Body Roll GU Patrol Wagon

[gremlin]

gday guys... long time reader on the forums, just never needed to post (as there is already so much info here!) .. till now

need some assistance with my 1998 gu wagon... its quite heavy at 2.98ton weighed last week.. it has roof rack with a solar panel and tent permanently living up there, front and rear steel bars, fridge + slide, dual battery, rock sliders, brush guards and winch.

I'm trying to get it to behave itself on road.. I have swapped out suspension a couple of weeks ago with straight rate Dobinson's coils .. 350lb rears, 320lb fronts and is sitting at 3" lift. The shocks are brand dobinsons rem res shocks which replaced a set of ironman foamcells in hope of better handling..

I have run factory front and rear swaybars but have now upgraded to superior superflex front and rear swaybars.

I have hybrid superflex arms in there (which may not be helping?).

the body roll, to me, seems crazy.. I installed a pitch and roll meter on my phone and strapped it to the dash and zero'd it out... I put it through a slow but hard corner and got the gauge read 40degress! and it definitely feels that way.. surely this is to much and isn't safe? I get no tyre noise whatsoever during cornering so it doesn't seem to be loosing traction or show any hints of the getting out of control chassis wise but the body leaning to that angle cant be right? what's too far? does anyone have any figures to share?

any suggestions how to control this thing up? I believe the coils are higher rate than most and usually sold as a heavy duty.. should I be looking to up them further? should I look at getting the shocks valved harder? would some whiteline heavy duty swaybars help?

cheers for any help

[TimE]

Remove the roof rack! High centre of gravity = body roll.

[threedogs]

X 2 with timE your geometry is all over the shop, in an ideal world the Centre of gravity[CoG]
should be level with the floor . But its not a perfect world Im afraid.
Anytime up top including your roof rack will raise your CoG, not a good thing.
I'd remove the rack and RTT untill you need them.

[gremlin]

appreciate the replys guys

just need to clarify its not a roof top tent.. its an oztent that lives up there.. 20kgs the tent weighs in at... solar panel is 15kg.. and the rhino roof basket is there too but not sure what they weigh.. 25kg or something the aluminum full length basket?

just trying to add it up.. 60ish kgs on top of a 3ton car is no good??

problem ive got is the oztent doesnt fit inside the car, its 2.4m long... and i like my solar panel for my dual batteries :)

but.. if taking all that off is going to make the patrol not lean over 40degress during corners i guess i can redesign everything with no roof rack..a new tent that fits inside the wagon and a solar panel that folds out... it is doable..

what do other patrols and cruisers with roof racks drive like i wonder?

[MudRunnerTD]

Nah there is something else wrong if its an Oztent mate. I have an Oztent and have no real trouble.

I think your springs are wrong and your shocks may be valved badly.

What size swayers did you fit? what diameter?

Do you have drop boxes up front?

How fast were you going when you pulled 40d? i don't think that would be accurate though to be honest mate or it would be already having a lie down. You'd be bouncing off your bump stops and it would be messy as hell.

Worth taking off your roof load just to clear up that that is not your issue. seems the rest of your setup is not right to me though.

I have a GUIV with a 3" lift and Drop Boxes running Old Man Emu Comp spec springs and shocks. 150,000kms on them with multiple desert crossings all with a OzTent.

[BigRAWesty]

I'd remove all the stuff off the roof.. may I ask why you keep it all up there?? All the bits seems small and lite enough to maybe store under the bed when not in use..

[gremlin]

i had the factory swaybars on their before which are 23mm from memory
currently fitted are front and rear superior superflex swaybars which are 27mm BUT the arms on them leading to the links are much longer so the torsion applied to the 27mm swaybar is much larger... apparently the amount of swaybar force is supposed to match the factory 23mm bars that came off BUT allow ful flex..

tent lives on roof as this is a spare car.. i drive a commodore daily.. only time patrol comes out of the garage is to hit the hwy for a camping trip! i could take it off the roof and try the car out but reality is whenever it needs to be driven the oztent needs to be up there to camp out of.

so possibly i need more spring and firmer valving ?

thoughts on a whiteline swaybar? they do a 24mm front... ill loose flex but i can always unbolt it for a day out playing...

not sure on the accuracy of the meter on my phone to be honest.. holding it in my hand and tilting the phone looks like 40deg...

a mate came in my car and i showed him its handling and he was scared ...he literally said i wouldnt drive that around, that is leaning so far over!! he is also a patrol owner... a gq lifted 4" although is extremelly light weighing in at 2,300kgs so very hard to compare the two patrols

Speed was like 30km/h

Yep to drop boxes.. got the hybrid 3" superflex arms so the drop boxes csme with them

[BigRAWesty]

Ok fair call.
I dont think the white lines will help much. The superior ones are pretty good from reports.
I'd say you need some stiffer springs. Maybe just the rear.

[gremlin]

ah ok sweet
does anyone do a spring rate above 350lb for the rear?

[BigRAWesty]

Maybe some air bags to assist with the weight..

[gremlin]

oh ok thats a decent idea.. airbags ok to leave inflated full time?

do airbags essentially add spring rate ?

[MudRunnerTD]

Yes but it seems more likely something else is the problem. What are you using the car for? Where do you live and drive it mate?

I get Plenty of flex out to my GUiV and not looking for any more there. I run a heavy duty rear sway bar and no front sway bar and it's very good. Thinking of fitting a sway bar back on the front but it's been like this for 7 years without trouble.

[gremlin]

yeh i think something isnt quite right when you see patrols and cruisers running around with roof racks and 3" lift all over the place..

i may have over looked the amount of weight up there though.. its a 4 x rhino bar system with aluminum full length roof basket.. foxwing fitted . oztent on the other side stored.. and 200watt solar panel + shovel.. ive calculated about around 105kgs in weight up there .. is this too much for a 3" lifted patrol? is my COG that bad now its pushing the car over in corners that much?

i dont mind adding more spring but i feel like this may make the ride terrible on corrugations? and possibly affect offroad ability if everything is to stiff? i also cant seem to find heavier than 350lb rear springs available or bigger than 320lb front springs available? have i reached the extra extra heavy duty gear with no where to go?

it rides firm but well as it is on flat straight ground, even on the rough stuff, its cornering thats the issue. is this where i would need more swaybar assistance? although i dont think i can get any bigger swaybars than what i have hmmm..

i live in sydney and use it to go to camping in lithgow, yalwal, watagans.. have done 2 x vic hi country trips and planned to do tassie and cape next year

is a 3" lifted, 3ton GU with 100kg on the roof unusual?

[BigRAWesty]

Not quite the same but my gq with an OME 2" lift suffers a little when the racks full. That's 40kg tent, awning, shovel, kids bikes, blow moulded table.. then full draw system and fridge.
I have +100kg springs up front and +200kg in the rear.
It's rough when empty but drives well when loaded.
No sway bar on front.

[Cuppa]

Something’s not right & my guess it has to do with the suspension mods. I doubt that airbags are the answer. A visit to a good spring works/suspension specialist for advice could pay dividends.

FWIW my Telstra pod equipped Patrol (ie. taller than a standard Patrol & with a 70kg roof top tent on top of that, plus a 125w solar panel on top of the cab) used to get a bit of a sway on around corners which felt unsafe like it was going to break traction (even though it never did). I recall following Roofy going up to the Murray & wondering how he was able to go around corners faster than me. If I tried to keep up with him it was white knuckle stuff.

Whilst not directly comparable - mine is leaf sprung at the rear & 2” lift, new springs & shocks transformed it.


Did the body roll happen with the factory swaybars? Do you still have them - if so it might be worth swapping them to see if the body roll remains the same or not?

[the evil twin]

Your Patrol is virtually already at GVM and airbags won't help.

You probably need a GVM upgrade if you want to keep that weight on a daily basis and at the very least a professional assessment of the suspension because something is definitely wrong.

[Clunk]

King Springs do a 300kg constant load spring and also a 300-500kg constant load spring................... I don't know much about them but could the superflex arms and sway bars be the cause?
Did you fit the new suspension before or after the superflex arms and sway bars....... how did it ride, previously to the mods?

[gremlin]

unfortunately everything was fitted in one go pretty much.. but i can say the factory swaybars and superflex swaybars didnt change anything for better or worse as that was a seperate mod

yeh its pretty much at gvm isnt it.. its pretty heavy..

i might take it somewhere for a look over i reckon

[gremlin]

id have to agree and confirm my phone app for pitch and roll isnt accurate while driving...i took it in the commodore and it was showing some funky figures.. seems cornering plays tricks on the phones sensors... so my angle report is of no use

[MudRunnerTD]

Yeah figure that would be the case.

Although heavy I don't think your any heavier than my GUIV to be honest and I can tell you your about the same weight as my GQ rolling although I've now taken a fair bit of weight out of that.

I am pointing at your springs mate. Your shocks are only there to dampen the spring as is the sway bars. Springs are wrong for your set up. Springs are easy to swap out so see if you can borrow a set of heavier for a 10km trial drive and see if there is a difference.

[liftlid]

Most cars have more stuff lower down like fuel and water etc when the roof is loaded so the car handles

[Ben-e-boy]

Heavier springs will only slow the body down on the shorter bends, on a long sweeping bend it will still roll just as much.
Also it will be a rougher ride.

[MudRunnerTD]

Heavier springs will only slow the body down on the shorter bends, on a long sweeping bend it will still roll just as much.
Also it will be a rougher ride.

Not sure I fully agree with that Bene? A Heavier Rate spring won't compress under the same load as a lighter spring? That's the point. So a heavier rate spring won't let the body just fall over at every corner or progressively roll over on a longer sweeper to the same extent as a softer or Slinky/Flexy type coil. It should carry the load far better all round.

The setup on my GQ was too soft and would just fall side to side, it was hideous. The new heavier springs saw a vast improvement.

The obvious choice here would be the spring rate. The sway bars should not be the problem? If they were your Long Arms would have the same effect and clearly they don't.

With a heavier spring rate you should be thinking about rear Tower Brace kit of some description too. Airbags are not an option here at all as your after flex and off road capabilities and the Airbags will get in your way of performance.

[threedogs]

Go get some weights done ,,,,over all weight of your Patrol then front axle ,then rear axle.
Any decent 4x4 shop will be able to tell you what LB spring you require. Adjust your shocks
to suit the weights

[gremlin]

cheers for the suggestions guys.. I'm going to get each corner weighed during the week...

I went to the 4wd show at eastern creek today and spoke to a few people about my issues... its booked in during the week for a weight assessment ..

I also spoke with Dobinson's about their shocks I have and they have offered to re-valve them a bit firmer for me if id like.. so ill wait for the weigh in to determine spring requirements and probably take up Dobinson's offer of a revalve..

oh and I made an impulse buy today of a new tent so the oztent will be coming off the roof and be sold!

hopefully all of the above will sort it out!

thanks again everyone

[threedogs]

The drivers side coil is a 12mm longer to compensate for the driver.
They may be marked left coil, or right coil dont get caught out eh

. Too far away for me but whats the oz tent going for$$$$$?

[gremlin]

not sure mate.. its an rv5 .. about 1 year old... got the optional fly with it..noo idea what they are worth used.. I was going to jump on ebay/gumtree see what they are getting put up there for...

[Ben-e-boy]

Not sure I fully agree with that Bene? A Heavier Rate spring won't compress under the same load as a lighter spring? That's the point. So a heavier rate spring won't let the body just fall over at every corner or progressively roll over on a longer sweeper to the same extent as a softer or Slinky/Flexy type coil. It should carry the load far better all round.

The setup on my GQ was too soft and would just fall side to side, it was hideous. The new heavier springs saw a vast improvement.

The obvious choice here would be the spring rate. The sway bars should not be the problem? If they were your Long Arms would have the same effect and clearly they don't.

With a heavier spring rate you should be thinking about rear Tower Brace kit of some description too. Airbags are not an option here at all as your after flex and off road capabilities and the Airbags will get in your way of performance.

Spring rate changes doesn't change the relationship between the roll centre and CoG, the vehicle is always going to roll on its axis, which is determined by geometry, adding spring rate is simply going to counteract that force, not remove it, thats why I said it will slow it down. If you turn hard and/or fast enough you'll still see the body roll as the force will over come the springs. If you just keep adding spring you'll come into other handling issues.