Auto/ manual hubs & auto diff locker

[richscott]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, I have however found it to be a source of valuable info. My question has probably already been discussed at some stage.

I own a 2012 GU that I am gradually personalising as finances allow.

I am looking at purchasing a front diff locker (comes standard with an electronic rear diff lock). There is much discussion about the merits or other wise of manual v auto and one brand over another. My question relates to the use of the standard auto/manual locking hubs and the installation of an auto diff locker.
Will having the auto hubs and an auto locker mean that the axle will always be engaged regardless of whether or not 4wd is engaged?
I am concerned that if the auto hubs engage the diff lock when not in 4wd that there will be an increase in driveline wear, handling issues on sealed roads and the often cited noise associated with the auto diff lock.
Would I need to install manual locking hubs to overcome this (if it is indeed a problem)?

Many thanks
Richard

[threedogs]

You would need to convert the auto hubs back to manual locking hubs.
You have a choice of an E-Locker a Pro-Locker or the ARB locker,
The last 2 will require a compressor to engage them,, the E-locker
is just the flick of a switch

[richscott]

Many thanks threedogs, it is as I suspected, more money!!

[threedogs]

More than happy to spend others ppls monies
PM sent

[Chubba]

I think you might find that's not quite correct TD. The auto hubs are only engaged if the front prop shaft turns the diff and the half axels. So if 4wd is not selected then there will be no drive to the front diff so the auto hubs will not lock (in the auto position) regardless of whether there is an auto diff locker or a manual diff locker. So Richard the auto diff lock in the front will be fine with your original auto hubs.

[richscott]

Thanks Chubba

I wish I could get my head around the mechanics of it! I haven't been able to find much info on the manufacturers websites (Detroit locker, Lock right, LOKKA). In my head I thought that the auto locker would still be engaged when not in 4wd, from torque from the wheels rather than the drive shaft.

Cheers Richard

[Chubba]

Yeah. The hubs disconect the wheels from the axels so when in 2wd the front diff just sits there doing FA.
Now a front auto diff locker in a full time 4wd (as in some landcruisers) is another story.

[Yendor]

I have owned two GU that I have installed auto lockers in the front.

The first vehicle had the locker installed just after 80,000Ks and I didn't have any problems with the auto hubs. They were still working fine when I sold that vehicle.

The second vehicle had the front locker installed at around 5,000Ks. I constantly have problems with the auto hubs engaging while in two wheel drive. Mostly noticeable when turning sharp corners on the road there is an audible clicking noise coming from the LHS auto hub and occasionally you feel the vibration/drone that comes through the vehicle if the hubs are engaged and the vehicle is travelling above 80Km/h on the road.

I have been told that you can run different oil in the transfer case to prevent the front driveshaft from spinning when in two wheel drive??

There is a mod you can do to the auto hubs that removes the automatic part thus turning them into a manual hub.

Everyone seems to think the aftermarket freewheeling hubs are rubbish and not to get them. I don't know maybe MudRunner can answer this?.

The other option is to find some secondhand freewheel hubs out of a GQ.

[rusty_nail]

I think you might find that's not quite correct TD. The auto hubs are only engaged if the front prop shaft turns the diff and the half axels. So if 4wd is not selected then there will be no drive to the front diff so the auto hubs will not lock (in the auto position) regardless of whether there is an auto diff locker or a manual diff locker. So Richard the auto diff lock in the front will be fine with your original auto hubs.

yeah your right chubba, i have a 04 GU with auto hubs, auto lokka and auto transmission. TBH, the Lokka can be a PITA to disengage sometimes but the traction increase is awesome. its all about what your prepared to sacrifice, either spending a bit longer driving back and forward to disengaging the hubs and lokka or take more time winching/struggling up tracks. oh, another downside to the auto lokka is once you are in 4wd ITS ON and you really know about it the steering becomes much heavier, im actually reluctant to engage 4wd until i really do need it because the LSD is so tight it will get me most places.

[Rock Trol]

The other thing to keep in mind is that with an auto locker will reduce you ability to drive at higher speeds in 4WD such as on outback dirt roads. Some people don't do this anyway so it wouldn't be an issue. But if you go to 4WD as soon as you are on dirt for the added traction and safety then you will disappointed with an auto locker. This is the only thing I dislike about my front LOKKA.

I have manual hubs so cant help with your auto hub question. But when I go onto dirt roads I lock my hubs and tend to keep in 2WD until I need traction. Steering is still light in 4WD unless there's a lot of traction like on rocks. Then I lift off the accelerator for a moment, turn the wheel and power up again. This has only happened a handful of times. It's pretty easy to steer when you pick up the technique.

[richscott]

Many thanks RT for your helpful insight.

Cheers Richard

[04OFF]

Ok, so we need to first start by clearing up something about a Auto Lokka, they are "Always" engaged, both sides/axles of the diff are always meshed together by 2 separate plates, both with meshing teeth, the tooth meshing plate pressure, is only maintained by very small soft springs (can compress in your fingers), when the diff is NOT being "driven" with force from the front drive shaft, the Lokka's teeth are allowed to slip very easily (or skip/hop is a better description).


When the diff center "is" driven by the front driveshaft, the two plates with teeth are forced together, thus not allowing them to separate until the driving force of the drive shaft is relaxed, so a Auto Lokka is always locked, its just that when you don't "drive" the diff with the engine power, the Lokka can unlock (or slip) with ease, it takes a bit of practice, but once rolling, this allows you to back off the throttle and steer the car in 4wd ,without the harsh drag normally associated with a locked diff.





Yendor has hit the nail on the head, i know a guy who ran a Auto Lokka for about 3 years with Auto Hubs, then the hubs played up out of the blue, and he changed to manual hubs.




When i fitted my Auto Lokka, one my Auto hubs would chatter in 2wd as if attempting to engage


You can modify your Auto Hubs to work as manual hubs (as i have) in about 10 min a side, it requires no parts as you just remove a piece from each hub (plus its a reverseable process) , once finished, you just use your wheel brace to lock the hub, i have had mine this way for years along with my Auto Lokka.





Remember, with a Auto Lokka , you can have the hubs "locked", and still drive in 2wd on the bitumen, because the drive shaft is not "driving" the diff center in 2wd mode, so the Lokka is 100% fee to disengage with ease for turning corners, and so steering will operate almost unaffected , i do this on a regular basis.


Also remember ,If you have manual hubs, you can simply only lock "one" hub, and your car will simulate close to the driving characteristics of a standard open center front diff (for high speed dirt driving), personally if never come across that as a problem on dirt, on a wet clay slope yes, but again, unlocking one hub does the trick.




The upsides of a Auto Lokka far outweigh any downsides IMO :wink:

[04OFF]

Explains more on converting Auto hubs to Manual...........



http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?596-Fixing-GQ-GU-auto-hubs&highlight=converting+auto+hubs+manual+hubs

[Rock Trol]

04OFF has hit the nail on the head. Just by adjusting your driving style and using some of the above techniques the auto locker is not a hard device to live with. By having manual hubs or converting yours into manual you get the option to run in 3 wheel drive for situations such as slippery side slopes. The non powered wheel (side on the upper slope) acts as an anchor to hold the car in place while the lower side provides drive.

I forget mine is there most of the time but when the going gets tough, the amount of traction is amazing.

[richscott]

Hi Yendor,

How many Ks did you put on the first GU with the auto locker? Do you have any theories as to why the second one gives you problems?

Cheers Richard

[richscott]

Brilliant post 04OFF, your explanation has helped alleviate many of my concerns. It sounds like (as with anything) you learn to manage the characteristics of the device. I really cant justify the cost of an air or e locker and from the posts I'm not sure I would be any better off.

Cheers Richard

[Yendor]

I put about 30,000Ks on my first GU with the auto locker fitted.

This vehicle it seems to only play up when it's hot (but not all the time) so I 'm guessing it's a tolerance issue.

To be honest I don't think it's a big deal. If your vehicle plays up after the locker is fitted just mod your auto hubs.

[Rock Trol]

Brilliant post 04OFF, your explanation has helped alleviate many of my concerns. It sounds like (as with anything) you learn to manage the characteristics of the device. I really cant justify the cost of an air or e locker and from the posts I'm not sure I would be any better off.

Cheers Richard


The auto works just as well as the others in that you never get spinning on one wheel and the car stopping. They only unlock when there is traction. When there is little traction they are locked.

[04OFF]

Brilliant post 04OFF, your explanation has helped alleviate many of my concerns. It sounds like (as with anything) you learn to manage the characteristics of the device. I really cant justify the cost of an air or e locker and from the posts I'm not sure I would be any better off.

Cheers Richard

Thanks mate, yeh i remember when i was contemplating a Auto Lokka a few years back, i was amazed at how many people suggested how good they are, yet with all the Auto Lokka owners , nobody really properly explained how the car drove and worked , just that a Lokka is great off road.



In particular, i wanted to know all about how they drove in the sand, (as i do a lot of beach work), usually you would not use a front diff lock in the sand unless stuck, so i was very concerned about owning a Lokka, as sand offers little resistance to get the Lokka to "give" on turning.

I also go to stradbroke island a lot, here you can go from bitumen to sand and back again 10 times a day, i did not want to have to get out and lock/unlock hubs every time i enter/exit the beach, yet know body seemed to be able to tell me 100% the facts on this situation.





In the end i asked a forum member (one who had a Lokka) to do some testing on wet grass for me, hard circles and the like, this allowed me to help understand how it may work.




You do have to change your driving style a little in sand, but once the art is mastered, the car performs much better than without a Lokka IMO.


This video (around 1.16) shows how there is no extra ploughing in soft sand (Auto Lokka, both front hubs locked)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Blxt87-7X0


Hope this may help put your mind a little more at ease about these things :wink:

[the evil twin]

This is my third truck with an Auto Locker and I have had two others with air lockers
As 04OFF says they should really be called an Auto Unlocker

Once you get how they work and adjust your driving style they are pretty damn good.
The only times I have ever had problems with the locker not releasing so the front could differentiate was;
a) on wet clay pan when the traction was about as good as an ice sheet with 100 litres of 20W50 spread on it
b) down the beach on compacted powdery sand with too much power on, so maybe more driver error than the Lokka

With manual hubs I would occasionally unlock the drivers side (short axle) if I was concerned but with auto hubs IMHO just tough it out or change them to manual ones

[Rock Trol]

As ET said they are an unlocker. In fact they allow one wheel to 'over-run'. In effect the outside wheel is driven faster by the ground once torque is released (power off accelerator). On an open diff or LSD the tyres (axles) can turn faster, slower or same speed as the prop shaft.

With an auto locker tyres usually turn the same speed as the shaft or one will over-run to release the stress. They can NEVER turn slower, unless something breaks.

In a selectable locker (air/electric) the axles/tyres can only run at the same speed as the prop shaft when its on. Unless it breaks. That's why they are hard to turn.

[richscott]

Thanks again 04OFF, great video.
I also do a lot of sand driving over here on the West Coast of South Oz, in many places the soft sandy stretches are interspersed with rocky outcrops that have to be negotiated (particularly at high tide). I reckon I'll install an auto locker and use it for a while, if I need to deactivate the auto hub mechanism I can do that down the track if it causes me issues.

thanks again Richard

[richscott]

Thanks RT, it has been well worth asking the questions. The honest "real world" experience and advice from this forum is fantastic.

Cheers Richard

[Chubba]

Thanks RT, it has been well worth asking the questions. The honest "real world" experience and advice from this forum is fantastic.

Cheers Richard

Good mate. Make sure you let us know how it's goes.