Electrical problem with alternator/batter/short circuit?

[dom14]

Hi Guys,

My RB30 Patrol started having an electrical issue about a week or so ago.
I added most of the information of the problem and the history onto the pictures below.

I started as battery & handbrake indicator on the dashboard coming on after few minutes of
driving. It didn't get totally bright but started as a dim flickering and then gets brighter as I drive more.

The battery appeared to be fine. But, just to make sure I swapped the battery with the backup cranker that I carry with me.

I checked all the fuses at the indoor fuse board. They are all good.

The upgraded alternator was putting out 14.4-14.5 V when I did the job few months back.
Now it's outputting 14.1V at idle as well as high revs.
So, I'm guessing there might a be an issue with this alternator as well??!!

Why is the the fuse start cooking and blowing up?
I'm guessing that because of it's drawing too many amps due to a short circuit somewhere in that line?
Or can the problem explained from the slightly low(apparently) alternator output?
Is 14.1V that bad?

Thanx in advance for any help, tips or advice.

[4bye4]

Hey Dom - I have had random lights like that twice and both times it was the regulator in the alternator. Be very cautious mate because if the regulator has gone it will cook the battery and cost you a battery as well. You say you are reading 14.1 at idle and revs so sounds like its not regulating at all. Problem is if it does give up the ghost when you are at speed it might put out 15 volts or more and this will kill the battery. Mine was putting out 19 volts last time it broke, but what can you do, i had to get home so just tried to drive slow with all lights and aircon on to keep the voltage low. still cooked the battery but bate it home.

[the evil twin]

Hard to say after fiddling with the wiring and I can't exactly follow what you did but outside chance you have blown 1 diode of the Alternator Regulator.

Edit... balls'd up my prev edit... may possibly be brush related as well

[dom14]

Hey Dom - I have had random lights like that twice and both times it was the regulator in the alternator. Be very cautious mate because if the regulator has gone it will cook the battery and cost you a battery as well. You say you are reading 14.1 at idle and revs so sounds like its not regulating at all. Problem is if it does give up the ghost when you are at speed it might put out 15 volts or more and this will kill the battery. Mine was putting out 19 volts last time it broke, but what can you do, i had to get home so just tried to drive slow with all lights and aircon on to keep the voltage low. still cooked the battery but bate it home.

Thanx mate. I think you are pointing me at the right direction. During my "fiddling" to diagnose the problem, just after the fuse blew up, the dash battery/alternator voltage gauge started showing closer to 18V while flickering.

I'll make sure I get the alternator properly tested.

In the meantime, I'm thinking putting back the stock alternator and see how it goes.

Do you think that's a good way go about this?

Thanx

[dom14]

Hard to say after fiddling with the wiring and I can't exactly follow what you did but outside chance you have blown 1 diode of the Alternator Regulator.

Hi mate,
The only fiddling I did was the redirection of the sense wire. In stock wiring both the B+ and sense wire joins 10cm from the alternator. I disconnected the sense wire from the
joint and plugged it. Then I sent the sense wire from the alternator to battery with a 5A fuse. That modification has been popular with the GQ from what I've heard.

The stock alternator and the upgraded EF alternator are electrically identical other than the 110A output. The pins from the alternators are the same configuration.

[Throbbinhood]

Sounds like a stuffed alternator.

Out of interest Dom, did you replace the charge wire between the alternator and the battery?

Also, does the red wire in picture two go anywhere near the alternator?

[dom14]

Sounds like a stuffed alternator.

Out of interest Dom, did you replace the charge wire between the alternator and the battery?

Also, does the red wire in picture two go anywhere near the alternator?

Yes, remember we discussed that in detail in one of the threads?
I left the original charge wire as it was and then added a new thicker wire with a higher amp fuse.
It should be good, because I spent crazy amount of time on that mod to make sure it's all perfect.
I gathered crazy number of photos and was going to post the details of the whole mod here.
Got too busy with other stuff, but I will post those information here soon.

I think you guys are right. The alternator I bought was clogged up with tranny oil from the leaking radiator oil cooling line.
I did a good cleaning job, but I think it might have been partially stuffed already.

No, the red wire goes directly to the battery positive terminal.
It's the main battery output line for most of the interior electrics.

Both you and me did the things pretty much the same way.
You're not having any issues, but I do.
I think the alternator is to blame.

[Throbbinhood]

Yeah my money is on the alternator being cactus.

If you have the old one, throw it in and see if it resolves your problem and if so, you'll have your confirmation :)

[Yendor]

Why do you still have that inline fuse holder?. It needs to be an ANL fuse or at least a maxi fuse.

"The upgraded alternator was putting out 14.4-14.5 V when I did the job few months back.
Now it's outputting 14.1V at idle as well as high revs." Were these readings taken at the back of the alternator or at the battery?

The warning lights coming on dimly can be caused by a couple of reasons.

1. You have a stuffed diode in the warning light circuit in the alternator.

2. You have voltage drop in the vehicle's wire harness.

Based on the voltage readings above I would say door number 2 is what you seek :)

[dom14]

Why do you still have that inline fuse holder?. It needs to be an ANL fuse or at least a maxi fuse.

Hi Rodney,
I had very little knowledge about ANL or maxi fuses, when I was doing the alternator upgrade. If I recall correctly, the inline fuse(25A-30A) was already there, so I didn't touch anything.


"The upgraded alternator was putting out 14.4-14.5 V when I did the job few months back.
Now it's outputting 14.1V at idle as well as high revs." Were these readings taken at the back of the alternator or at the battery?

At the battery. The battery charge was good at the time I took the reading. From memory, I made sure the reading was consistent at idling and higher revs.

Should I test the voltage at the back of the alternator as well?


The warning lights coming on dimly can be caused by a couple of reasons.

1. You have a stuffed diode in the warning light circuit in the alternator.

2. You have voltage drop in the vehicle's wire harness.

Yes. I'm exploring both possibilities atm. I just pulled out the upgraded alternator and putting back on the old one to confirm whether it's the alternator.
I couldn't finish it today as it is a bastard of a job without much room, and I lost a bolt and nut. I'm going to have to wait till tomorrow morning to find them. :)


Based on the voltage readings above I would say door number 2 is what you seek :)

I hope not. Finding weaknesses in the wire harness will be a real bastard. :D

Thanx
Dom

[dom14]

I'm wondering,
Why does the fuse heat up when the engine is running, but NOT heating up when ignition on and NOT running?!!!

[Yendor]

I thought we had already spoken about this. That inline fuse holder is only capable of around 10 amps continues when mounted under the bonnet. In your case it is the main charge line between the battery and alternator.

Yes knowing the voltage reading at the back of upgraded alternator would of been handy.

A simple blocking diode fitted in the alternator warning light circuit may have been enough to stop the warning lights from glowing.

[Yendor]

I'm wondering,
Why does the fuse heat up when the engine is running, but NOT heating up when ignition on and NOT running?!!!

Because your alternator is not charging when the engine isn't running.

[dom14]

I thought we had already spoken about this. That inline fuse holder is only capable of around 10 amps continues when mounted under the bonnet. In your case it is the main charge line between the battery and alternator.

Hi Rodney,
The 25A fuse line in the picture is NOT the main charge line between the battery & alternator.
Sorry if I confused you. The B+ in the picture means Battery positive, so the fuse and the wire in the picture connects to the battery positive directly.

The original battery positive to alternator B+ wire is also still there with a 30A inline fuse(as it was before).

I also added an extra 60A fuse with a thicker wire between alternator B+ & Battery Positive.

The original battery positive to alternator B+ wire is also still there with a 30A inline fuse(as it was before).


Yes knowing the voltage reading at the back of upgraded alternator would of been handy.

Yes, I should've done that. Somehow I thought 14.1V at the battery terminal meant alternator was still putting out enough voltage to charge the battery, and "decided" to exclude the charge line(s) from the problem. Both charge lines(30A & 60A) appeared to be good with both fuses in good condition.


A simple blocking diode fitted in the alternator warning light circuit may have been enough to stop the warning lights from glowing.

I didn't understand that. But, i'm guessing you're guiding me on the assumption the pictured fuse above is the alternator to battery charge wire, which it is NOT. I'll update the description straightaway.


P.S.
Hi Rodney,
My bad. Above ranting is all wrong. Somehow I've been bit retarded lately and have forgotten what I did few months ago. No excuse.

The 25A fuse line in the picture is indeed the original 30A main charge line between the battery & alternator.
For some stupid reason I had trouble remembering what I did only few months ago.
This is why I should have documented everything here, so it's available for both myself & others.

[dom14]

I'm wondering,
Why does the fuse heat up when the engine is running, but NOT heating up when ignition on and NOT running?!!!


Because your alternator is not charging when the engine isn't running.

I'm guessing you based the above explanation thinking the pictured fuse line is the alternator charge line to the battery?



Above stupid post by me is a result of being unable to remember what I did few months back, and making stupid assumptions as well.

[dom14]

This is the updated picture no 3

[dom14]

My apologies guys.
Apparent real reason for this drama is in the below picture.

The added 60A alternator charge wire with fuse(alternator B+ to battery positive) is the real problem.
The fuse has broken and somehow has become open circuit.

How stupid a person has to be to waste hours pulling out an alternator without properly checking all the fuses?!!!
You are reading about a guy who's that retarded.

Now, I have to put the alternator back, and I'm pretty sure this is the problem, not the upgraded alternator.

[Throbbinhood]

My apologies guys.
Apparent real reason for this drama is in the below picture.

The added 60A alternator charge wire with fuse(alternator B+ to battery positive) is the real problem.
The fuse has broken and somehow has become open circuit.

How stupid a person has to be to waste hours pulling out an alternator without properly checking all the fuses?!!!
You are reading about a guy who's that retarded.

Now, I have to put the old alternator back, and I'm pretty sure this is the problem, not the upgraded alternator.

That's why I questioned whether you added the extra charge wire. Then when you said that wire goes to the interior electronics (in your picture), I didn't think to question it.

As frustrated as you are - be happy. Much simpler solution than chasing a gremlin in the loom somewhere.

[the evil twin]

Why have you got a 60 Amp fuse in a 110 Amp circuit?
... or have I missed something?

[dom14]

Why have you got a 60 Amp fuse in a 110 Amp circuit?
... or have I missed something?

The original 30A fuse line(as in the picture 3) is still there.
Then I added another charge wire with a 60A fuse. So, I thought the combined 90amp(60+30) was close enough.
60amp fuse was broken btw, not blown. So, it's my stupidity, nobody else. :)
Everybody's here was trying to help me based on the incorrect information I posted initially.

The correct information is as in the picture no 3 below.

[dom14]

That's why I questioned whether you added the extra charge wire. Then when you said that wire goes to the interior electronics (in your picture), I didn't think to question it.

As frustrated as you are - be happy. Much simpler solution than chasing a gremlin in the loom somewhere.

:D
If there was gremlin in the loom somewhere after all these, I would've torched the bastard. ;)

Yeah, I was obviously too 'confused' to remember the wire in the picture was indeed the original alternator charge wire. :)

[the evil twin]

The original 30A fuse line(as in the picture 3) is still there.
Then I added another charge wire with a 60A fuse. So, I thought the combined 90amp(60+30) was close enough.
60amp fuse was broken btw, not blown. So, it's my stupidity, nobody else. :)
Everybody's here was trying to help me based on the incorrect information I posted initially.

The correct information is as in the picture no 3 below.

Sooooo... how does the 90 amps of electricity know that twice as much of it is supposed to flow down the 60 amp wire as the 30 amp wire?

[dom14]

Sooooo... how does the 90 amps of electricity know that twice as much of it is supposed to flow down the 60 amp wire as the 30 amp wire?

I'm assuming for the most part it won't be anywhere near 90 amps from either one of them. Battery is fully charged at most of the time, so it won't be drawing as much power. Of course, it will be a different story when I connect the auxiliary battery and any auxiliary appliances that goes with it.
I guess I'm gonna have to deal with when it comes to that and add another alternator charge wire or upgrade the 60A wire to 100A or something. But, for the time being, it works ok, I guess.

As for you question, I'm assuming the ohms law??!!!

60A wire is thicker and provides an easier path for the current to flow and current usually takes the easier path to flow, which means more current will flow through the less resistant thicker 60A wire while less current will pass through across the more resistant 30A wire?

V=IR ----> I=V/R (I=amps, V=voltage, R=resistance)
Assuming V and R are constants and I is the variable,
Low resistance(R), thicker 60A wire will carry more amps(I) according to the ohms law equation above.(thicker wires have lower resistance, R)

When we were debating this issue in a previous thread, somebody in this forum told me, in reality, 60A doesn't exactly carry twice as many amps as 30A, but it's close enough for our estimations. Factors like, number of copper strands of the wire, diameter of each strands of the wire, etc etc plays a part in it.

[the evil twin]

If you are relying on Ohms Law then you need to know (very accurately) the resistance of the "30 amp" cct incl fuse, fuse holder and the resistance of the "60 amp" wire including fuse and fuse holder etc.

If the wire resistance, crimps, joins, fuses etc aren't balanced 1/3rd to 2/3rds then your wiring will cause you grief at some point.

EG if that 60 amp path goes open or even higher by an ohm or two then things will start getting hot and voltages will drop... sound familiar?

[dom14]

If you are relying on Ohms Law then you need to know (very accurately) the resistance of the "30 amp" cct incl fuse, fuse holder and the resistance of the "60 amp" wire including fuse and fuse holder etc.

If the wire resistance, crimps, joins, fuses etc aren't balanced 1/3rd to 2/3rds then your wiring will cause you grief at some point.

Yeah, I know it will cause me some grief once I start adding the aux battery and other aux appliances. ATM, I think it's ok.
It was a cheap arse job as well as bit of experimentation. I will replace it with a single sufficient wire & fuse at some stage. :)


EG if that 60 amp path goes open or even higher by an ohm or two then things will start getting hot and voltages will drop... sound familiar?

Yep, the problem I had above. :D
How can I not know? :D

Instead of replacing the fuse in two minutes, I managed to spend hours pulling out an alternator & putting it back in. I'm the BEST auto electrician ever! :D ;)

[dom14]

Alternator output voltage(measures at battery terminals) is about 14.2V now. It jumps to 14.3 or 14.4 on higher revs.
This is the EF Falcan 110A alternator that I modified to fit the RB30 patrol.

[Throbbinhood]

Sounds perfect.

[the evil twin]

Yeah, I know it will cause me some grief once I start adding the aux battery and other aux appliances. ATM, I think it's ok.
It was a cheap arse job as well as bit of experimentation. I will replace it with a single sufficient wire & fuse at some stage. :)



Yep, the problem I had above. :D
How can I not know? :D

Instead of replacing the fuse in two minutes, I managed to spend hours pulling out an alternator & putting it back in. I'm the BEST auto electrician ever! :D ;)

ROFL... matches my panel beating skills then

Cool bananas... just don't want to see ya stranded on the side of the road one night with the bonnet up peering at a molten mass of wiring.

[Yendor]

Stuff Ohm's law, Murphy's law kicks in first. That inline fuse holder needs to go.

[Yendor]

Alternator output voltage(measures at battery terminals) is about 14.2V now. It jumps to 14.3 or 14.4 on higher revs.
This is the EF Falcan 110A alternator that I modified to fit the RB30 patrol.

Is it the same reading at the back of the alternator?

[Yendor]

What other nasties are hidden behind the white tape in the Blue wire with the Red trace in your photos?

[the evil twin]

Stuff Ohm's law, Murphy's law kicks in first. That inline fuse holder needs to go.

Hehehe... and there was me trying the subtle approach :-)

[dom14]

Is it the same reading at the back of the alternator?

No idea. Believe me or not, I still haven't done it, 'cos it's a tough cookie to get there.
I'll do it first thing tomorrow morning and post the result here. :)

[dom14]

Stuff Ohm's law, Murphy's law kicks in first. That inline fuse holder needs to go.

Abso-fracking-lutely!!!
My life has been revolving around Murphy's law since the beginning.
What can go wrong tend to go wrong most of the time. :D

BTW, the 60A wire and fuse is also inline.
But, it's one of those fuse holders meant for audio applications.
It's pretty good, except the fuse is a glass one. :)

[dom14]

ROFL... matches my panel beating skills then

Cool bananas... just don't want to see ya stranded on the side of the road one night with the bonnet up peering at a molten mass of wiring.

I can't promise that won't happen.

On the other hand, my panel beating skills aren't that bad. The first panel beating I ever did came out pretty good, mid last year.
It's the electrical stuff that I tend to stuff up. :)

Believe me, I carry two fire extinguishers that I bought from ALDI supermarket.
They are in the back of the Patrol all the time. I'm not kidding. :D

[dom14]

What other nasties are hidden behind the white tape in the Blue wire with the Red trace in your photos?

That's the fuse for the immobilizer unit. Believe me, I've got nothing to do with that.
The bloke before me has done it. I initially thought the bastard actually sticky taped the wire to the fuse.
But, there is actually round fuse holder sockets that hold the fuse. Sticky tape was put around to insulate it.
It is still not that great. But not as bad as I thought.
I know, I should replace it with a proper fuse holder.
I bought enough fuse holders to replace any dodgy work like that last year.
I still haven't got around to do it. :)

[Yendor]

Hehehe... and there was me trying the subtle approach :-)

LOL…. You know I'm not good at being subtle.

[Yendor]

No idea. Believe me or not, I still haven't done it, 'cos it's a tough cookie to get there.
I'll do it first thing tomorrow morning and post the result here. :)

If it's to hard to get to the back of the alternator don't worry about it. I don't want you blowing anything up :)

[Yendor]

That's the fuse for the immobilizer unit. Believe me, I've got nothing to do with that.
The bloke before me has done it. I initially thought the bastard actually sticky taped the wire to the fuse.
But, there is actually round fuse holder sockets that hold the fuse. Sticky tape was put around to insulate it.
It is still not that great. But not as bad as I thought.
I know, I should replace it with a proper fuse holder.
I bought enough fuse holders to replace any dodgy work like that last year.
I still haven't got around to do it. :)

OK I promise I will stop asking question now LOL