The safest cleaning solvent for alternator interior?

[dom14]

Hi Guys,

I have an alternator from an EF Falcon that I'm using to upgrade my existing alternator of my Patrol.
I found out there's a fair bit gunk build up inside the alternator. I cleaned the outside gunk using a petrol soaked cloth. However I'm bit unsure how to clean the interior without damaging the insulation coating on the coil windings.
I can use petrol with a brush, but not too sure whether it's ok to do that.
I'm planning to replace the bearings, so it's not a problem if petrol gets into the bearings.
I'm pretty sure electronic parts like rectifier and the regulator won't be affected by petrol.

I can also use degreaser and hose off all the gunk using high pressure water spray.

The reason I'm going to all the trouble to clean the interior of this alternator is because I don't want the alternator parts to overheat.
The gunk inside is a mixture of transmission oil & dust. EF Falcons have reputation for leaking transmission oil onto the alternator. That's the reason for my trouble.

So, petrol, degreaser or something else?
Basically I'm planning to spray the cleaner and then use a plastic brush to brush off the gunk. Then either hose it off with water or let it sun dry depending on the cleaner I use.

MY major concern is any possible damage to the coil winding insulation coating from the cleaning chemical.

Thanks in advance for any tips/advice.

[04OFF]

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/CRC-Automotive-Electronic-Cleaner-300g.aspx?pid=13177#Recommendations


http://www.bunnings.com.au/wd-40-specialist-290g-fast-drying-contact-cleaner-_p6100409

[garett]

what he said or i use brake cleaner but probably not as good as the correct stuff but still safer than petrol

[threedogs]

From memory we used Kero and a brush to clean the winding area on motors
Would not be using high pressure for anything,

[dom14]

From memory we used Kero and a brush to clean the winding area on motors
Would not be using high pressure for anything,

Thanx mate. If Kero is ok, I reckon petrol or degreaser should be ok as well?!

BTW, when I said high pressure I didn't exactly mean with high pressure pump, but rather using a normal garden hose with highest pressure possible.

[dom14]

what he said or i use brake cleaner but probably not as good as the correct stuff but still safer than petrol

You reckon petrol or kero may not be good for the copper coil windings?
Insulation on coil windings is a some kind lacquer, isn't it?
So, heavy solvents like petrol can't be good?!!

BTW, I used high pressure air and then water hose to clean the radiator & the condenser.
I'm wondering whether it was a bad idea?

Thanx mate

[garett]

You reckon petrol or kero may not be good for the copper coil windings?
Insulation on coil windings is a some kind lacquer, isn't it?
So, heavy solvents like petrol can't be good?!!

BTW, I used high pressure air and then water hose to clean the radiator & the condenser.
I'm wondering whether it was a bad idea?

Thanx mate

i use a gernie to clean rads/condensers just be really careful

yeah it's like a clear lacquer so i'm just a little concerned about strong solvents. could be fine but i'm unsure... never wanted to risk it on my own stuff, but hey it sounds like it works, (i might have to try it on a dead one to see for myself could be quicker and cheaper)

[dom14]

i use a gernie to clean rads/condensers just be really careful

yeah it's like a clear lacquer so i'm just a little concerned about strong solvents. could be fine but i'm unsure... never wanted to risk it on my own stuff, but hey it sounds like it works, (i might have to try it on a dead one to see for myself could be quicker and cheaper)

Hi Garett,
I did some reading on the internet and they apparently spray a clean lacquer/varnish etc on the copper wires and probably something else as a finish coating.
Solvents are apparently a not a good idea since they can remove some of the insulation coating & obviously brushing with solvents(which I was planning to do) is a bad idea. I think if I spray a clear lacquer similar to the original spray after cleaning, it should be ok, but too much work I reckon.(apparently that's what pro's do when they have to clean coil windings).

The problem with this alternator is that there's too much grime inside it. It works fine, but I worry it might overheat as all the heat generating parts are covered with the grime.
The cooling fan may not be enough. It's an internal cooling fan, but fan itself covered with this crap. In theory, bit of transmission oil inside the the alternator can be good for
heat dissipation, but it won't be when there's more grime than oil.

I reckon I'm probably better off using a warm water+detergent bath with a soft brush and then sun dry the unit completely. By the sound of it, it won't be a quick job, which is ok, 'cos I still got the stock alternator, so I'm in no hurry.

If I use solvents like petrol or kero, I probably wanna spray some coil winding insulation lacquer/varnish afterwards.

I also have general purpose degreaser, which I reckon safer than petrol or kero.

So, I think I'll go with water+detergent or degreaser. Brushing is not recommended, but I can't see how I can get rid of most of the crap without at least a soft brush.

Cheers

[Throbbinhood]

It's a great mod. Don't forget to upgrade/add a bigger wire from the alternator to the battery.

Also if yours was like mine, remember where the smaller wires go. One of them goes to ground - I forgot this and connected it to positive.. Bit of smoke as it was an earth wire that wasn't fused..
Thankfully only had to cut a bit of cable, the rest seemed unaffected.

Also, you may need to slightly machine the spacer that sits behind the pulley. I wasn't happy with how the nut sat (not enough purchase) so a friend fabbed up a new spacer.
Everything still lined up ok with the different spacer, bought a couple of spare belts in case I had any issues, but it's probably done around 3000km's since I've fitted it still on the original belt.
I figure if it didn't line up correctly, it'd squeal, and I doubt the belt would last this long.

Plus, this means you just need another pulley for your original alternator and you have a working spare (or take it as is if you take what you need to swap pulleys on the tracks).

[Robo]

Wouldn't ya simply use electronics cleaner.
available from Jaycar.

[dom14]

It's a great mod. Don't forget to upgrade/add a bigger wire from the alternator to the battery.

Also if yours was like mine, remember where the smaller wires go. One of them goes to ground - I forgot this and connected it to positive.. Bit of smoke as it was an earth wire that wasn't fused..
Thankfully only had to cut a bit of cable, the rest seemed unaffected.

Also, you may need to slightly machine the spacer that sits behind the pulley. I wasn't happy with how the nut sat (not enough purchase) so a friend fabbed up a new spacer.
Everything still lined up ok with the different spacer, bought a couple of spare belts in case I had any issues, but it's probably done around 3000km's since I've fitted it still on the original belt.
I figure if it didn't line up correctly, it'd squeal, and I doubt the belt would last this long.

Plus, this means you just need another pulley for your original alternator and you have a working spare (or take it as is if you take what you need to swap pulleys on the tracks).

Hi Chris,
I was onto getting another pulley, then realized removing the pulley isn't that hard with the right tool, but I reckon it's better to have another pulley so I can swap the alternator without having to stuff around too much.
I fabricated the spacers for the pulley & the alternator mounting bolt, both by myself. It wasn't that hard, and wasn't that much of "fabrication" either.(I like the word, :) )
Yeah, it all lined up pretty well, only thing is that the alternator is a bit of PITA, 'cos I managed to get a one covered with transmission oil damage. It's working fine, just bit too much crap inside.
From what I see, I can't get the wires wrong, 'cos it's exactly like the original one. The socket is the same for the trigger wire and the sense wire(do tell me if that's not the case). Then Battery wire is the same way,except I need a bigger lug to fit the wire(I have to do all new 100A battery wire+fuse anyway).
Earth wire is the same as well. So, I'm not sure how you got it mixed up. Probably the one you got hold of is bit different on rear connections?
I'm pretty sure you're lucky to not to cook anything inside the alternator when you connected the earth wire to the B+. I guess since the short circuit happens before the alternator internal parts, you would've had just enough time to disconnect it before any damage.

I got all the pictures and details of the little project. I'll post it as a thread soon.

Cheers

[dom14]

Wouldn't ya simply use electronics cleaner.
available from Jaycar.

Hi Robo,
Yes, that's the one that's been recommended. It's a $25 small can, and I'm not too sure that's enough for the amount of grime inside it. So, I reckon it's not cost effective to go down that path.
By the looks of it, it needs a bath of the cleaning chemical. Basically, a fair bit of transmission oil had been pouring into the alternator.
Combine that with with dust getting into it over the years, you can imagine the amount of crud build up.

[Throbbinhood]

Hi Chris,
I was onto getting another pulley, then realized removing the pulley isn't that hard with the right tool, but I reckon it's better to have another pulley so I can swap the alternator without having to stuff around too much.
I fabricated the spacers for the pulley & the alternator mounting bolt, both by myself. It wasn't that hard, and wasn't that much of "fabrication" either.(I like the word, :) )
Yeah, it all lined up pretty well, only thing is that the alternator is a bit of PITA, 'cos I managed to get a one covered with transmission oil damage. It's working fine, just bit too much crap inside.
From what I see, I can't get the wires wrong, 'cos it's exactly like the original one. The socket is the same for the trigger wire and the sense wire(do tell me if that's not the case). Then Battery wire is the same way,except I need a bigger lug to fit the wire(I have to do all new 100A battery wire+fuse anyway).
Earth wire is the same as well. So, I'm not sure how you got it mixed up. Probably the one you got hold of is bit different on rear connections?
I'm pretty sure you're lucky to not to cook anything inside the alternator when you connected the earth wire to the B+. I guess since the short circuit happens before the alternator internal parts, you would've had just enough time to disconnect it before any damage.

I got all the pictures and details of the little project. I'll post it as a thread soon.

Cheers

Well, I ended up earthing that wire to the chassis. The plug itself is the same, as is the main charge wire. The alt I got only had the plug, main stud (charge cable to batt), and one other stud that was also positive - it didn't have an earth stud from memory.

Also, the Ford alternators came in a few different ones (100A, 110A, 120A if memory serves correct). When I did the wiring I think I put 120a or 150a to be on the safe side. I also left the original charge cable in place.

[dom14]

Well, I ended up earthing that wire to the chassis. The plug itself is the same, as is the main charge wire. The alt I got only had the plug, main stud (charge cable to batt), and one other stud that was also positive - it didn't have an earth stud from memory.

Also, the Ford alternators came in a few different ones (100A, 110A, 120A if memory serves correct). When I did the wiring I think I put 120a or 150a to be on the safe side. I also left the original charge cable in place.

You left the original charge cable as it was, but not connected to the battery or the alternator, right?

There's no stud for the Earth wire, you just need to use a small bolt(as in the stock one) to attach the earth wire to the alternator body. There're few holes at the back of the alternator to facilitate the earth wire. I'm using the original earth wire with the original lug & the bolt to attach it to the back of the alternator. As far as I can see, electrically it's not too much fiddling other than the new battery cable & the fuse.(Most of the fiddling was mechanical) Mine is a 110A one according to the label. I'm using 100A wire+fuse. I thought that's enough, 'cos it will charge only one battery at a time.

You said there'another stud that was also positive! What could that be? Mine only has one stud(B+ battery terminal), just like the stock alternator. It's obvious now the reason you got confused. Yours is slightly different. Mine is exactly the same as the stock one. I'm presuming the two wires goes to the plug(trigger and sense wires) are of the same orientation as in the stock alternator plug. If not, I would have to swap it over, but it won't cause any damage, as they are both positive wires. I'll find it when I wire it all up and run the engine. But, I reckon it's the same.

I think the extra positive stud at the back of your alternator is probably the "F" terminal, which is the regulator full field bypass, which is not required for Patrol alternator setup.
You mistook that for the earth wire. Fair enough. :)

[threedogs]

Do you know anyone with a proper parts washer ??
Maybe a 4x4 shop will let you use theirs
I fitted a ford bosch alternator to my other 4x4
sick of paying $100 for recifiers, plus the bosch was an enclosed style.
Not a squirrel cage style like modern ones [open]

[Cuppa]

Check your yellow pages & phone the local motor re-winders. They’d have to be dealing with grimy coils daily so I’m sure could advise.

[dom14]

Check your yellow pages & phone the local motor re-winders. They’d have to be dealing with grimy coils daily so I’m sure could advise.

Yeah, quite a few auto sparkys around here. I don't think they would mind giving away a tip or two.

[dom14]

Do you know anyone with a proper parts washer ??
Maybe a 4x4 shop will let you use theirs
I fitted a ford bosch alternator to my other 4x4
sick of paying $100 for recifiers, plus the bosch was an enclosed style.
Not a squirrel cage style like modern ones [open]

Yeah, all the modern bosch ones are usually enclosed(I mean internal regulator) ones. Funnily enough, I still prefer external regulator setup even though they are not around anymore.
They go forever,without having to replace them every few years. I think they switched to the internal ones knowing it will shorten the lifespan of the internal
electronics, probably for the safety. Alternators can put out a fair bit AC voltage out from what I hear.
Modern alternators are good when the internal cooling fans are able to cool the internals.
When the grime build up over time, it doesn't help, as in my case.

I think I go with hot detergent water bath. Safest and the cheapest method by the looks of it, but obviously not the quickest, which is no problem for me, 'cos I'm planning to live forever. :)

[Throbbinhood]

You left the original charge cable as it was, but not connected to the battery or the alternator, right?

There's no stud for the Earth wire, you just need to use a small bolt(as in the stock one) to attach the earth wire to the alternator body. There're few holes at the back of the alternator to facilitate the earth wire. I'm using the original earth wire with the original lug & the bolt to attach it to the back of the alternator. As far as I can see, electrically it's not too much fiddling other than the new battery cable & the fuse.(Most of the fiddling was mechanical) Mine is a 110A one according to the label. I'm using 100A wire+fuse. I thought that's enough, 'cos it will charge only one battery at a time.

You said there'another stud that was also positive! What could that be? Mine only has one stud(B+ battery terminal), just like the stock alternator. It's obvious now the reason you got confused. Yours is slightly different. Mine is exactly the same as the stock one. I'm presuming the two wires goes to the plug(trigger and sense wires) are of the same orientation as in the stock alternator plug. If not, I would have to swap it over, but it won't cause any damage, as they are both positive wires. I'll find it when I wire it all up and run the engine. But, I reckon it's the same.

I think the extra positive stud at the back of your alternator is probably the "F" terminal, which is the regulator full field bypass, which is not required for Patrol alternator setup.
You mistook that for the earth wire. Fair enough. :)

The original cable is connected to both the alternator and the battery. I also have the 'heavier' cable also connected between the two.

Sounds like my alt is a little different to yours. Was all good in the end, nothing that couldn't be fixed.

The plugs just plug straight in - on mine anyway.

[dom14]

The original cable is connected to both the alternator and the battery. I also have the 'heavier' cable also connected between the two.

Sounds like my alt is a little different to yours. Was all good in the end, nothing that couldn't be fixed.

The plugs just plug straight in - on mine anyway.

Yeah, it appears it is. Electrically, mine is a straight swap. Mechanically, it was a bit of PITA, but was good experience for metal works. :)

If you original battery cable is still connected to the alternator, then your 100+ amp fuse doesn't serve the desired purpose for that amp range.

BTW, I've been trying to get hold of 100amp fuse with a holder, and apparently they don't exist. Jaycar, Autobarn, etc don't have it.
60 amp is as high as they go, and that's for audio applications, which is also good for anything else.

Where did you buy that fuse & holder?!

I'm beginning to think it may be an overkill after all, 'cos battery won't draw that many amps even in boost stage, and
we won't be charging two batteries simultaneously via the alternator. I can most certainly use two 60 amp fuses in parallel, but now I'm not
sure whether that's necessary at all. I reckon 60 amp is more than enough.

[Throbbinhood]

If you original battery cable is still connected to the alternator, then your 100+ amp fuse doesn't serve the desired purpose for that amp range.
Why do you say that? Original battery cable is fused accordingly. Fuse on the bigger cable is fused according to cable capacity (100a for 100a). Having both just means I spread the load across the two cables, but worst case the fuse on the original cable goes, the bigger cable will still be fine with the load.
BTW, I've been trying to get hold of 100amp fuse with a holder, and apparently they don't exist. Jaycar, Autobarn, etc don't have it.
60 amp is as high as they go, and that's for audio applications, which is also good for anything else.

Where did you buy that fuse & holder?!
Pretty sure it came from Jaycar or Supercheap.
I used something like this (http://www.jaycar.com.au/Sight-%26-Sound-Car/Car-Audio-Hardware/Car-Hardware-Accessories/ANL-In-line-Fuse-Holder/p/SZ2078) for the holder (but waterproof equiv) and one of these (http://www.jaycar.com.au/Sight-%26-Sound-Car/Car-Audio-Hardware/Car-Hardware-Accessories/Gold-AML-Wafer-Fuses-100-AMP/p/SF1992) fuses (to suit my cable)
.
..........

[Robo]

Just give the armature a good clean with a water based degreaser.
Then a liberal spray of contact cleaner or electronics cleaner.
you can scrub most parts with a plastic parts wash/scrub brush, or an old tooth brush.
Been there done that, and a few times now with no problems.

[dom14]

Cool, thanx, mate.
Jaycar had both, but didn't have it 100 amp range.
Autobarn had the 100 amp fuse as in your link, but no holder to suit.
They are available, but both stores near me are out of stock, by the looks of it.

As far as I understand, when you spread the load, electricity finds the easiest path to pass through.
When you think of electricity as flow of electrons, it kinda makes sense to me.
So, I think the 60 amp fuse won't blow 'cos the easier 100 amp path is available. So the current pass through the higher amp cable is higher than the lower amp cable.
Then when the load gets to 100 amp, the 100 amp fuse won't blow
'cos of the redundant 60 amp path. Fuses are fine tuned to resist the amps above that range. When electricity finds resistance, it tries to find an easier
path. And in your case there is a one. So effectively the amps get shared and they both may not do what they're meant for the set fuse amp range on each.
So effectively you are creating a single fuse that is more than 100 amp, more like 160 amp or somewhere between 100 and 160 amp.
I might be wrong about this. I wait for a sparky or electrician to correct me. Or you might be able to correct me as well.

[dom14]

Just give the armature a good clean with a water based degreaser.
Then a liberal spray of contact cleaner or electronics cleaner.
you can scrub most parts with a plastic parts wash/scrub brush, or an old tooth brush.
Been there done that, and a few times now with no problems.

Cool, thanx mate. It's nothing like hearing from experience.
I'll buy a contact cleaner in that case, so I can keep it for other stuff as well.
My tightarse started closing even tighter & worry when I thought I had to buy a $25 cleaner spray can to find it's not enough for the job. :D
Cheers.

[Throbbinhood]

Cool, thanx, mate.
Jaycar had both, but didn't have it 100 amp range.
Autobarn had the 100 amp fuse as in your link, but no holder to suit.
They are available, but both stores near me are out of stock, by the looks of it.

As far as I understand, when you spread the load, electricity finds the easiest path to pass through.
When you think of electricity as flow of electrons, it kinda makes sense to me.
So, I think the 60 amp fuse won't blow 'cos the easier 100 amp path is available. So the current pass through the higher amp cable is higher than the lower amp cable.
Then when the load gets to 100 amp, the 100 amp fuse won't blow
'cos of the redundant 60 amp path. Fuses are fine tuned to resist the amps above that range. When electricity finds resistance, it tries to find an easier
path. And in your case there is a one. So effectively the amps get shared and they both may not do what they're meant for the set fuse amp range on each.
So effectively you are creating a single fuse that is more than 100 amp, more like 160 amp or somewhere between 100 and 160 amp.
I might be wrong about this. I wait for a sparky or electrician to correct me. Or you might be able to correct me as well.

Well, the fuse is there to protect those wires in particular... That energy isn't getting pushed through other bits of cabling.. Effectively, yes, I could have 160A of current passing through both cables provided the 60a fuse doesn't blow - but my alt won't put out that much anyway. Alt puts out 110-120A, pretty sure I've got 150A cable in there, as well as the original 60A or whatever it's rated at. Aside from which, as you said, electricity follows the path of least resistance - I dare say the majority of the current will be flowing through the larger wire anyway.

[Robo]

Well, the fuse is there to protect those wires in particular... That energy isn't getting pushed through other bits of cabling.. Effectively, yes, I could have 160A of current passing through both cables provided the 60a fuse doesn't blow - but my alt won't put out that much anyway. Alt puts out 110-120A, pretty sure I've got 150A cable in there, as well as the original 60A or whatever it's rated at. Aside from which, as you said, electricity follows the path of least resistance - I dare say the majority of the current will be flowing through the larger wire anyway.

For the Novices thinking of using 2x smaller capacity cables to double the wire capacity!.
What happens when one fuse trips and all the current is forced threw the other cable.
don't wish to hear about that issue.

[dom14]

Well, the fuse is there to protect those wires in particular... That energy isn't getting pushed through other bits of cabling.. Effectively, yes, I could have 160A of current passing through both cables provided the 60a fuse doesn't blow - but my alt won't put out that much anyway. Alt puts out 110-120A, pretty sure I've got 150A cable in there, as well as the original 60A or whatever it's rated at. Aside from which, as you said, electricity follows the path of least resistance - I dare say the majority of the current will be flowing through the larger wire anyway.

Yep, it won't be a problem. When the load gets to around 160 amps or so the fuses will blow, but not likely to happen, 'cos it won't draw that many amps.
Ideally, 100 amp alternator should have no higher than 100 amp fuse for the battery wire.
But, as I understand, the chance of any mishap by installing a 150 amp fuse in this case is probably not that high.
The fuse is there obviously to protect the alternator & the battery from short circuiting and any fire hazard.
If the fuse doesn't blow when the short circuit is 100 amp, it will blow when it's 150 amp.
Whether that 50 amp difference will damage the regulator is another thing, which I'm not too sure.
That's why I'm not too keen to install fuses above 100 amp.
However, chances of short circuiting a properly wired alternator battery wire is quite slim.
In an event of under bonnet fire or accident, it can happen. But, 100 amp or 150 amp, the fuse will eventually blow.
I reckon in such events, the well being of the alternator regulator or the battery would be last of your concerns. :)

BTW, one of the wires goes to the socket is a white wire, which is the sense wire. The other one is white with a red stripe which is the trigger wire.
I've been told the white wire joins the battery wire only few centimeters down the wire harness.
If you cut the white wire before that and directly connect it to the battery positive, it will give the regulator a better reading of the battery charge status and it charges better for about a half a volt higher, which effectively fully charges the battery as well as extend it's life. Factory way of joining them together near the alternator apparently gives the regulator a slightly false reading of the charge status. White wire only needs 3 or 5 amp fuse and 3 or 4mm wire as apparently very little current passes through it.
I'm doing that modification as well.

I'm setting up the battery wires the same as you. I already have a 60 amp fuse & wire which I bought last year for something else. And I won't need a 10mm thick wire for the alternator battery wire. So, I'll be leaving the original battery wire & fuse as it is, which is 30 amp and adding a new one which is 60 amp. So, combined I will have a 90 amp fuse, which is enough to handle the alternator output.
Even though I didn't plan to, I'm wiring my wires just like yours :)

[dom14]

For the Novices thinking of using 2x smaller capacity cables to double the wire capacity!.
What happens when one fuse trips and all the current is forced threw the other cable.
don't wish to hear about that issue.

The other cable should have a fuse as well, so that fuse would also blow. Both fuses blow pretty much at the same time. When one blows, the other one
is bound to immediately follow it.
I'm wiring my upgraded alternator & wiring just like that, rather than using a super thick 10mm high amp wire, which is way too thick to wire under the bonnet with lugs. Besides factory wiring of these high amp alternators don't use super thick single wires. I think that's probably it's not necessary for the wire to match the max output of the alternator. I don't think most batteries are capable of drawing 100 amp or more from a high amp alternator, even when the battery charge is pretty low. I think some of the excess amps put out by the alternator are used by the power hungry appliances inside the vehicle.

[Throbbinhood]

BTW, one of the wires goes to the socket is a white wire, which is the sense wire. The other one is white with a red stripe which is the trigger wire.
I've been told the white wire joins the battery wire only few centimeters down the wire harness.
If you cut the white wire before that and directly connect it to the battery positive, it will give the regulator a better reading of the battery charge status and it charges better for about a half a volt higher, which effectively fully charges the battery as well as extend it's life. Factory way of joining them together near the alternator apparently gives the regulator a slightly false reading of the charge status. White wire only needs 3 or 5 amp fuse and 3 or 4mm wire as apparently very little current passes through it.
I'm doing that modification as well.


I had read this elsewhere but forgot all about it. Might do it as well. Would be interesting to see the difference in output before/after. Any idea of the size of the original wire? Might pickup a length of the same on my way home and a few lugs and do the mod when I get home.

[dom14]

I had read this elsewhere but forgot all about it. Might do it as well. Would be interesting to see the difference in output before/after. Any idea of the size of the original wire? Might pickup a length of the same on my way home and a few lugs and do the mod when I get home.

Size of the original white sense wire is 4-5mm(diameter with insulation) or 6 AWG(american wire gauge), then it joins the battery wire only few centimeters from the alternator rear.
But, I was told original white sense wire doesn't carry much amps. It's there to give the regulator the status of the battery charge, so it can increase current goes to thebattery wire accordingly.
So, you don't need to use a thick high amp wires like you use for battery wire from the alternator.
You can use a 4mm diameter(6 AWG) wire & 3-5 amp fuse along with it. So, it will be dirt cheap modification, but the result is great according to what I've heard so far.

Did you realize that your idea of leaving the original battery wire connected as it originally was the right thing to do anyway??!!

Because, if you disconnect it from the battery end, you are effectively disconnecting the white sense wire as well.

That means no sense wire goes into the regulator, which means no voltage to the regulator sense pin. Outcome is the regulator "decides" the battery is dead
and puts out the maximum amount of current. The result will be either the windings, regulator, rectifier or the battery(or the electrical components of the vehicle) will be ruined in no time, whichever happens first.
But, if you disconnect the original battery wire from the alternator end(and leave the battery end connected) then it won't disconnect the white sense wire.
A good example of why we should understand the way things were wired originally, before going about fiddling with it.

Hence, your approach of leaving the original wiring as it was, is the right thing to do, unless we know what we are doing.

I was originally planning to do it the 'right' way by disconnecting the original battery wire from alternator end only. But, it's too easy to get these things mixed up
and stuff up the battery or the alternator or electrical components in the vehicle. So, this conversation with you has been really helpful for me. I'm sure it's been the same for you.

I will update with you with the outcome of the alternator upgrade as well as the sense wire modification, soon.

Cheers

[Throbbinhood]

Size of the original white sense wire is 4-5mm(diameter with insulation) or 6 AWG(american wire gauge), then it joins the battery wire only few centimeters from the alternator rear.
But, I was told original white sense wire doesn't carry much amps. It's there to give the regulator the status of the battery charge, so it can increase current goes to thebattery wire accordingly.
So, you don't need to use a thick high amp wires like you use for battery wire from the alternator.
You can use a 4mm diameter(6 AWG) wire & 3-5 amp fuse along with it. So, it will be dirt cheap modification, but the result is great according to what I've heard so far.

Isn't 6AWG huge for this? If I remember correctly, those wires were pretty small - though my memory may be hazy. 6AWG according to jaycar is rated to 70ish amps?
I could maybe see the charge wire being this size, but not the sense wire?

[Robo]

This is a case of Size does matter !!.

The novice scenario was to make some stop and think, & not use any old wire thinking, that looks big enough.

[Throbbinhood]

This is a case of Size does matter !!.

The novice scenario was to make some stop and think, & not use any old wire thinking, that looks big enough.
.....What?

[dom14]

Isn't 6AWG huge for this? If I remember correctly, those wires were pretty small - though my memory may be hazy. 6AWG according to jaycar is rated to 70ish amps?
I could maybe see the charge wire being this size, but not the sense wire?

In mine, both are roughly the same size, I think that 'cos they join each other in the wire harness by few centimeters.

According to AWG chart, 6 AWG is 4.115mm diameter. But, that may be without insulation, so I can be wrong about that.
Ampacity is rated 55-75, but that would depend on the number of strands and other factors as well.

I would say, go by the thickness, 'cos ampacity of the wire is not a critical factor for the sense(white) wire, according what I've been told.

4mm is including the insulation, so the thickness of the insulation comes into action as well.

Or if you're pretty keen go 6 AWG as it says in Jaycar charts. The fuse doesn't need to be anymore than 3-5amp, according to what I've been told.
Or use the same wire thickness/gauge as in the original white sense wire. I think that's what I'm going to do.

I'm not too sure about the requirement of the fuse though.
If the fuse blows, the alternator would still work but the sense wire on the regulator would get zero voltage wrong reading, and boost the alternator output mistakenly,
although the chances of that fuse blowing is very slim.
I'll consult someone and get back to you about that.

[dom14]

This is a case of Size does matter !!.

The novice scenario was to make some stop and think, & not use any old wire thinking, that looks big enough.

Sure!
But, 10mm thick wire???!!!!!
Even 150 amp alternators tend not to use charge wires that thick.
High amp wires for sure, but least thickness is preferred.
Have a look at the thickness of the starter motor B+ wire?
I don't think there's any need for alternator B+ wire to be that thick.
Alternator may be 1000 amp one. But, the battery won't be able to use anywhere near that.
The charge builds up gradually inside the battery via a chemical reaction which takes bit of time.
So, we can install a 1000 amp alternator, but it won't be any use for the battery.

A battery charges at the speed of a nuclear fusion?!!! Then I would consider an alternator of super 1000 amp output. :D ;)

[Winnie]

Sure!
But, 10mm thick wire???!!!!!
Even 150 amp alternators tend not to use charge wires that thick.
High amp wires for sure, but least thickness is preferred.
Have a look at the thickness of the starter motor B+ wire?
I don't think there's any need for alternator B+ wire to be that thick.
Alternator may be 1000 amp one. But, the battery won't be able to use anywhere near that.
The charge builds up gradually inside the battery via a chemical reaction which takes bit of time.
So, we can install a 1000 amp alternator, but it won't be any use for the battery.

A battery charges at the speed of a nuclear fusion?!!! Then I would consider an alternator of super 1000 amp output. :D ;)
When cable is measured in mm it is the cross sectional area of the copper in mm squared.
When I upgraded to a 120A alternator I ran an extra 16mm cable from the alternator to the battery. When winching it would blow the vehicle main fuse otherwise.

[dom14]

When cable is measured in mm it is the cross sectional area of the copper in mm squared.
When I upgraded to a 120A alternator I ran an extra 16mm cable from the alternator to the battery. When winching it would blow the vehicle main fuse otherwise.

So, it's 16 square millimeters cross sectional area of the copper wire excluding insulation?

That comes to 4.5 mm diameter of the wire, excluding insulation.

That sounds ok. The wire that I'm using for the alternator charge wire is about that thick, rated around 70 amp.

[Winnie]

So, it's 16 square millimeters cross sectional area of the copper wire excluding insulation?

That comes to 4.5 mm diameter of the wire, excluding insulation.

That sounds ok. The wire that I'm using for the alternator charge wire is about that thick, rated around 70 amp.

It's hard to rate cable by amperage as it depends on a lot of things... The cable I've used is the proper stuff, double insulated flexible SDI, or Welding flex

[dom14]

It's hard to rate cable by amperage as it depends on a lot of things... The cable I've used is the proper stuff, double insulated flexible SDI, or Welding flex

Yeah, of course. Lot of other factors go into the ampicity rating of the wire. I was shown a comparatively thin wire that could handle 100 amp or so, long time ago. I forgot what was it made of. In my alternator upgrade setup, I'll be using both factory alternator charge wire/fuse as well as the new 70 amp rated wire/fuse. So, I should be fine.

[the evil twin]

snip... I think that's probably it's not necessary for the wire to match the max output of the alternator. I don't think most batteries are capable of drawing 100 amp or more from a high amp alternator, even when the battery charge is pretty low. I think some of the excess amps put out by the alternator are used by the power hungry appliances inside the vehicle.

If the load doesn't max out the Alternator why bother putting in a bigger Alternator?

The Alternator load isn't just the battery charging current.
The load will be all the lighting, accessories, engine management PLUS the battery charge current.
IE the Alternator will feed all the load until the load is so great the Alternator can no longer maintain 13.8 or more at max output.
The battery won't even start to load share until the Alternator Voltage is dragged down to below approx 13 volts ish (the ish depends on many factors).
Alternator max output is governed by it's RPM so you could have a fully charged battery and still pull maximum regulated current out of an Alternator with not a single ampere going into the battery circuit.

If you wish to use sperate cables that is fine.
After all any multi strand conductor is exactly that, multiple cables inside one jacket.
It is not ideal to fuse them seperately IE two 50 amp fuses does not equal a single 100 amp fuse unless the impedance path thru both cables is identical.

[dom14]

I
I'm not too sure about the requirement of the fuse though.
If the fuse blows, the alternator would still work but the sense wire on the regulator would get zero voltage wrong reading, and boost the alternator output mistakenly,
although the chances of that fuse blowing is very slim.
I'll consult someone and get back to you about that.

The fuse is necessary. Even though if the fuse blows the alternator can end up putting out 15V+ .

There's another thing we can do. That is to leave the sense wire & charge wire junction connection intact and still create the new direct bypass to the battery.
In that way, the original sense wire path is still there, even though the new sense wire fuse blows.

[Yendor]

The fuse is necessary. Even though if the fuse blows the alternator can end up putting out 15V+ .

There's another thing we can do. That is to leave the sense wire & charge wire junction connection intact and still create the new direct bypass to the battery.



A 50-50 mix of kero and water is fine to clean inside the alternator. Just wash it out with water once clean and dry thoroughly.

TBH I can't be bothered to read the 3 pages. So what fuse are you talking about?. From memory you know what happens when the main alternator fuse on a GQ blows (or a bad connection at the fuse).

If you've added a fuse in the alternator sense circuit and this fuse blows the battery with over charge.

[the evil twin]

snip...
TBH I can't be bothered to read the 3 pages.

Personally, I think you wouldn't regret making the effort...

(not having a shot at anyone, just saying the thread explores some interesting concepts)

[the evil twin]

The fuse is necessary. Even though if the fuse blows the alternator can end up putting out 15V+ .

There's another thing we can do. That is to leave the sense wire & charge wire junction connection intact and still create the new direct bypass to the battery.
In that way, the original sense wire path is still there, even though the new sense wire fuse blows.

So you would end up with two wires that originate in the same place and end in the same place and one is fused and one isn't.

Why would you want to do that?

[Throbbinhood]

For what it's worth, I did the mod tonight. Should have spent more time getting voltage measurements before I did it, particularly after 10m or so (as I believe alt output lessens after initial few mins). As I didn't, my initial output is around the 14.3-14.4 mark. With all my lights/light bars etc on, it reads 14.26. These figures are same at idle as at 2k rpm. One thing I have noticed is voltage is more stable, was previously jumping between 13.8-14.4 depending on rpm/load, now it stayed above 14.2 for the few minutes it was on, with and without load and varying rpm.

[dom14]

A 50-50 mix of kero and water is fine to clean inside the alternator. Just wash it out with water once clean and dry thoroughly.

TBH I can't be bothered to read the 3 pages. So what fuse are you talking about?. From memory you know what happens when the main alternator fuse on a GQ blows (or a bad connection at the fuse).

If you've added a fuse in the alternator sense circuit and this fuse blows the battery with over charge.

Hi Rodney,
That was last year when the alternator charge wired deteriorated. Since the alt charge wire and the sense wire is joined near the alternator, it caused the alternator to put out 15+ volts.
With your help I did resolve it. Now, I'm onto something bigger. Upgrading the alternator and also modifying/tweaking the sense wire to battery connection(By creating a new line for sense wire pin to the battery with a fuse. We've been talking about how to get it right, having to upgrade the alternator to battery wire, etc etc.

[dom14]

For what it's worth, I did the mod tonight. Should have spent more time getting voltage measurements before I did it, particularly after 10m or so (as I believe alt output lessens after initial few mins). As I didn't, my initial output is around the 14.3-14.4 mark. With all my lights/light bars etc on, it reads 14.26. These figures are same at idle as at 2k rpm. One thing I have noticed is voltage is more stable, was previously jumping between 13.8-14.4 depending on rpm/load, now it stayed above 14.2 for the few minutes it was on, with and without load and varying rpm.

Ok, cool. Sounds like the mod is working, right?

[dom14]

So you would end up with two wires that originate in the same place and end in the same place and one is fused and one isn't.

Why would you want to do that?

Both are fused. The idea is that the factory way of joining the alternator B+ wire and sense wire just few centimeters from the alternator gives false reading to the regulator about the battery charge status. When we disconnect that joint(sense wire) and wire a new wire from sense wire to the battery directly regulator get a better reading from the battery and charge the battery half a volt or so, effectively charging the battery better and expand the lifespan of the battery. That's the tip I was given.
The downside is that when we disconnect the sense wire/charge wire connection and create a dedicated battery to sense wire connection (with a fuse), can have an issue when(or if rather) the fuse blows. When that happens the regulator sense wire pin gets zero volts from the battery and "decides" the battery is flat and puts out the maximum output from the alternator(which means 15+ volts). That's obviously not a good thing for the components of the vehicle electrical system(I know that from first hand experience last year. :) )

My new idea is to do the sense wire mod by creating a bypass from sense wire near the alternator to the battery(with a fuse), instead of cutting the connection between the sense wire and the alternator battery wire. I'm just being told that would defeat the purpose of the above modification.

[dom14]

A 50-50 mix of kero and water is fine to clean inside the alternator. Just wash it out with water once clean and dry thoroughly.

TBH I can't be bothered to read the 3 pages. So what fuse are you talking about?. From memory you know what happens when the main alternator fuse on a GQ blows (or a bad connection at the fuse).

If you've added a fuse in the alternator sense circuit and this fuse blows the battery with over charge.

The idea is that the factory way of joining the alternator B+ wire and sense wire just few centimeters from the alternator gives false reading to the regulator about the battery charge status. When we disconnect that joint(sense wire) and wire a new wire from sense wire to the battery directly regulator get a better reading from the battery and charge the battery half a volt or so, effectively charging the battery better and expand the lifespan of the battery. That's the tip I was given.
The downside is that when we disconnect the sense wire/charge wire connection and create a dedicated battery to sense wire connection (with a fuse), can have an issue when(or if rather) the fuse blows. When that happens the regulator sense wire pin gets zero volts from the battery and "decides" the battery is flat and puts out the maximum output from the alternator(which means 15+ volts). That's obviously not a good thing for the components of the vehicle electrical system(I know that from first hand experience last year. :) )

My new idea is to do the sense wire mod by creating a bypass from sense wire near the alternator to the battery(with a fuse), instead of cutting the connection between the sense wire and the alternator battery wire. I'm just being told that would defeat the purpose of the above modification.

So, Rodney, what is your opinion about this mod?! If you're thinking we're chasing a wild goose by doing the above(sense wire mod), please do tell. :D

[dom14]

For what it's worth, I did the mod tonight. Should have spent more time getting voltage measurements before I did it, particularly after 10m or so (as I believe alt output lessens after initial few mins). As I didn't, my initial output is around the 14.3-14.4 mark. With all my lights/light bars etc on, it reads 14.26. These figures are same at idle as at 2k rpm. One thing I have noticed is voltage is more stable, was previously jumping between 13.8-14.4 depending on rpm/load, now it stayed above 14.2 for the few minutes it was on, with and without load and varying rpm.

Did you cut the sense wire, so there's no connection from sense wire to battery charge wire?

or did you just create a bypass?

If you cut the wire, make sure to insulate the open end of the cut wire 'cos in your setup(and mine)it's connected to the charge wire and has +12V high amp.

[dom14]

If the load doesn't max out the Alternator why bother putting in a bigger Alternator?

The Alternator load isn't just the battery charging current.
The load will be all the lighting, accessories, engine management PLUS the battery charge current.
IE the Alternator will feed all the load until the load is so great the Alternator can no longer maintain 13.8 or more at max output.
The battery won't even start to load share until the Alternator Voltage is dragged down to below approx 13 volts ish (the ish depends on many factors).



Alternator max output is governed by it's RPM so you could have a fully charged battery and still pull maximum regulated current out of an Alternator with not a single ampere going into the battery circuit.

What would be pulling that maximum regulated amp out of the alternator? If not the battery, then it must be something else.
Blower fan, ECU, lights, etc etc combined?
Can all these components(excluding the battery) draw in excess of 100A from the alternator charge wire??!!!


If you wish to use sperate cables that is fine.
After all any multi strand conductor is exactly that, multiple cables inside one jacket.
It is not ideal to fuse them seperately IE two 50 amp fuses does not equal a single 100 amp fuse unless the impedance path thru both cables is identical.

Yes, of course. That was only a rough estimate. I'm pretty sure I indicated that in my post.
Two cables are obviously not identical, so they carry different impedance(or resistance rather since we are talking about DC current here) ratings, so I would place the fuse according to each wire's maximum ampacity rating.
For our(my) needs a rough estimation is enough.
It is not ideal, but I think it will do the job. It's better to use the original alternator charge cable+fuse, while adding a new charge cable+fuse for the upgraded higher amp alternator. One good reason for that is that the sense wire & battery charge wire joins only few centimeters from the alternator down the wire harness. So, disconnecting the old battery charge wire from the alternator and adding a brand new one will bring disastrous results 'cos of the inadvertently disconnected sense wire, which will cause the alternator regulator to falsely assess the battery as zero voltage and put out the maximum alternator voltage output(15+ volts) I'm sure once we know that we can simply connect the sense wire to the new battery charge wire. But, it's kinda makes sense to me to use the old charge wire, rather than disconnecting it.

Why not use/leave alone something that was already there and can function as a reliable backup in case the new wire meets a mishap?

[Yendor]

The idea is that the factory way of joining the alternator B+ wire and sense wire just few centimeters from the alternator gives false reading to the regulator about the battery charge status. When we disconnect that joint(sense wire) and wire a new wire from sense wire to the battery directly regulator get a better reading from the battery and charge the battery half a volt or so, effectively charging the battery better and expand the lifespan of the battery. That's the tip I was given.
The downside is that when we disconnect the sense wire/charge wire connection and create a dedicated battery to sense wire connection (with a fuse), can have an issue when(or if rather) the fuse blows. When that happens the regulator sense wire pin gets zero volts from the battery and "decides" the battery is flat and puts out the maximum output from the alternator(which means 15+ volts). That's obviously not a good thing for the components of the vehicle electrical system(I know that from first hand experience last year. :) )D


I take it you have been reading IAFNAN thread… The mod is good. It can help overcome minor voltage drop between the alternator and battery by raising the alternator output voltage. The GUs are wired this way.

You seem a bit paranoid about this fuse blowing. Just make sure the wire is run in a way so it doesn't rub on anything and is in conduit.



My new idea is to do the sense wire mod by creating a bypass from sense wire near the alternator to the battery(with a fuse), instead of cutting the connection between the sense wire and the alternator battery wire. I'm just being told that would defeat the purpose of the above modification.

So, Rodney, what is your opinion about this mod?! If you're thinking we're chasing a wild goose by doing the above(sense wire mod), please do tell. :D

Doing it this way you are running a parallel charge circuit with the original main cable between the alternator and battery. This means that the battery will also receive charge along this bypass wire that you have run.

You need to disconnect the original sense wire from the main cable.

[Throbbinhood]

Did you cut the sense wire, so there's no connection from sense wire to battery charge wire?

or did you just create a bypass?

If you cut the wire, make sure to insulate the open end of the cut wire 'cos in your setup(and mine)it's connected to the charge wire and has +12V high amp.

Hey mate, yeah - I cut the sense wire about 2cm from the plug. I originally cut further up, I figured that the join was further up - it isn't - I'd cut the original charge wire.. Oops! Lucky I had some spare terminals to rejoin it. That said, even if it was disconnected my bigger charge wire will be up the job anyway. After fixing that up, I cut the proper wire and ran the cable straight to battery - and yeah, insulated the other end of the original sense wire. Both my batteries are topped up at the moment, so hard to say if it's bumped up the voltage, but like I said the voltage certainly seems more stable than previously.

Do you know if the original charge wire is fused/has a fusible link (and if so, where is it)? Just want to make sure that it's up to the job if anything goes wrong.

Also, winching would draw those sorts of amps - but I'm not entirely sure how that side of things works (otherwise everyone would be blowing charge lines when the winch tries to draw 400a). At a guess, everything draws from the battery rather than the alternator. The alternator just supplies the battery and attempts to keep it topped up. Just guessing though.

[Winnie]

Hey mate, yeah - I cut the sense wire about 2cm from the plug. I originally cut further up, I figured that the join was further up - it isn't - I'd cut the original charge wire.. Oops! Lucky I had some spare terminals to rejoin it. That said, even if it was disconnected my bigger charge wire will be up the job anyway. After fixing that up, I cut the proper wire and ran the cable straight to battery - and yeah, insulated the other end of the original sense wire. Both my batteries are topped up at the moment, so hard to say if it's bumped up the voltage, but like I said the voltage certainly seems more stable than previously.

Do you know if the original charge wire is fused/has a fusible link (and if so, where is it)? Just want to make sure that it's up to the job if anything goes wrong.

Also, winching would draw those sorts of amps - but I'm not entirely sure how that side of things works (otherwise everyone would be blowing charge lines when the winch tries to draw 400a). At a guess, everything draws from the battery rather than the alternator. The alternator just supplies the battery and attempts to keep it topped up. Just guessing though.

My understanding is it will pull whatever it can from the alternator, and if it needs more it will take it from the battery.

[dom14]

Hey mate, yeah - I cut the sense wire about 2cm from the plug. I originally cut further up, I figured that the join was further up - it isn't - I'd cut the original charge wire.. Oops! Lucky I had some spare terminals to rejoin it. That said, even if it was disconnected my bigger charge wire will be up the job anyway. After fixing that up, I cut the proper wire and ran the cable straight to battery - and yeah, insulated the other end of the original sense wire. Both my batteries are topped up at the moment, so hard to say if it's bumped up the voltage, but like I said the voltage certainly seems more stable than previously.

Do you know if the original charge wire is fused/has a fusible link (and if so, where is it)? Just want to make sure that it's up to the job if anything goes wrong.

Also, winching would draw those sorts of amps - but I'm not entirely sure how that side of things works (otherwise everyone would be blowing charge lines when the winch tries to draw 400a). At a guess, everything draws from the battery rather than the alternator. The alternator just supplies the battery and attempts to keep it topped up. Just guessing though.

Yeah, but during winch installation, we would add thick high amp wire connection from winch to the battery, wouldn't we? If the engine is running while winching(which usually is the case), then the winch can draw lot of amps via the alternator-battery charge line as well, since the alternator voltage out is slightly higher than the battery. I'm not sure this would put extra strain on the alternator charge wire and blow the fuse.

I wait for Rodney's advice on that.


Do you know if the original charge wire is fused/has a fusible link (and if so, where is it)?

Look fora thick white wire(or two) near the battery positive terminal and trace from there. The fuse should be on the white wire not too far from the
battery positive terminal.

[Robo]

Thread has gotten lost

[4bye4]

Thread has gotten lost
62765

[Throbbinhood]

Yeah, but during winch installation, we would add thick high amp wire connection from winch to the battery, wouldn't we? If the engine is running while winching(which usually is the case), then the winch can draw lot of amps via the alternator-battery charge line as well, since the alternator voltage out is slightly higher than the battery. I'm not sure this would put extra strain on the alternator charge wire and blow the fuse.


Hmm, it just occurred to me that the winch can only draw from the alternator what the alternator can supply, which in this case is 100ish A. It doesn't matter that the winch may be drawing 400a, as it will draw the remainder from the battery.

[dom14]

If the load doesn't max out the Alternator why bother putting in a bigger Alternator?

Yes, it's pretty valid question.
I thought we are upgrading the alternator to compensate for all the extra components+appliances we add to the vehicle electrical system, but didn't think we need a super thick(1 cm and above) alternator charge cable to compensate for the extra amps. One of the reasons for my argument was that no stock high amp alternators come equipped with such thick wires from what I've seen so far.

For example, EF-EL Falcon alternator that I used for the upgrade came from the Ford EF-EL. But, is the charge cable of that car as thick as the one we are trying to use in
Patrol??!! I tend to think that's not the case.
If you are right, then we have to argue EF-EL Falcons come equipped with an alternator which is an overkill for the car's electrical demands.

But, I agree, winching can produce a totally different scenario, and it may be correct that a thicker higher ampacity charge wire can come handy in such situations(as well as higher amp fuse).

[dom14]

Hmm, it just occurred to me that the winch can only draw from the alternator what the alternator can supply, which in this case is 100ish A. It doesn't matter that the winch may be drawing 400a, as it will draw the remainder from the battery.

Yes, that's absolutely correct. But, when the winch does draw the highest possible amps from the alternator(in our case 100 ampish), then we can argue, a thicker, higher amp(100+ ampacity) wire may be a requirement, depending on time length of the winch running recovery. Necessity of a higher amp fuse is obvious.

I think it would be great to hear from guys with practical experience in this scenario.

[dom14]

Thread has gotten lost
62765

Yes, the OP(which is me) was asking about the best way to clean a gunk filled alternator interior. That's been sorted.
We took it on a different direction, but it's a very good discussion. Lets keep it going. :)

[dom14]

Thread has gotten lost

Yes, but for a good cause, I reckon. We've already dealt with the alternator cleaning techniques.
Lets keep it going at current direction.
We're learning a lot from the conversation here.

[4bye4]

Only kidding around Dom. Interesting stuff coming up here - my head is totaly blown because I thought I knew this stuff.

[dom14]

My understanding is it will pull whatever it can from the alternator, and if it needs more it will take it from the battery.

May be not. Alternator doesn't produce anywhere near as much as amps a battery would in a given short time frame.
So, it's logical to say the most of the current the winch would use comes form the cranking battery.
Winching loves CCAs.. One guy used that phrase in a thread while ago. :)
Lets debate and sort out whether that high amp draw from winch would affect the alternator charge wire capacity and whether it would blow the fuse.

[dom14]

Only kidding around Dom. Interesting stuff coming up here - my head is totaly blown because I thought I knew this stuff.

You do. You're helping by writing whatever you think, whether it's a fact or conjecture.
I've been learning from everybody here, (including myself. :D )

[dom14]

May be not. Alternator doesn't produce anywhere near as much as amps a battery would in a given short time frame.
So, it's logical to say the most of the current the winch would use comes form the cranking battery.
Winching loves CCAs.. One guy used that phrase in a thread while ago. :)
Lets debate and sort out whether that high amp draw from winch would affect the alternator charge wire capacity and whether it would blow the fuse.

I would like to argue that it won't. After taking what it(winch) can from the alternator, it would switch to the battery and draw the amps from there.
Only scenario I can think of alternator charge cable fuse blowing is that when the charge cable is way too low ampacity rated than the highest alternator output(lets say 60 amp wire & fuse for a 120 amp alternator).

[Throbbinhood]

I would like to argue that it won't. After taking what it(winch) can from the alternator, it would switch to the battery and draw the amps from there.
Only scenario I can think of alternator charge cable fuse blowing is that when the charge cable is way too low ampacity rated than the highest alternator output(lets say 60 amp wire & fuse for a 120 amp alternator).

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

[dom14]

Yes, it's pretty valid question.
I thought we are upgrading the alternator to compensate for all the extra components+appliances we add to the vehicle electrical system, but didn't think we need a super thick(1 cm and above) alternator charge cable to compensate for the extra amps. One of the reasons for my argument was that no stock high amp alternators come equipped with such thick wires from what I've seen so far.

For example, EF-EL Falcon alternator that I used for the upgrade came from the Ford EF-EL. But, is the charge cable of that car as thick as the one we are trying to use in
Patrol??!! I tend to think that's not the case.
If you are right, then we have to argue EF-EL Falcons come equipped with an alternator which is an overkill for the car's electrical demands.

But, I agree, winching can produce a totally different scenario, and it may be correct that a thicker higher ampacity charge wire can come handy in such situations(as well as higher amp fuse).

Another thing that just came to my mind regarding the pretty valid question from the Evil Twin above is that a dual battery system may also demand a higher amp alternator to charge both batteries in good time.

I've been told that most dual battery systems out there actually isolates the cranking battery from getting drained accidentally
while using the aux battery for power needs. But, it doesn't isolate the main battery & aux battery during charging.

in other words in so called battery isolator doesn't prioritize the main battery charging before it switches to the aux battery. In other words both batteries get charged pretty much as the same rate, which means extra amps are drawn from the alternator, which may necessitate the higher amp capable charge cable+fuse from the alternator to the main battery.

[gaddy]

I must do something wrong ! I run a fridge (old engel ) charge phones , dvd players for the kids , charge the van battery , run lights and shower pump , 1oo amp alt cheap projector vsr , 90 amp deep cycle as a second battery and same in the van hooked up via anderson plug when towing , and can sit for to 4 days with out even getting close to killing batteries , and get around 5- 7 years battery life , i do plug into a cetec charger at home to keep them conditioned , no solar ,

Should add usually go for a drive most days for maybe 1hr all up ,

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[dom14]

I must do something wrong ! I run a fridge (old engel ) charge phones , dvd players for the kids , charge the van battery , run lights and shower pump , 1oo amp alt cheap projector vsr , 90 amp deep cycle as a second battery and same in the van hooked up via anderson plug when towing , and can sit for to 4 days with out even getting close to killing batteries , and get around 5- 7 years battery life , i do plug into a cetec charger at home to keep them conditioned , no solar ,

Should add usually go for a drive most days for maybe 1hr all up ,

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

You have two auxiliary batteries.
What do you use the batteries for while sitting for four days.
Are the appliances 12V or are you using an inverter for all of them?

[gaddy]

12v only , led lights only turned on when needed, cooking etc , i just like to keep it simple , bit like me !

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[dom14]

12v only , led lights only turned on when needed, cooking etc , i just like to keep it simple , bit like me !

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

That's the reason for the longevity of the aux batteries. LEDs don't consume lot of power. If you try to run the fridge for four days without charging the batteries they won't last anywhere near four days, hence the reason for the preference of solar as a backup.

[gaddy]

Fridge only runs off the car , half hour - hour drive each day , got told years ago by fridgies i worked with years ago remove the travel bag from the fridge , ( would you wear a jumper when its hot )1 cold beer out 1 hot beer in , sweet as

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[dom14]

I must do something wrong ! I run a fridge (old engel ) charge phones , dvd players for the kids , charge the van battery , run lights and shower pump , 1oo amp alt cheap projector vsr , 90 amp deep cycle as a second battery and same in the van hooked up via anderson plug when towing , and can sit for to 4 days with out even getting close to killing batteries , and get around 5- 7 years battery life , i do plug into a cetec charger at home to keep them conditioned , no solar ,

Should add usually go for a drive most days for maybe 1hr all up ,


Sorry to break the news to you, but you're doing everything right. :D

[gaddy]

For what it's worth spent 3 and a half days at birdsville in September, only time the car moved was to spend a sun set on big red maybe 1.5 hrs drive time , no dramas at all , put a hot ctn of beer and a slab of bundy cans through the fridge as well :)

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[dom14]

For what it's worth spent 3 and a half days at birdsville in September, only time the car moved was to spend a sun set on big red maybe 1.5 hrs drive time , no dramas at all , put a hot ctn of beer and a slab of bundy cans through the fridge as well :)


What was the midday temperature in Birdsville when you were there in September? Mild or hot?

[gaddy]

Low 30s

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