Mysthbusters! Down Under Version.

[dom14]

I find these two Aussie blokes are pretty good at what they do.
Time spent watching few of their videos well worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGtImIP6j3A

I already kinda knew, many of the performance chip upgrades are bit of a crock.

But, I always thought, cold air intake can make a noticeable difference.
That's why I've been seriously considering installing a snorkel kit on my GQ(not necessarily for river crossing). But, these guys say otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi2yo4UqPI

Any opinions guys?
I think dry air(air devoid of any moisture) can boost the power(according to chemistry) even though it's not practical atm.
I think even the above idea of cold air intake boost also based on the idea of cold air containing less moisture, not necessarily directly about the intake air temperature.

After all, I think, it kinda make sense warm air(with less moisture or no moisture) can
combust fuel better!?

[4bye4]

Well, it's got a chip in it - so you can tell your friends you have re chipped the motor.

[Throbbinhood]

Well, to be honest, a lot of their tests are useless unless they re-tune the vehicle. Car is only gonna make x-amount of boost before the wastegate opens up.. So without changes to that, you aren't going to effect peak power I don't think.. You may chance power delivery, it may come on a bit earlier and that, but the car is still limited to the tune..

By changing filters/removing them, yes, you lose the restriction, but at 6psi boost it may not be a restriction yet.. Up it to say, 24psi, and suddenly that standard air filter isn't gonna cut it.

[rusty_nail]

pretty cool vids tho i know what ill be watching tomorrow haha

[Throbbinhood]

As for cool air/moisture, not too sure on the moisture side of things, but I can certainly tell you on a cold summers night, my xr6t hauls ass compared to during the day where the temps are obviously a lot hotter. Same with my patrol, much prefers the cooler temps power-wise.

With regards to the snorkel - I didn't notice any change in power, certainly get a nicer note with the window open though! That, and haven't had to change/clean the air filter in a while (backwards facing snorkel), plus the obvious river crossing benefits - it's a mod worth doing IMO.

[the evil twin]

Agree...

Water injection used to be a popular power booster because the moisture IE water effectively increases compression.
Mix in some methanol and it was very noticeable on a 5 litre V8 I had years back

Patrol Diesel wise... CRD's love cold air and hate hot air.
Cold air produces more power because it is more dense (that is why Intercoolers exist) .
Cold air also keeps the EGT down for teh same delta T across the Turbo/Intercooler
Cold air is more dense so it has more oxygen molecules by volume.
Enter the MAF sensor whose sole purpose is measuring air temp and flow to tell the ECU the mass.
Because there is more Oxygen the ECU calculates mass X boost and will adjust the fuel delivery and timing accordingly

[dom14]

Thanx for posting some good facts mate.



Water injection used to be a popular power booster because the moisture IE water effectively increases compression.
Mix in some methanol and it was very noticeable on a 5 litre V8 I had years back


Did you mean actual water injection into the intake or to cool the intake air only?
I've heard of methanol/ethanol injection, which is combustible fuel itself.

How does the extra moisture going into the combustion chamber increase the compression without negatively affecting the intensity of the combustion?

Would it not eventually cause accelerated wear in the engine internals and exhaust system 'cos of the extra water?



Patrol Diesel wise... CRD's love cold air and hate hot air.
Cold air produces more power because it is more dense (that is why Intercoolers exist) .
Cold air also keeps the EGT down for teh same delta T across the Turbo/Intercooler
Cold air is more dense so it has more oxygen molecules by volume.
Enter the MAF sensor whose sole purpose is measuring air temp and flow to tell the ECU the mass.
Because there is more Oxygen the ECU calculates mass X boost and will adjust the fuel delivery and timing accordingly

I thought one of the reasons the high altitude cause the power to drop is that the fog+moisture causes the combustion to happen less effectively?
Not sure whether that's true for well tuned/designed EFI systems.
If the dense air has more water molecules in it, then it would it not affect the possible performance gain from having more oxygen molecules?!

In mine, I do notice power increase with colder air to a certain degree, then starts to go downhill when the temperature gets really cold like zero degrees.

[Throbbinhood]

Did you mean actual water injection into the intake or to cool the intake air only?
I've heard of methanol/ethanol injection, which is combustible fuel itself.
Generally, directly into the intake, or at 'hot points'. Can often be directly into the cylinder.
How does the extra moisture going into the combustion chamber increase the compression without negatively affecting the intensity of the combustion?
It lowers the intake temperature. From my understanding, it also lowers the pressure during compression as the water droplets absorb heat, but as combustion takes place, the water turns to high pressure steam.
Would it not eventually cause accelerated wear in the engine internals and exhaust system 'cos of the extra water?
With too much water, absolutely, or you could even hydrolock the motor.



I thought one of the reasons the high altitude cause the power to drop is that the fog+moisture causes the combustion to happen less effectively?
Air is less-dense at higher altitudes, and has a higher density at sea level.
Not sure whether that's true for well tuned/designed EFI systems.
AFAIK you can tune for this, but taking standard cars to extreme altitudes, they will suffer. EFI will compensate to a point, but you'll generally still notice it.
If the dense air has more water molecules in it, then it would it not affect the possible performance gain from having more oxygen molecules?!
The moist rich air will help to lower the intake temperatures by absorbing heat as is my understanding, and would negate any power loss from less oxygen.

In mine, I do notice power increase with colder air to a certain degree, then starts to go downhill when the temperature gets really cold like zero degrees.

**I had to type something here as it was complaining my message was too short.

[the evil twin]

what he said ^^^

My 5.0 litre HK the water was injected thru a metering valve just after the throttle butterflys.

[dom14]

what he said ^^^

My 5.0 litre HK the water was injected thru a metering valve just after the throttle butterflys.

Are there any power boost benefits of installing a water or water/methanol injection system on a carby or EFI NA engine?

This is good stuff, 'cos I was under the impression any amount of water/moisture can't improve combustion energy output.
And it appears I couldn't have been more wrong.
With the right balance, water/moisture obviously can boost the energy output of the combustion.
Only thing that's not clear to me that whether the extra water injected there will eventually shorten the engine life or not.

Cheers
Dom

[the evil twin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

[dom14]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

Thanx for the links mate. It puts out a good case for the benefits of the water/methanol injection.
I'm not sure about the economy of the process though. Methanol is not as cheap as petrol.
So, how much methanol being used per given km is important for average non rally car owner.

No doubt this works for performance car industry, since those rally cars aren't meant for normal roads,
or longevity of the engine is not a requirement in such applications.

It says the water/methanol doesn't reduce the engine life. I do understand the effect of water by helping
to remove the carbon residue is an obvious benefit. (I use the technique of pouring a little bit water into the
intake on a hot running engine to do that, once every few months)

Whether it creates an excess friction by affecting the lubrication effect of the oil is yet to be clarified.
I'm also thinking, the oil changes may have to be bit more frequent than non water/methanol injected vehicles?!

It looks like water/methanol injection is a boost solution for force inducted engines, not so much for NA ones??!!

Anther thing I wonder is that whether it increases, decreases or has no effect on the life span of the forced inducted engines.
The above video says no to that question, but it would be good to know more about it.

[garett]

its been used in diesel tractors for better economy. keeps your oil cleaner as less carbon gets washed away by the oil.
it like running 98 instead of 91.... if you adjust your gear changes to suit it helps fuel economy but if you use the extra power you'll burn the same or more fuel.
few of my mates have run water injection in their carby 350's they said it helped with power. but as with every power mod you need to retune it to gain benefits

[dom14]

its been used in diesel tractors for better economy. keeps your oil cleaner as less carbon gets washed away by the oil.
it like running 98 instead of 91.... if you adjust your gear changes to suit it helps fuel economy but if you use the extra power you'll burn the same or more fuel.
few of my mates have run water injection in their carby 350's they said it helped with power. but as with every power mod you need to retune it to gain benefits

Cool thanx mate. I'll see whether I can come up with my own injection method with home made gear. I guess I would have to buy the injection nozzle unit one way or the other.
The rest I probably can come up with my own gear. I'm very much interested in what this technology can offer.
I'm just wondering, why methanol? Why no ethanol, which obviously is tad cheaper?!!

[garett]

not sure why methanol over ethanol but they put an alloy plate under the carby with the nozzle there

[the evil twin]

not sure why methanol over ethanol but they put an alloy plate under the carby with the nozzle there

Methanol is soluble in water so it atomises more easily than ethanol.