GU GVM upgrade

[JoeG]

Hi Folks
I Have a GVM upgrade by Peders to 3.45T and need to go to 3.9T (I'm grosly over weight)
It seems the Leaf spring rear axel allows that (both OME and Peders have kits)
So this means changing from rear coil to leaf spring.
Has any one done this and if so was it sucessfull?
Regards
Joe

[MudRunnerTD]

IMO it would seem far more practical and probably far cheaper to sell your current Ute and buy a Leafy Ex Telstra which will come with a GVM Upgrade, probably only to 3.4t but with the leafs already.

3.9t is getting very heavy! especially for a Ute! what is your load? maybe an Iveco or something would be far better suited to your needs.

[JoeG]

Hi Mudrunner
I've been running 3.9T for 5 years (thinging it was less) however the allowable load is 3.5T . my engineer will sign off on 3.9T with a leaf spring back end
(OME ans Lovels have these off the shelf) hence why I want to do the conversion.
My load is around 700KG but the extra fuel and water for central crossings bring me up another 200KG hence the need for 3.9GVM
a single cab is not suitable as we need a dual cab or at least a extra cab.
we have mucked around with lighter dual cabs and found them wanting and not reliable hence the switch to Nissan Patrol and it has not missed a beat
all we need now is to raise the GVM and be legal
Regards
Joe

[Cuppa]

IMO it would seem far more practical and probably far cheaper to sell your current Ute and buy a Leafy Ex Telstra which will come with a GVM Upgrade, probably only to 3.4t but with the leafs already.

3.9t is getting very heavy! especially for a Ute! what is your load? maybe an Iveco or something would be far better suited to your needs.

All GU leafy utes have a GVM of 3400kg, not just Ex Telstra.
Most GVM upgrades for these only increase GVM to 3700kg, Lovells is 3900kg but is not cheap, especially if a 4.2. (The Lovells kit approval is for 3L Patrols so requires 'engineering approval' for 4.2). All up mine was $5200 in 2013. $1200 was the engineers fees

As for converting a coil ute to a leaf ute - I agree, probably cheaper & less drama to change utes. If doing that it may be worth looking for one with a gvm upgrade already.

[the evil twin]

What cuppa said X 2

IMHO it woud be simpler to get a Leafy Ute and upgrade to a King Cab or drop a wagon chop body on it.

At 4 ton I would be looking at an expedition truck setup myself... those Ivecos are seriously awesome off road for example

[JoeG]

Hi Evil and Cuppa
Yes I looked at the Toyota dual cab befor moding the Patrol
Although the Toyota was a dual cab it needed a chasis streach and then a GVM upgrade so it could have a 2.4m tray and carry 1.1T
The Iveco was not available at the time and is still questionable re service and dealer availability.
So it seems a leaf spring conversion and a happy certifying engineer is the way to go.
Possibly in 10 years time when the Patrol is at end of useful life (only use it for trips) we will look at a 5th wheel unit as mobility for us will also become a major issue by then
Regards
Joe

[BillsGU]

Talk to Paul at Statewide 4X4 (03 9484 7838). They laminate the rear diff housing on coil sprung Patrols to increase the GVM. Not sure how high they can go.

[BigRAWesty]

Talk to Paul at Statewide 4X4 (03 9484 7838). They laminate the rear diff housing on coil sprung Patrols to increase the GVM. Not sure how high they can go.
They did mine as an ex ses vehicle.
3490kg is it..

[BillsGU]

They did mine as an ex ses vehicle.
3490kg is it..

OK. I hear they are developing new kits all he time. Won't hurt to call.

[BillsGU]

It's worrying just how little weight most 4X4s can tow and carry legally. It's even more worrying how difficult it is to understand all the rules and acronyms they use when explaining why such a large vehicle as a Patrol can only tow and carry so little in weight.

There would not be many Patrols out there towing reasonably large vans that are doing it legally.

[mudski]

It's worrying just how little weight most 4X4s can tow and carry legally. It's even more worrying how difficult it is to understand all the rules and acronyms they use when explaining why such a large vehicle as a Patrol can only tow and carry so little in weight.

There would not be many Patrols out there towing reasonably large vans that are doing it legally.

Agreed. I threw mine over the scales last week, empty, and got a bit of a surprise.

[Hodge]

Agreed. I threw mine over the scales last week, empty, and got a bit of a surprise.
Where did you go Mark ? I desperately need a scale to go to.

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[mudski]

BP Western hwy outbound about 5k before the turn off to 4x4 Obsession. Cost $18 from memory.
I think its just after the Caroline Springs overpass. Cant miss it anyhow. It even says weigh bridge on the sign as you enter.
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[Cuppa]

Just out of interest ........... what does 'laminating' a dif involve, & how does allow for a GVM increase? I'm guessing it is a method of strengthening the diff(s) to allow for a greater. axle weight, but given that a GVM increase also involves things like suspension, tyres & brakes I don't get how strengthening just one component could get the GVM increased?

I recall the place who fitted my GVM upgrade telling me they could fit springs to increase weight carrying capacity to whatever was wanted within reason, but it wouldn't increase the GVM. I was shown an older Volvo station wagon which had had all bar the front seats removed & the full back floor area was filled with big batteries. I don't know what the purpose was, nor how many batteries, but at a guess there would have been at least 40 batteries - and a weight of at least a tonne & quite possibly 1.5 tonnes. The car was sitting level, from the outside it would never have been apparent it had that sort of weight in it.

[taslucas]

Here's a photo of a laminated diff cuppa
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/06/102.jpg

>>>tappin from tassie

[BigRAWesty]

Spot on Cuppa. . Laminating is welding strength plates to the diff..
My rear is done under the diff from pumpkin to outter edges..
When I did my gq front I placed it onto to radius arm plates and then some knuckle gussets..
My gu also has the superior tower braces in..
But as mentioned only rated to 3.495T.
I'm wondering if they can't get 3.5T out of a coil wagon..

[BigRAWesty]

This is the kit for the front..
Of course only one side is done due to off set center..
But the rear has the box both sides
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/06/103.jpg

[BillsGU]

The reason the rear diff is laminated on a coil sprung vehicle in order to carry more weight is because the pivot / contact point where the spring connects to the diff housing is a fair distance inboard from the wheel bearing (unlike a leaf sprung car where the bottom of the spring contacts the diff housing closer to the wheel bearing). The laminations strengthen the housing at that point by transfering the down weight along more of the diff rather than the small contact point.

I hope I have used the correct terminology.

[BigRAWesty]

The reason the rear diff is laminated on a coil sprung vehicle in order to carry more weight is because the pivot / contact point where the spring connects to the diff housing is a fair distance inboard from the wheel bearing (unlike a leaf sprung car where the bottom of the spring contacts the diff housing closer to the wheel bearing). The laminations strengthen the housing at that point by transfering the down weight along more of the diff rather than the small contact point.

I hope I have used the correct terminology.
Yep. Totally agree..

[JoeG]

Hi Kallen and Bill
Yes I totaly agree how ever my certifying engineer will only certify the leaf spring axel not the coil as the lamination modification is not a Nissan job so would need to find another engineer to certify before lamination.
Other wise it's find a complete rear leaf spring assembly from the wreckers and then cary out the mod under the engineers supervision to get the upgrade.
He has agreed to this so looks like the way to go as the only other way is 6X4 and as I'm 7.2m long now I definitely don't want that (how ever a GVM of 4.9t and 3 sets of disc brakes makes it atractive)
Regards
Joe

[the evil twin]

Reading your posts and making a few guesses on where you travel... a 6x4 will handle teh tracks like a runny turd in a glad bag.
So, I agree that you definitely don't want that option.

[BigRAWesty]

Hi Kallen and Bill
Yes I totaly agree how ever my certifying engineer will only certify the leaf spring axel not the coil as the lamination modification is not a Nissan job so would need to find another engineer to certify before lamination.
Other wise it's find a complete rear leaf spring assembly from the wreckers and then cary out the mod under the engineers supervision to get the upgrade.
He has agreed to this so looks like the way to go as the only other way is 6X4 and as I'm 7.2m long now I definitely don't want that (how ever a GVM of 4.9t and 3 sets of disc brakes makes it atractive)
Regards
Joe
Maybe drop state wide 4x4 a call (in vic).
They have done mine but it was done from factory.
They do it all in house.
As mentioned though mine is only 3.5T.
Not sure if they do a 3.9T on coils..
My rear coil was about 25mm diameter for the 3.5T..

I think it's worth a call anyway..

[JoeG]

Thanks Evil
Yes I've built my off road tourer and would like it legal.
Nice to see you understand why I don't want to go 6X4 as they are load sharing and would seriously compromise off road use.
Thanks Kallen will call and find out if they can go to 3.9T
I'm happy with the current set up just want it to be legal!
Regards
Joe

[BigRAWesty]

Thanks Evil
Yes I've built my off road tourer and would like it legal.
Nice to see you understand why I don't want to go 6X4 as they are load sharing and would seriously compromise off road use.
Thanks Kallen will call and find out if they can go to 3.9T
I'm happy with the current set up just want it to be legal!
Regards
Joe
That's a battle many of us have lol..

[NissanGQ4.2]

Where did you go Mark ? I desperately need a scale to go to.

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Where ever you go, make sure its a registered public weighbridge like the one mudski used.

[Hodge]

I'll have to get up there. I'm really curious what mine is sitting at.

[NissanGQ4.2]

I'll have to get up there. I'm really curious what mine is sitting at.

Do your front and rear axle weight while your there 2

[NissanGQ4.2]

Agreed. I threw mine over the scales last week, empty, and got a bit of a surprise.

How much over are you compared 2 your rego papers on your Tare weight?

[BigRAWesty]

Hi Folks
I Have a GVM upgrade by Peders to 3.45T and need to go to 3.9T (I'm grosly over weight)
It seems the Leaf spring rear axel allows that (both OME and Peders have kits)
So this means changing from rear coil to leaf spring.
Has any one done this and if so was it sucessfull?
Regards
Joe
Just spotted this on face ache
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/06/169.jpg

[nissannewby]

I hate to spoil the fun but leaf diffs to a coil chassis is a lot of work. The leaf chassis are longer to accomodate the rear spring hanger, so the chassis will need to be extended. You could bring it forward but then the shaft and sub tank will possibly be a problrm

[the evil twin]

Jeez, bringing it forward would be a nightmare I reckon.

Tail shaft isn't a real biggee I s'pose.
I (well, Brunny's) had to do that front and rear when the 4L85e Tranny went in to replace the 5 speed Nissan box on mine.

Bugger dicking around with all the suspension geometry, that would be a prick of thing to get right assuming you still had enough wheel well clearance

[JoeG]

Looks like lots of work
However I've got a 950mm chasis extension so bringing the diff centre forward not an issue also rear tray overhangs chassis by 200mm so may be ok as is
We are off to the centre next week so this project will have to wait till September when we return.
Thanks for all the help and Ideas
Will let you know when it starts and what happens
Bye for now
Joe

[BigRAWesty]

Enjoy the trip mate..
It may be easier to try find a complete chassis and the cut chassis off in front of the springs, then cut yours the same spot and graft it across..
If you have a chassis extension, by grafting across you may be able to move the diff back a few hundred millimeters to get it more central to the weight..

[mudski]

How much over are you compared 2 your rego papers on your Tare weight?
It was under the GVM which is 3000kg. But that wasnt taking into account seven people at 80kegs each and two full tanks of fuel....

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[BigRAWesty]

It was under the GVM which is 3000kg. But that wasnt taking into account seven people at 80kegs each and two full tanks of fuel....

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Mine comes in at 2850kg Wil some recovery gear, half load of fuel and no body in it..

[BillsGU]

I have mine booked in next week at Statewide for an upgrade. I just don't want the problems of being stopped on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere and told I can't go any further. I looked at a number of options and the cheapest and easiest is to upgrade the existing Patrol.

Maybe I should never have gone on the 4WD Club trip to the weigh bridge!!??

[BigRAWesty]

I have mine booked in next week at Statewide for an upgrade. I just don't want the problems of being stopped on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere and told I can't go any further. I looked at a number of options and the cheapest and easiest is to upgrade the existing Patrol.

Maybe I should never have gone on the 4WD Club trip to the weigh bridge!!??
If you don't mind me asking.. how much?

[NissanGQ4.2]

It was under the GVM which is 3000kg. But that wasnt taking into account seven people at 80kegs each and two full tanks of fuel....

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I was referring to the Tare weight of rego papers compared to tare weight of what you car is usually loaded at with out the extra's.



Mine comes in at 2850kg Wil some recovery gear, half load of fuel and no body in it..

I was referring to the Tare weight of rego papers compared to tare weight of what you car is usually loaded at with out the extra's.

How does that compare with the Tare weight of your Rego papers Kallen?

[BigRAWesty]

I was referring to the Tare weight of rego papers compared to tare weight of what you car is usually loaded at with out the extra's.




I was referring to the Tare weight of rego papers compared to tare weight of what you car is usually loaded at with out the extra's.

How does that compare with the Tare weight of your Rego papers Kallen?
Doesn't state that on our papers

[BillsGU]

If you don't mind me asking.. how much?

They have the Patrol for a week. They remove the rear diff housing and weld on the laminations. I get new Lovell rated springs and cell foam shocks. Tower braces. LPV bracket and LPV adjustment. Offset castor bushes. Wheel alignment. ABS bracket. A couple of other bits I can't recall just now and most important an engineering certificate and a placquard that is fixed to the car to certify the new GVM.

Total cost is $3780.00

Plus they give me a loan car for the week to travel back to Albury and then back again to pick up the Patrol.

As I say - the alternatives (other than selling the Patrol and the caravan and sitting at home watching my toenails grow) are much more expensive as they all involve buying another vehicle of some type.

[BillsGU]

Most Tare weights are fairy tales. Some manufacturers quote tares with no fuel in the tanks, no water in the radiator, no oils in engine, gearbox, diffs, etc. Often these are the Tare weights that appear on rego papers. My papers say 2385 - but I have no idea what that includes. Of course you also have to add passenger's weights to the equation - and then add bull bar, drawers, .................................................. ..

[NissanGQ4.2]

Doesn't state that on our papers

That's surprising

[NissanGQ4.2]

Most Tare weights are fairy tales. Some manufacturers quote tares with no fuel in the tanks, no water in the radiator, no oils in engine, gearbox, diffs, etc. Often these are the Tare weights that appear on rego papers. My papers say 2385 - but I have no idea what that includes. Of course you also have to add passenger's weights to the equation - and then add bull bar, drawers, .................................................. ..

Not most, all. I know how it all works, well use 2 when I was working at a weighbridge 10 odd years ago. Was just curious 2 what their differences was.

[BillsGU]

I forgot to mention - one of the local car dealers supplied a brand new Patrol. It weighed in at 2500. Tare weight from a specification sheet is 2478. This vehicle was not registered and it was trucked from the dealer so I don't know how much fuel was in it.

[Hodge]

So just jumped on the weighbridge before and no surprises there she is not far off GVM.
2840kg without my self .
So 75kg, added, it comes up to 2915kg.
1520kg front
1320kg rear

That is with:
both tanks 98% full, bull bar, winch, roof rack and awning, cargo barrier. 33" tyres and steel rims x 5. Which is what the car rides around with 90% of the time.

165kg to play with. Add the missus and my so, fridge

So apparently / technically I'm already illegal by long shot, going by ADR's. lol It's ridiculous.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67586&stc=1

[mudski]

So just jumped on the weighbridge before and no surprises there she is not far off GVM.
2840kg without my self .
So 75kg, added, it comes up to 2915kg.
1520kg front
1320kg rear

That is with:
both tanks 98% full, bull bar, winch, roof rack and awning, cargo barrier. 33" tyres and steel rims x 5. Which is what the car rides around with 90% of the time.

165kg to play with. Add the missus and my so, fridge

So apparently / technically I'm already illegal by long shot, going by ADR's. lol It's ridiculous.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67586&stc=1
Sorry to say Eric but your over your GVM. If yours is the same as mine, 3000kg. Or yours might be 3040kg being a factory TD42...You need to include 7 people at 80kegs each and two full tanks of fuel.

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[Hodge]

Sorry to say Eric but your over your GVM. If yours is the same as mine, 3000kg. Or yours might be 3040kg being a factory TD42...You need to include 7 people at 80kegs each and two full tanks of fuel.

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I know mate. It's shit. Which is exactly why I said:
"technically I'm already illegal by long shot, going by ADR's. lol It's ridiculous."

[the evil twin]

Sorry to say Eric but your over your GVM. If yours is the same as mine, 3000kg. Or yours might be 3040kg being a factory TD42...You need to include 7 people at 80kegs each and two full tanks of fuel.

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No you don't.
All it means is you can't carry 7 people and 2 full tanks because you have used some of your load carrying capacity up with accessories etc.
EG the 11 seater 70 series Troopies can't carry more than 4 to 7 adults unless we only fill one tank and take out some of our Emergency Response gear... our Rangers (that haven't had a GVM upgrade) cant carry a ton in the tray 5 people and tow our boats.

The only way to be over GVM is to physically be over GVM

Sooo if you weigh your car and know the starting weight (IE tare plus every thing bolted on etc) then you know how much payload you can have till GVM.

[mudski]

Hmmm. That's not what i was told.

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[the evil twin]

Hmmm. That's not what i was told.

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I know... :)

I didn't think some of the other things you were told by that mob were quite right either :clownredpuff:

I'm not saying I'm right and they are wrong (I am actually but I am being polite today, I can apologise tomorrow) as it may simply be a context or whatever but I would def get a second opinion (or more) :049:

I am pretty confident if you got pulled over by a Scaley and tipped the scales at 3000 Kg (if GVM is 3040) and had 3 spare seats you cannot be given a bluey for being 200 Kg over GVM

[NissanGQ4.2]

I am pretty confident if you got pulled over by a Scaley and tipped the scales at 3000 Kg (if GVM is 3040) and had 3 spare seats you cannot be given a bluey for being 200 Kg over GVM

I am pretty confident on your confidence that you are right on this one

[BillsGU]

That's the problem ET. This is all so complicated and most people don't have a hope of understanding it all. Even some in the industry don't have a clue. It gets even more complicated when you tow - especially when you have to derate your GVM if you go over your nominal towball weight! For example - you could be towing a caravan and when you get weighed your vehicle could be within the GVM, your van could be within the ATM, your van and vehicle could be within the GCM, your axle weights could be under, your towball down weight could be OK - but you may still be booked because you did not allow for the derating of your GVM due to the towball weight exeeding the nominal weight.

Figure that out!

[BigRAWesty]

I know... :)

I didn't think some of the other things you were told by that mob were quite right either :clownredpuff:

I'm not saying I'm right and they are wrong (I am actually but I am being polite today, I can apologise tomorrow) as it may simply be a context or whatever but I would def get a second opinion (or more) :049:

I am pretty confident if you got pulled over by a Scaley and tipped the scales at 3000 Kg (if GVM is 3040) and had 3 spare seats you cannot be given a bluey for being 200 Kg over GVM
Yea I'm with you there..
That's sorta like a empty truck..
It has the capacity to carry 60T in its trailer. But you don't fill it to the top do you..

[Hodge]

I think there may be some confusion here. And "think" I know why.

ET is correct. Copper pulling someone over checking gvm isn't going to pretend there is a person sitting in each available seat.

What I think Mudski may have been told is because he's getting it engineered , so that way they have to simulate a person in each seat for brake test or whatever ...

My theory.

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[macca]

That's the problem ET. This is all so complicated and most people don't have a hope of understanding it all. Even some in the industry don't have a clue. It gets even more complicated when you tow - especially when you have to derate your GVM if you go over your nominal towball weight! For example - you could be towing a caravan and when you get weighed your vehicle could be within the GVM, your van could be within the ATM, your van and vehicle could be within the GCM, your axle weights could be under, your towball down weight could be OK - but you may still be booked because you did not allow for the derating of your GVM due to the towball weight exeeding the nominal weight.

Figure that out!

Talking to a vanning mate the other night, he thought I was blowing wind up his freckle when I told him that.
He is about to get a bigger van and said he couldn't put everything in the van he wanted so would load the extra in the tow vehicle. He doesn't believe me about that de-rating you posted.

[the evil twin]

I think there may be some confusion here. And "think" I know why.

ET is correct. Copper pulling someone over checking gvm isn't going to pretend there is a person sitting in each available seat.

What I think Mudski may have been told is because he's getting it engineered , so that way they have to simulate a person in each seat for brake test or whatever ...

My theory.

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I like your theory.
I think a lot of the misunderstandings are confusion arising from context.

[gaddy]

Talking to a vanning mate the other night, he thought I was blowing wind up his freckle when I told him that.
He is about to get a bigger van and said he couldn't put everything in the van he wanted so would load the extra in the tow vehicle. He doesn't believe me about that de-rating you posted.
My 19 ft van comes in at 3t , has a modified gvm up grade , with 140 kg ball weight , this allows me to carry extra water , fuel , tools etc in the van and not in the car , but does still not allow me to add any 1 of these , draws , long range tanks or rear bar or water to the car without going over , all we have in the car is the 4 of us and the 40lt engel ,

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[BillsGU]

Here is the table for a new Patrol:

Towball download Vehicle Mass

200kgs GVM (all models)

250kgs Reduce loaded vehicle mass below GVM by 150kgs

300kgs Reduce loaded vehicle mass below GVM by 220kgs

350kgs Reduce loaded vehicle mass below GVM by 290kgs

As you can see - the more the towball weight the lower your actual GVM is - PLUS - the towball weight is ALSO added to the total vehicle weight (the GVM).

Confused yet?

[BillsGU]

My 19 ft van comes in at 3t , has a modified gvm up grade , with 140 kg ball weight



In "theory" your towball weight is a bit low. For proper stabillity you usually should have around 10% of the towed weight on the towball.

[mudski]

I know... :)

I didn't think some of the other things you were told by that mob were quite right either :clownredpuff:

I'm not saying I'm right and they are wrong (I am actually but I am being polite today, I can apologise tomorrow) as it may simply be a context or whatever but I would def get a second opinion (or more) :049:

I am pretty confident if you got pulled over by a Scaley and tipped the scales at 3000 Kg (if GVM is 3040) and had 3 spare seats you cannot be given a bluey for being 200 Kg over GVM

Yup. I have rung so many engineers lately its not funny. And pretty much every engineer has told me something different. I suppose its the way they interpret the rules to how they do their work. One even told me a 2inch lift needed to be engineered, and he then said, I guarantee it will fail. Lol. When I get some time I want to scour the ADR VSB14 again to find out more info.

[BillsGU]

Yup. I have rung so many engineers lately its not funny. And pretty much every engineer has told me something different. I suppose its the way they interpret the rules to how they do their work. One even told me a 2inch lift needed to be engineered, and he then said, I guarantee it will fail. Lol. When I get some time I want to scour the ADR VSB14 again to find out more info.

I have found exactly the same with people I have asked.

The only person I have spoken to that makes any sense, is consistant and when I look up what he has told me (among the confusing mess of rules and regulations) actually makes sense is Paul at Statewide 4X4. That is why I am trusting him to do my GVM upgrade. I'll let you know the results next week.

[gaddy]

In "theory" your towball weight is a bit low. For proper stabillity you usually should have around 10% of the towed weight on the towball.
In " theory " but only being 19ft , on tandem simplicity offroad suspension, it sits and tracks very solid behind the car , and has no need for sway or load leveling bars, it actually tows better then my old jayco swan , and jayco 16ft single axle poptop, the previous owner spent a lot of time and money on getting it right , and conviently he towed with the same set up gu 4.2tdi that i do

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[Hodge]

This here is a very good read.
http://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/payload-gvm-need-know/

And also if you read the full issue, there is trailer download reductions explained. Not a bad read.

http://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/issue023/#21

[BillsGU]

Yep - it's good that a van "tows well" and you "don't even know it's there" and such, but it's when things go wrong that you need to ensure that your vehicle and van / trailer are well prepared. For instance under emergency braking or on wet slippery roads. That's when weights, brake set up, etc becomes critical.

As far as load levelers or sway bars are concerned, they are really named incorrectly and most people don't understand exactly what they do and how they do it. Yes they do level the load and they do help in keeping the towed vehicle from swaying - but they do this by transfering the load off the towball to in front of the rear axle.

If - for instance - you weiged your vehicle and trailer and calculated the ball weight with and without bars attached - you would find your ball weight is actually less with the bars. It is because this transfer of weight to in front of the rear axle that you get the advantage of stability and the fact that you are transfering weight closer to the front axle that you are getting a levelling effect.

IMHO bars are like an insurance policy, you may never actually need the advantage they produce - but it's certainly nice to have them when the processed food hits the fan.