. Mudnut, which butterfly are you playing with when you do this, and is it accessible without pulling the air cleaner off? Hasn't happen to me in a over a year - but every now and then on a cold night/snow run I would have this same issue. For me, turning the car off for a few minutes was enough to warm the carb up (the residual heat or something) and get things working again. But your version would be a better solution.

[mudnut]

For fuel efficiency the carby has two stages. One that operates via the position of your foot, and one that is vacuum operated.

The second stage butterfly remains in the closed position and tends to wear a groove in the bore.

I have posted in the helpful hints sticky thread about how I removed the butterfly.

I used a fine wet'n'dry paper to sand the butterfly and carby bore so that it worked properly.

Just take the filter housing off and you will see the linkage you will need to manipulate to free the butterfly. It is easy once you learn where to reach to with the filter housing in place.

Also having the pre-heat system working in the colder months lets the carby heat up loads quicker as well.

[dom14]

filter/valve thing on the charcoal canister line is more of a valve than filter.

[Makka]

For fuel efficiency the carby has two stages. One that operates via the position of your foot, and one that is vacuum operated.

The second stage butterfly remains in the closed position and tends to wear a groove in the bore.

I have posted in the helpful hints sticky thread about how I removed the butterfly.

I used a fine wet'n'dry paper to sand the butterfly and carby bore so that it worked properly.

Just take the filter housing off and you will see the linkage you will need to manipulate to free the butterfly. It is easy once you learn where to reach to with the filter housing in place.

Also having the pre-heat system working in the colder months lets the carby heat up loads quicker as well.

i know all about carb iceing my su used to do it on my mini all the time in winter nothing worse than wot lifting and depress the clutch and the revs head for red line and beyond

[dom14]

Fuel pump internal/external connections.

I've noticed during my dramas withe intank fuel pump that if I try to run it without submerging the pump pickup in petrol it sucks in air and subsequent submerging in petrol won't work(it won't pump petrol) even though I can hear the pump running. The way to overcome that was to stop the pump running and start again(disconnect the power to the pump and reconnect it). This was while having the pump on a bench with a small petrol container to produce the conditions inside the tank.
I'm not certain whether this is a pump fault or not, but I suspect it is, 'cos when the tank run out of petrol the pump does get filled with air through the breather(s) so the same condition can produce the same result. Turning the ignition off and turning on again can mimic the scenario of power disconnect/connect. My overall guess was that the pump was faulty so I wired up a cheaper external pump while still having the internal pump & it's plumbing(sealed but left alone in case I wanna swap over the external pump plumbing lines to the internal pump). I opted to not to purchase a new internal pump 'cos I wasn't sure(still not sure) whether the pump is faulty or not(internal pump is around $150 and I didn't wanna spend that much money without confirming it). External pump setup was super cheap and effective, but I will have to get back to the internal pump issue sometime in the future.

I think the internal pump is indeed faulty in my case 'cos when the vehicle in on LPG(I run it on LPG all the time) the intank petrol pump still runs all the time, and there is no petrol in the petrol tank most of the time. I reckon it's been pumping air(pumping dry) for too long and that might have partially stuffed it up. The wiring by the LPG guy was bad to make it run all the time I reckon.
I have corrected that issue by rewiring so the petrol pump doesn't run anymore while the engine's running on LPG.