TD 4.2Ti Gas Injection ?

[Hodge]

In about a month time I will have an opportunity to buy a 2005 4.2 Ti. Car is clean and no mods except it has gas injection... which I know sweet fark all about. Car was used to tow a dog wash trailer around. I straight away think LPG cars where some engines are just not built for LPG and cop the un-wanted heat etc... I Just do not want to finally buy a TD42 and then find out the engine got shafted due to the gas ...

The bloke whos going to be selling it, tells me it's purely for more power when gas is kicked in... And it was on the car when he bought it. From what I have seen they have removed the sub tank (diesel) and slotted a gas tank in there.
Apart from more power, what are other pros? And more importantly any cons? Engine runs hotter ?

[jay see]

Found this at here.

http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au/Faq.aspx

*Does the engine run hotter?

No. Since more power is being produced the engine does not have to work as hard so it will not run hotter. Exhaust gas temperatures are also cooler since there is no longer excess fuel being burnt in the exhaust system

I looked into this a few years ago when I had my other 4x4.

Guy in a 3lt surf had in his and loved it.

[Bigcol]

In about a month time I will have an opportunity to buy a 2005 4.2 Ti. Car is clean and no mods except it has gas injection... which I know sweet fark all about. Car was used to tow a dog wash trailer around. I straight away think LPG cars where some engines are just not built for LPG and cop the un-wanted heat etc... I Just do not want to finally buy a TD42 and then find out the engine got shafted due to the gas ...

The bloke whos going to be selling it, tells me it's purely for more power when gas is kicked in... And it was on the car when he bought it. From what I have seen they have removed the sub tank (diesel) and slotted a gas tank in there.
Apart from more power, what are other pros? And more importantly any cons? Engine runs hotter ?

first question - is it DGas or DieselGas......... - 2 quite different systems - and some will not touch one or the other - both camps say the other is crappy and cheap
2nd question - how many Kms........?
3rd question - how much are you willing to spend on Mods for either system......... (I will get to that later)

start to answer your own questions for you
NO engine is specifically designed for Gas as well as Diesel
BUT
having the Gas will not "then find out the engine got shafted due to the gas ."
Gas burns at 110% - so it completely burns away, as well as more of the oxygen and any other fuel in the combustion chamber
Diesel only burns at 70-80% - so you always have a residue that will not burn away
you DO need the Turbo & even the Intercooler to get the best out of the Diesel & Gas systems
will the engine run hotter - actually NO
around town driving I rarely see over 250* on the pyro - towing - it usually sits at around 350*

now, when you say "tells me it's purely for more power when gas is kicked in - depending on the system (DGas or DieselGas) depends on how it "kicks in"
the newer generation of DGas is similar to the DieselGas, it "kicks in" at whatever Boost you have it set for
- Mine is set at 5Lb Boost - once it hits the magic 5lb - the Gas kicks in - and boy is is fun................

they should NOT have removed the sub tank - why they did if the did is beyond me - apart from wanting to carry more Gas
- there is usually a small 25-30L tank on the passenger front (under the seat - under the car) for the Gas......

now, for your Pro's and Con's
Cons -
if it wasn't already fitted, I would recommend NEVER fit it - too expensive for what it is
pain in the arse filling up diesel, and forgetting to fill the Gas
my filler in underneath the back bumper - so a sore back after I fill it up
Gas is getting bloody expensive
oil changes MUST be done at 5K - not 6 or 8K
after awhile, you will want a bigger Turbo & bigger Intercooler to make it get up and go that little bit better...... (I know - thats what I'm looking at)
pain in the arse filling up diesel, and forgetting to fill the Gas

pro's -
rev's like bloody hell - all the way around to 3500rpm if you want it to
much more usable power depending on how its setup - from 5lb - so think anywhere from 1500rpm upwards - for take offs when towing
burns cleaner - so also helps with burning unburnt diesel
helps with fuel economy - burning all that diesel see, so you pay at the pump for the Gas, but it helps you NOT dump unburnt fuel into the air


as its already fitted, and they are a good thing (just too expensive to fit now days) I would suggest going for it

[Bigcol]

I should also say - as per my sig
I have a 1999 GU TD42
it had the DGas system fitted - used to blow shyteloads of black smoke when on Gas (unburnt fuel) - because the Gas burns first and faster, so it was NOT an advantage
I then fitted a Turbo & Intercooler off a 2006 TD42, and left it set at factory settings - ie: 8lb boost

next project (when funds allow) is to get it dyno'd and see if the pump needs mod, or just crank up the boost or what

but I am happy as
with the Turbo & Intercooler I have around 116Kw (same as the ZD30 - Di & CRD)
I have NOT had it dyno'd with the Gas running - so who know what that will be

[jay see]

Gas is getting bloody expensive

Wrong

51.9 cents per liter
30 litres = $15.57.
Even less with the 4 cent discount.
Last year prices hit 80 cents...

[Bigcol]

considering it used to be 1/4 the price of Petrol
$0.29 for Gas when Petrol hit $1.00 per litre

I would say $0.519 cents a litre to be expensive
there is NO GST on Gas
there is NO fuel Parity price on Gas
there is NO Federal Fuel Excise on Gas............

why is it nearly $0.30 dearer in Melb

oh, and its $0.729 here in Perth average

[Ben-e-boy]

When I have spoken to people about cracking 3 pistons on my TD, the most common qustion is "Did you run that on gas too"? Not that I know much on this subject but It certainly made me think.

On an uneducated note I dont see the point of running a petrolium based fuel with a diesel, the gains from that can be achieved with decent turbo cooler and tune are just as good and sometimes better

[Bigcol]

also considering that it costs on Average about $3500 - $4500 to fit Gas to your car
and it take on average 6 years (at 40,000kms) per year to pay for itself

and thats a Petrol / Gas conversion

takes about 11 years to pay for itself on a Diesel / Gas conversion

yes, for what it is - the Gas is too expensive to fit to cars now days

[jay see]

Bigcol.

I think that there is some sort of tax on there.
A few years ago the government paid $1500 for every install. They are slowly getting it all back.

[Bigcol]

When I have spoken to people about cracking 3 pistons on my TD, the most common qustion is "Did you run that on gas too"? Not that I know much on this subject but It certainly made me think.

On an uneducated note I dont see the point of running a petrolium based fuel with a diesel, the gains from that can be achieved with decent turbo cooler and tune


I would suggest they were also "uneducated" with a comment like that
unless you were force feeding Gas at the same rate as Diesel

why run a petroleum based fuel with Diesel?
burns cleaner and burns better - burns all that unburnt diesel as well - hence more efficient

having Gas injection withOUT a turbo & Intercooler is like having a box of condoms on a deserted Island - on your own
pretty bloody useless

[Ben-e-boy]

Wouldnt a petrolium or spirit based fuel ignite a different point of the compression cycle?

[taslucas]

Wouldnt a petrolium or spirit based fuel ignite a different point of the compression cycle?

I think that's the point. From what I can gather the diesel ignites under compression and once the fire is "lit" then the gas ignites to burn itself and the remainder of the diesel to give more oomph to the power stroke.
Also by igniting the unburnt diesel it releases energy that would otherwise be blown out the exhaust so is more economical.

[Ben-e-boy]

I think that's the point. From what I can gather the diesel ignites under compression and once the fire is "lit" then the gas ignites to burn itself and the remainder of the diesel to give more oomph to the power stroke.
Also by igniting the unburnt diesel it releases energy that would otherwise be blown out the exhaust so is more economical.

I could be wrong but I dont think the lpg would ignite after diesel. I think it would burn first, pre ignite. Just using my logic or lack there of, if it were to be ignited by the diesel you could theoretically run a sparked engine on lpg and up the compression to 20+:1 without drama
Happy to corrected though

Edit. If it is either side of combustion wouldnt that be 2 seperate ignitions? And extra shock loading on the crank?

[nissannewby]

Gas like petrol will pre ignite on anything really above 14:1. Hence when people turbo petrols the decompress the engine down to even 7:1 as the added heat from the added pressure will pre ignite the fuel causing pinging etc.

Lpg does the same on the diesel. It ignites well before the diesel has even been injected. You would have far more benefit from running water methanol.

Lpg on a diesel is bad!

There is also the added problem of an extra fuel system to diagnose. Where do they put the tank? Its a lot of money to outlay on something tha really has mimimal gain if any.

[Ben-e-boy]

Gas like petrol will pre ignite on anything really above 14:1. Hence when people turbo petrols the decompress the engine down to even 7:1 as the added heat from the added pressure will pre ignite the fuel causing pinging etc.

Lpg does the same on the diesel. It ignites well before the diesel has even been injected. You would have far more benefit from running water methanol.

So if it pre ignites above 14:1 would that mean that the lpg is starting to combust at 2/3 of the compression stroke

[nissannewby]

So if it pre ignites above 14:1 would that mean that the lpg is starting to combust at 2/3 of the compression stroke

Pretty much. Even if its after that (although it is much more likely before that due to temps inside the combustion chamber already) the amount of added pressure in the cylinder from a fuel firing while the piston is still trying to get to tdc is extreme.

My logic and understanding of it.

[Bigcol]

So if it pre ignites above 14:1 would that mean that the lpg is starting to combust at 2/3 of the compression stroke

1 to 3 milliseconds (millionth of a second) before the diesel ignites yes..............
not at 2/3rds of the stroke

dont forget, at 1200rpm, thats 20 rotations every second

[Bigcol]

most gas systems for diesels, the gas is injected into the inlet manifold, not into each cylinder.

[nissannewby]

1 to 3 milliseconds (millionth of a second) before the diesel ignites yes..............
not at 2/3rds of the stroke

dont forget, at 1200rpm, thats 20 rotations every second

Only 10 of those are firing strokes..

[Bigcol]

snip
Its a lot of money to outlay on something tha really has mimimal gain if any.

the OP has asked about a Patrol that already has Diesel / Gas fitted

it is not worth the coin to fit it after, for the amount of gains you get v's how long it would take to pay for itself

but there is significant gains to be had from the system if it is already fitted - as per OP

[Ben-e-boy]

1 to 3 milliseconds (millionth of a second) before the diesel ignites yes..............
not at 2/3rds of the stroke

dont forget, at 1200rpm, thats 20 rotations every second

Is it 3ms throughout the rev range, at all temperatures than can be safely achieved through the motors general duties?

[Ben-e-boy]

the OP has asked about a Patrol that already has Diesel / Gas fitted

it is not worth the coin to fit it after, for the amount of gains you get v's how long it would take to pay for itself

but there is significant gains to be had from the system if it is already fitted - as per OP

What kind of gains have you achieved on your setup?

[nissannewby]

the OP has asked about a Patrol that already has Diesel / Gas fitted

it is not worth the coin to fit it after, for the amount of gains you get v's how long it would take to pay for itself

but there is significant gains to be had from the system if it is already fitted - as per OP

You are right about the op.

I will answer his question and say walk away and leave it.

Im not having a go col. I like these discussions as a lot comes from them. Its all just differences in opinion and interpretation.

[Bigcol]

What kind of gains have you achieved on your setup?

rev's freely to 3800rmp in all gears
has the pickup of a 4.5L Patrol to 3rd gear, then they out strip me to 100

I have not had mine Dyno'd since I got the Gas system fixed - but it is a very noticeable increase in power

the difference with towing a 2T van with gas on V's towing 2T van without the Gas is very very very noticable

[Bigcol]

You are right about the op.

I will answer his question and say walk away and leave it.

Im not having a go col. I like these discussions as a lot comes from them. Its all just differences in opinion and interpretation.

if you have never had a Gas powered car
either sole Gas or Petrol / Gas or Diesel / Gas
there is a heck of a lot of miss information out there..........................

if he dont want it, I will grab it

let me know where it is, and how much

trust me, if its already fitted - and its running properly - its worth its weight in Gold

[Bigcol]

Ben-e-boy

have a read of this.........

http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au/Faq.aspx

a lot of information

[nissannewby]

Any info that isnt written by the company who is profiting from it?

[Bigcol]

I have no affiliating with them,
and my Gas system is a different system to theirs

but it has some info that is interesting
there is also Google -

[jay see]

Lots of information here.
Without knowing a heap but this kind of system, I think and this is only my opinion.

This system is already there bonus.
Drive it and then go drive one in similar condition and age and compare.
Also consider further mods.
If you can get someone to go over it that knows a little about these even better. If you don't like the gas side of it.
Take it out....

Good luck with it.

[Hodge]

WoW. Thanks a lot for all the replies folks... A lot of reading with the morning coffee.
Ok, I did not ask what type of system it is, I will give the bloke a call later today and find out. I didn't think to ask, as per my original post, I do not have a single bit of clue about these types of systems. Well I know a bit now after your replies... All I know is the bloke swears it gives the car a new meaning when it is punched in. He clicks the button up some hills, when the trailer begins anchoring the car down... So says he. He also did say the car runs like a dream or without gas. So, maybe it's tuned right ? Whos to believe what. And the other thing I know for a fact is the sub tank is definitely removed and replaced with a similar size round LPG like tank ... I'll know more later.

Big col is on the money here. Some of these systems cost a small country to install (going by some of my quick googling). So if this is tuned right, then it's a win win I guess...

This car is still a while off from being available. Month at least, and I will probably have first preference, if I'm ready to buy by then ... So I have time to research.
The main reason I asked about the gas is ... I sold a 3L because I don't trust it... to buy a 4.2 for a more reliable trusty car. The last thing I want to do now is buy a 4.2 that's going to be a PITA due to some addon fuel system. I am not after super power or super economy in the 4.2 I buy. All I want is a smooth running reliable motor. That is all. So I would absolutely die on the inside if this is jeopardized by this gas injection system, whatever brand or type it may be...

One other thing I forgot to add is when I was looking at some 4.2's online for sale over a few different sites. There were several very late 4.2's with gas injection fitted... Is this a co-incidence or are later 4.2's for some reason more feasible to gas inject? Maybe due to being factory turbo intercooled?
Bare with me folks. I'm learning. lol

[Bigcol]

One other thing I forgot to add is when I was looking at some 4.2's online for sale over a few different sites. There were several very late 4.2's with gas injection fitted... Is this a co-incidence or are later 4.2's for some reason more feasible to gas inject? Maybe due to being factory turbo intercooled?


the Gas system is pretty much the same (figuratively speaking) as adding a chip
the early TD42's didnt have a computer - so could not chip
but you needed to put a turbo on to gain anything - (MY opinion)
the later TD42's are computer controlled - so more power to start with
but, as they were factory Turbo'd, you have the oil spray under the pistons etc that makes it a better motor to start with

I would guess that as the fitting cost were way way lower (Gov subsidies etc) it was probably more viable than now,
but also the Diesel Chip market was only just starting with imported ones being modified for the Cars we have for sale here in Aust.

as I said, a guess

you should ask him if he had it fitted - and why not a chip
be curious to find out the why's and wherefore's

[Ben-e-boy]

1 to 3 milliseconds (millionth of a second) before the diesel ignites yes..............
not at 2/3rds of the stroke

dont forget, at 1200rpm, thats 20 rotations every second

I didnt pick up on this last night, but 3ms is 1 thousandth of a second, micro second is millionth.........not to worry though :)





Is it 3ms throughout the rev range, at all temperatures than can be safely achieved through the motors general duties?

I'll bring up this question again^^^^^^. Because it is pre igniting, that alone is going to put extra stress on the rotating assembly where there shouldnt be.

To me looking from the outside in on this subject I am yet to find any answers through my reaseach to questions like this. They have been asked but not answered. They are usually tip toed around with website % figures, and a power graph which tell us nothing
Taking into account the fact that a td42 is robust by design it is likely that it wont fail in 10K km but I would be very interested to see some big end and main bearings after prolonged lpg injection.

[nissannewby]

The timing is only one part of the pre ignition. Your throwing the gas in an already hot combustion chamber. Also if its turbo you now have charged air that is also heated. This all adds up to it happening sooner.

[the evil twin]

Wrong

51.9 cents per liter
30 litres = $15.57.
Even less with the 4 cent discount.
Last year prices hit 80 cents...

strewth that is cheap, ya lucky dogs.

Perth Metro the average price today (19 July) is 75 CPL
Travel "1 tank" away from Perth into the wheatbelt and the average price is 90 CPL
Head off the main highways and it hits $1:10 to $1:30... IF you can even get LPG at all

[threedogs]

somethink else to go wrong imo.
plus now youre paying for two fuels
wheres the economy in that ?
You already have a bomb proof motor in the 4.2TD

[Hodge]

somethink else to go wrong imo.
plus now youre paying for two fuels
wheres the economy in that ?
You already have a bomb proof motor in the 4.2TD

Hence my concern. One of the thing the bloke told, is oh you dont have to use it just leave it off or just get rid of it if you buy the car. Yeah, but what and if any damage has it already done to the engine. The car has just clicked over 175k. What draws me to it is the price he offered it for and how stupidly clean it is. And the fact it has NO mods, not even a bull bar. Just this gas injection system.

[Ben-e-boy]

Hence my concern. One of the thing the bloke told, is oh you dont have to use it just leave it off or just get rid of it if you buy the car. Yeah, but what and if any damage has it already done to the engine. The car has just clicked over 175k. What draws me to it is the price he offered it for and how stupidly clean it is. And the fact it has NO mods, not even a bull bar. Just this gas injection system.

How much is he asking?

[nissannewby]

How much is he asking?

And what badge? Is the Ti referring to the trim spec or that its turbo intercooled

[Ben-e-boy]

And what badge? Is the Ti referring to the trim spec or that its turbo intercooled

Its 2005, so its a GUIV.

[nissannewby]

Yeah but st, stl etc etc.

[mudski]

My 2c whether its worth it or not... i wouldn't buy one with this gas injection. Purely based on its something else you have to think about, or worry about. Especially when your out in the bush. I have no doubt that with this system it will go great but as Ben said. A little tickle with these motors and they will go great without gas injection.

[the evil twin]

In about a month time I will have an opportunity to buy a 2005 4.2 Ti. Car is clean and no mods except it has gas injection... which I know sweet fark all about. Car was used to tow a dog wash trailer around. I straight away think LPG cars where some engines are just not built for LPG and cop the un-wanted heat etc... I Just do not want to finally buy a TD42 and then find out the engine got shafted due to the gas ...

The bloke whos going to be selling it, tells me it's purely for more power when gas is kicked in... And it was on the car when he bought it. From what I have seen they have removed the sub tank (diesel) and slotted a gas tank in there.
Apart from more power, what are other pros? And more importantly any cons? Engine runs hotter ?

If the car is a good price on its own merits then buy it.
LPG fumigation on Diesels has been around for yonks.
It is totally different to 'converting' a Petrol and AFAIK has none of the issues associated with petty engines.
It certainly has zero effect on valves, seals, rings, etc

I personally haven't owned a gassed TD42 but there have been a few in my 4WD Club over the years (incl Col's).
One of them the guy drove it like he stole it for years and never a hint of trouble (not Col).
That car was one of the last TD42's imported (an '06 GUIV) and was gassed almost from new
It is the one I have driven on a few occasions was a very nice ride indeed with the extra torque

I also haven't heard of any issues with them from any of the main Nissan maintainers over here
Again, if the car is as neat as you say and a fair /bargain buy IE not a premium price because of the Gas then I'd be all over it

[Hodge]

How much is he asking?


And what badge? Is the Ti referring to the trim spec or that its turbo intercooled

Being a family friend he gave me very low $30ks as a price... but if I don't scoop it up, one of his sons will or something like that.

The car is an ST badge. And yes Ti i meant as in turbo intercooler. Not Ti as in a badge Ti. In the silver color too which is my fave patrol color.
Will see what happens.

[katwoman]

From a dumb ass perspective. Mine is about to click over 300k. No intercooler. 30L gas tank plus standard main tank, long range sub tank. You can tell the difference in power when the gas is on. I've had no issues what so ever. Fuel economy drops from approximately 12L/100 to 9L/100. Filling up is not an issue. You just get used to gassing one stop, diesel the next. 30L gas does about 600 Kms. I always change oil every 5000 any way. I got the filler fitted inside the rear bar to protect it. I'm happy with it.

[Ben-e-boy]

From a dumb ass perspective. Mine is about to click over 300k. No intercooler. 30L gas tank plus standard main tank, long range sub tank. You can tell the difference in power when the gas is on. I've had no issues what so ever. Fuel economy drops from approximately 12L/100 to 9L/100. Filling up is not an issue. You just get used to gassing one stop, diesel the next. 30L gas does about 600 Kms. I always change oil every 5000 any way. I got the filler fitted inside the rear bar to protect it. I'm happy with it.

Is that 9L/100 for diesel or both?

[katwoman]

Is that 9L/100 for diesel or both?

Only diesel.

[Ben-e-boy]

Only diesel.

I like that. How much gas is injected per 100km? Or litre or however it is metred?

[the evil twin]

I like that. How much gas is injected per 100km? Or litre or however it is metred?

Looks like KW is getting 5 litres per 100.
My mate was using more IIRC.

Gotta remember fumigation (LPG, Meth, Petrol) on Diesels is primarily for increasing power not reducing running costs as in a fuel sustitution scenario on a Petty.
You could wind the fuel off I 'spose but that defeats the intent of gassing the sucker in the first place

[katwoman]

Looks like KW is getting 5 litres per 100. My mate was using more IIRC. Gotta remember fumigation (LPG, Meth, Petrol) on Diesels is primarily for increasing power not reducing running costs as in a fuel sustitution scenario on a Petty. You could wind the fuel off I 'spose but that defeats the intent of gassing the sucker in the first place

What he said.
As for power, I've done 'Big red' twice in this car. With gas, made it first time. Without gas, never made it at all. She's a slug without it.

[Bacho86]

For comparisons sake; hasn't said what kind of diesel / gas system though

2005 Nissan Patrol ST GU IV Manual 4x4 MY05
6cyl 4.2L
Manual
SUV
146,000 km
Private Seller Car

For more information on this vehicle please visit:
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Nissan-Patrol-2005/SSE-AD-2909266



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[Stropp]

That's a lot of car with low mileage for that sort of money

[Hodge]

I spoke to that guy. That thing has the works. It has a diesel gas Aus system. Supposedly over 30k spent on top of car since new ... Too bad I can't buy yet.

As for the original car dedicated this thread to , idea is now shelved as his son is taking the car. We had a look and could not tell what brand gas system it is. He did mention however it does run a rad hotter sometimes when he punches it in. If that's good or bad. I don't know .