Using generator to charge batteries

[dom14]

Hey guys,
I'm thinking about using my 2 stroke camping generator to charge 12V car batteries in case when I need to do it.
My two stroke generator doesn't seem to have the facility to charge the batteries directly off it.
Even if it does, the amount of amps it could put out would take until end of time to charge an average 4WD or deep cycle battery.
I do have a 20 amp mains charger, which happens to be a three stage smart charger. But the genie is not a pure sine wave one.
So, It might cook the charger(or might not, by I prefer not to take any chances)
Is there a way to use this type of generator for charging batteries?
Or am I looking at upgrading the genie from a dirt cheap 2 stroke to a pure sine wave type dearer one?

Any tips, advice will be appreciated.

[threedogs]

There is a mob that uses a honda Gen set and a alternator from a car.
cant remember their name ATM, Christies industries Im not sure.
But try and use the drive shaft to drive the alternator maybe by belt.
You'll need to get the revs right to excite the alternator, so pulley size is important

[dom14]

There is a mob that uses a honda Gen set and a alternator from a car.
cant remember their name ATM, Christies industries Im not sure.
But try and use the drive shaft to drive the alternator maybe by belt.
You'll need to get the revs right to excite the alternator, so pulley size is important

Thanks for the idea mate. I reckon it's not a bad idea to combine a genie and an old alternator from a car.
I reckon I need to get the mechanics and rpm right.
Basically I will be modifying a generator.

[dom14]

There is a mob that uses a honda Gen set and a alternator from a car.
cant remember their name ATM, Christies industries Im not sure.
But try and use the drive shaft to drive the alternator maybe by belt.
You'll need to get the revs right to excite the alternator, so pulley size is important

Basically the project would be like this.

http://theepicenter.com/tow052903.html

[threedogs]

Yeah the one you can buy for $1k is a direct drive off the gen set shaft.
Better than solar, well faster than solar, especially if its raining,
I'll try and find it for you,
Cant seem to find them but you have the general idea

[AB]

Hey mate personally if you are wanting it for a just incase reason I would rather spend half that on a decent solar panel.

You can keep all your batteries in charge at camp use power at camp without using fuel and noisey generators etc.

I have a Bosch 160w suitcase solar panel system and its more then enough for using power at camp and keeping all batteries full.

Just a thought anyway.

Sure if for some reason your battery is flat it will take a lot longer then the gen but a lot more benefit for camping and far cheaper and no ongoing costs etc.

[Cuppa]

I reckon trying to get your two stroke gennie to run an alternator to charge your batteries, whilst an interesting experiment is likely to cost you more money than doing it the easy way & will be big & clunky to store & cart about. Even the proprietary built ones (which are probably overkill for your needs anyway) are bulky. http://www.christieengineering.com.au/products.html

You could try the following:
- try running the gennie with your smart charger - this is likely to work
- Get a decent inverter gennie to use with your smart charger - this will work.
- Give the gennies the flick & spend the money on a solar set up. Not only will this work, it will do so silently & without fumes for which you may or may not be grateful, but your camping neighbours almost certainly will.

Disclaimer: I have never yet camped anywhere near someone with a 2 stroke gennie whom I didn’t wish would disappear asap in his/her own cloud of blue smoke. Maybe I was confusing gennie & genie - must’ve been the fumes getting to me or the ringing in my ears.

If you must use an engine driven alternator to charge a battery whilst camping - why wouldn’t you use the one fitted to your vehicle? And if you were going to do this, why wouldn’t you use a dc to dc smart charger to ensure you didn’t need to do so any more often than necessary?

[my third 256]

install a battery monitor that will tell when the batteries are low
main battery is mainly for cranking not for auxilery stuff to the camp site
so you only use second battery for this
as AB @ cuppa said get a sola pannel for charging and use

[MudRunnerTD]

There is nothing worse than camping next to someone that relies on a genset. We live in an age of LED and cheap Solar setups are the way to go. Leave the genset at home mate, don't over think it. A 140amp Solar set up for less than $250 to your door and you will never use your genset again.

When parked just lift the bonnet and leave the solar connected. It will trickle whenever the sun is out. Win.

[Bloodyaussie]

I have 180watt system i paid a touch over $260 and its brilliant.. i have a battery in a power pack and can run a fridge and lights for weeks.

[gaddy]

Without getting into the solar vs genni debate , it works , and with a 20 amp smart charger it only takes a hour evey couple of days ! I do it on trips of 3 weeks or more , one day I will go solar , but the old man gave me his old honda 4 stroke 1kva , so cost me nothing , ( im a tight ass ) and I don't camp beside other people , and if I am I don't run it ,

[dom14]

Ok, cool, thanx guys. Everybody's pretty much unanimously advising me to go solar. Perhaps, I'm wasting my time with any alternator+gennie combinations, if my goal is to cut the budget. Alternator+gennie units won't help me with the low budget or with reducing the carrying weight in the car. But, I might keep the idea for garage experiments and projects.
Solar is the way to go. I was onto set it up(not on the car though, rather on the caravan).
I will most definitely set up a solar system, but I'm not sure where to fit the solar panels on the car.
Roof rack will take over the roof. So, I'm looking at setting up the solar panel on the caravan, am I not?
Or are you guys referring to those folding solar panels?
Can they be around 150W+ ?! With folding solar panels, I would need to remember to unfold it and attach the batteries, won't I?
Only thing is that in an unlikely event, solar won't help with charging the batteries quickly though.

This is the scenario I'm thinking about. To set up a couple of batteries to weld something in the bush.
This can be the difference leaving behind the 4WD in the bush and recovering it and driving.
Outback recoveries can be so prohibitively expensive at times.

Following Cuppa's advise, I reckon I will hook up the smart charger to my 2 stroke gennie and see how it goes.

So, no doubt I should set up a solar system, but I'm still bit lost where to set it up on the car.

My van is no good for bush driving. It's not an off road van, though I lifted the suspension to be able to cope with off road conditions.
Even though the van is an 11 footer, I reckon it's still way too heavy for any off road stuff, even for tracks like Oodnadatta, Birdsville, etc.
But, I may be wrong about that.

[dom14]

Yeah the one you can buy for $1k is a direct drive off the gen set shaft.
Better than solar, well faster than solar, especially if its raining,
I'll try and find it for you,
Cant seem to find them but you have the general idea

1k is bit too heavy for me mate. I"m thinking building something like that on my own using my old 4 stroke mower engine and an alternator from a small sedan.
Project won't be too expensive that way, but will take time for sure. As you said, I need to make sure the revs are high enough with the mower though.
Or I can tear apart my existing 2 stroke gennie and combine that with an alternator. Either way, it's a pretty good project, if I can pull it off quickly enough.

As you can guess, somebody's already done that. Sure, it's heavier than a 2 stroke gennie, but I reckon it can't be heaps heavier than a typical 2 stroke gennie. Most of the weight would be the mower engine. Using light weight plywood can make the frame lot lighter, though it probably won't help with compacting the design though.

If I have a good TIG weld setup, I would use aluminium for the frame.

http://theepicenter.com/tow082099.html

[dom14]

Without getting into the solar vs genni debate , it works , and with a 20 amp smart charger it only takes a hour evey couple of days ! I do it on trips of 3 weeks or more , one day I will go solar , but the old man gave me his old honda 4 stroke 1kva , so cost me nothing , ( im a tight ass ) and I don't camp beside other people , and if I am I don't run it ,

Well, you're not the only tight ass mate. I started this thread with an ass pretty tight. :D

I will give it a go with my el cheapo 2 stroke gennie and smart charger tomorrow morning and see how it goes.
Let's pray it won't cook the charger. Smart chargers use a microprocessor to program the voltage and current through different stages of charging.
Microprocessors are sensitive to frequency spikes. But, having said that, if the voltage conversion(from 240V to whatever) inside the smart charger is done via a transformer,
then it shouldn't affect badly on the microprocessor circuit(That if I got that theory right)
I reckon, I'm going to have to open up the smart charger and see if it's using a transformer to drop the voltages. If it's using other circuitry to do that, then I reckon my dirt cheap 2 stroke gennie won't be healthy for my smart charger.

I must admit, these building something out of nothing projects are time killers, but you feel like being on GM modified weed when you get it right and come up with something really useful.

[dom14]

If you must use an engine driven alternator to charge a battery whilst camping - why wouldn’t you use the one fitted to your vehicle? And if you were going to do this, why wouldn’t you use a dc to dc smart charger to ensure you didn’t need to do so any more often than necessary?

Hi Cuppa,
I was thinking about a scenario in an unfortunate event the car engine stops turning and I may need to rely on a gennie to charge the batteries(for repair needs, etc)
Just thinking ahead, or am I overdoing it?
Don't forget though, in my scenario, I'm on my own as well, which sometime does happen even when I start the adventure with a group of blokes.
(an occasional adrenaline junkie, not a fulltime one though)

[gaddy]

It's also amazing how many 6 packs you can get after a week of rain , from people with solar ! Watch the hate start :)
For what it's worth I am not heavy on power , only have lights on in the van when cooking , and a dimmable led strip out side , or tilly lantetn , van fridge on gas and engal in the car , last trip to Fraser 2 weeks van battery droped from 12.4 to 11 volts without any charging

[Cuppa]

Hi Cuppa,
I was thinking about a scenario in an unfortunate event the car engine stops turning and I may need to rely on a gennie to charge the batteries(for repair needs, etc)
Just thinking ahead, or am I overdoing it?
Don't forget though, in my scenario, I'm on my own as well, which sometime does happen even when I start the adventure with a group of blokes.
(an occasional adrenaline junkie, not a fulltime one though)


A couple more thoughts:

I suspect you are over-thinking it. If you have two batteries the aux battery should be connected to the crank battery in such a way that allows the aux to be used but sufficient charge left in the crank battery for starting the car. There is more than one way of achieving this. The gennie/solar possibilities should be about how to put charge back into the aux. If you consider you will be in remote enough places to need the option of welding by battery, you need to carry at least a third battery. (Or ensure you have batteries & a carging system that are in tip top condition & be prepared to do the welding in stages, rather than all at once). However if you are talking tracks like the Oodnadatta & Birdsville - most of the year these are relative highways. Someone with a battery you can add to your aux will be along soon if you need it.

As for taking an 11 footer caravan along those tracks - no problem - just drive to the conditions. If need be do some interior reinforcing to keep things from shaking themselves to bits on corrugations ...... & keep speeds well down &tye pressures down.

We drove this down the Birdsville by ourselves & many other long stretches of similar tracks besides. The trailer had a couple of dirt bikes & a heap of other gear in it. About 28’ long all up.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/05/96.jpg

[dom14]

A couple more thoughts:

I suspect you are over-thinking it. If you have two batteries the aux battery should be connected to the crank battery in such a way that allows the aux to be used but sufficient charge left in the crank battery for starting the car. There is more than one way of achieving this. The gennie/solar possibilities should be about how to put charge back into the aux. If you consider you will be in remote enough places to need the option of welding by battery, you need to carry at least a third battery. (Or ensure you have batteries & a carging system that are in tip top condition & be prepared to do the welding in stages, rather than all at once). However if you are talking tracks like the Oodnadatta & Birdsville - most of the year these are relative highways. Someone with a battery you can add to your aux will be along soon if you need it.

As for taking an 11 footer caravan along those tracks - no problem - just drive to the conditions. If need be do some interior reinforcing to keep things from shaking themselves to bits on corrugations ...... & keep speeds well down &tye pressures down.

We drove this down the Birdsville by ourselves & many other long stretches of similar tracks besides. The trailer had a couple of dirt bikes & a heap of other gear in it. About 28’ long all up.

[

Thanks Cuppa. That motorhome has plenty or room both inside, outside and top of the roof to setup the solar panels. Mine is an RB30 GQ Patrol.
I've considered a motorhome like that, but the budget won't allow it, as well as no room for it.
Thanks for the tips about the tracks. Occasionally, I tend to veer off the main track and explore(mildly) some of the lesser known tracks, hence the reason for my thinking ahead. I do carry four batteries including the main battery. During hot days in remote areas, the cooling system and other parts of the engine can fail without giving any warning in advance. My GQ started leaking diff oil heavily out of axle seals and the engine oil started burning(and vanishing) during a big red trip. Luckily for me, the GQ was smarter than me and kept rolling until I got home without failing. Starter motor refused to crank the very next day I got home, but didn't give me any grief during the trip. I know, it's not possible to have contingency plans for all kind of scenarios like that.

Few yeas ago, my mate's caravan leaf springs gave up in the middle of the Birdsville track. A passer-by helped them to get it fixed, but not without causing quite a few extra days. When I was in Kings Canyon, a bloke's brand new Landcruiser was getting towed. I wasn't sure about the issue, but I suspected some kind of electrical/electronic issue.

I reckon, I'm particularly sensitive to mechanical failures, because I tend to do solo here and there when I get a chance. That only because my occasional liking for unplanned trips(in terms of route and destination).
I do borrow a sat phone, if I decide to go solo too far though. It's not worth dying of hunger and thirst slowly and getting eaten by dingos afterwards.(not that I'm going to hang around to witness that :) )

[dom14]

It's also amazing how many 6 packs you can get after a week of rain , from people with solar ! Watch the hate start :)
For what it's worth I am not heavy on power , only have lights on in the van when cooking , and a dimmable led strip out side , or tilly lantetn , van fridge on gas and engal in the car , last trip to Fraser 2 weeks van battery droped from 12.4 to 11 volts without any charging

LEDs are the absolute life saving invention of the 21st century when it comes to automotive applications of it. The amount of power saving on the batteries is pretty damn useful. I'm about to replace the driving lights with LED ones as soon as I can. I couldn't find a cost effective(meaning my budget effective) one for headlights so far.

[dom14]

There is nothing worse than camping next to someone that relies on a genset. We live in an age of LED and cheap Solar setups are the way to go. Leave the genset at home mate, don't over think it. A 140amp Solar set up for less than $250 to your door and you will never use your genset again.

When parked just lift the bonnet and leave the solar connected. It will trickle whenever the sun is out. Win.

Hey Mud,
Where would you install the solar panel?
I can't think of any other spot than the roof, but with the roof rack and the crxp on it, I find it hard.

[dom14]

install a battery monitor that will tell when the batteries are low
main battery is mainly for cranking not for auxilery stuff to the camp site
so you only use second battery for this
as AB @ cuppa said get a sola pannel for charging and use

Yeah, I do have a separate dashboard battery voltage indicator for the auxiliary battery. But, I'm not too sure whether it qualifies as a battery monitor system though. Since I'm an idiot who happens to day dream behind a the wheel a lot(not at high speed though) :D, I need an idiot proof monitoring system.
That means, I need to install a buzzer that wakes me up when the aux battery voltage drops below 11V or something. Not too hard to wire up something like that, but there're already too many wires and alarms inside the dashboard for oil pressure alarm and engine overheat alarm, etc etc. :1087:
:D

[threedogs]

Now its turned into a solar debate, lol
As for where to fix your panels , run a 50amp anderson plug from your aux battery to
the front of your patrol and similar plug at the rear, you will need to "chase "the sun as the day goes on so
having them fixed is not ideal as what your trying to stop working hard {fridge} is parked in the sun as well.
I only use an 80 watt panel, I have 115 ah DC as my aux and a 100AH in the camper, which gets charged on the way to camp.
Camp lighting is via a 10 watt flood cool white led, plenty of light,will light a decent bachyard. I have yet to run out of 12v power .
Not sure what others use but I have plenty of light, cold beer even tunes if needed. Maybe some use too much 12v
at camp. Just make sure nothing come off your start battery , leave it for starting only.
You should not get a flat start battery if your set up is right, ever

[dom14]

Now its turned into a solar debate, lol
As for where to fix your panels , run a 50amp anderson plug from your aux battery to
the front of your patrol and similar plug at the rear, you will need to "chase "the sun as the day goes on so
having them fixed is not ideal as what your trying to stop working hard {fridge} is parked in the sun as well.
I only use an 80 watt panel, I have 115 ah DC as my aux and a 100AH in the camper, which gets charged on the way to camp.
Camp lighting is via a 10 watt flood cool white led, plenty of light,will light a decent bachyard. I have yet to run out of 12v power .
Not sure what others use but I have plenty of light, cold beer even tunes if needed. Maybe some use too much 12v
at camp. Just make sure nothing come off your start battery , leave it for starting only.
You should not get a flat start battery if your set up is right, ever

Downside of using a mower engine for an alternator+mower engine combination is the noise of the engine.
The noise factor would be way beyond the average generator. Generators usually come up with good muffler designs.
Coming up with a muffler system for the mower engine is the real challenge, I reckon. Building an alternator+mower engine gennie isn't that hard.

Another thing I need to worry about is that car alternators are always fitted axle parallel to the ground.
I'm not sure whether the stator and the bearing system design in alternators can handle being perpendicular to the ground.
Because in that position gravity works on the bearings and the stator. I'm wondering whether it causes early failure of the stator and the bearings.
I'm worried about the stator, more than the bearings(bearings are easily replaceable).
Either way, it's a real interesting project for me to attempt.

Threedogs, thanks for giving me the idea mate.

I'm still waiting to hear how you guys fix a 150W solar panel on moving fourby.
I'm guessing, most of you guys either compromise the roof space or carry the solar panel inside the car, folded?!!

I like the idea of converting the bonnet space into a solar panel space. I don't know whether it's legal or not though(reflection issues)

BTW, threedogs, you can have the panel fixed and with a sliding angle bracket to allow it move 0 to 90 degrees as the sun moves through the sky.
What I don't know is that whether the vibration of the car body affects the life of the solar panel.

[threedogs]

Its a comutator not a stator, If you go ahead dig a hole for it.
and place a piece of sheet steel over the hole, Belt drive is easy enough
I think, see how you go, as stated only use at camp if neccessary and no one is around.
Im like most and deplore ppl using a genset at camp.
Can you imagine how that would go down on the banks of the Murray, sound will travel up and down stream
Very annoying, and ppl will get upset big time, even an hour on the chainsaw is a pain in the butt
Give me a noisey solar panel anytime lol

[dom14]

Its a comutator not a stator, If you go ahead dig a hole for it.
and place a piece of sheet steel over the hole, Belt drive is easy enough
I think, see how you go, as stated only use at camp if neccessary and no one is around.
Im like most and deplore ppl using a genset at camp.
Can you imagine how that would go down on the banks of the Murray, sound will travel up and down stream
Very annoying, and ppl will get upset big time, even an hour on the chainsaw is a pain in the butt

Hi threedogs,
I meant the rotor, not the stator(my bad).
It's a nomenclature thing, I think. DC motors and DC generators(dynamos in old day cars) used commutators.
Dynamos produced DC, which they thought an advantage as the cars accessories use DC.
When they discovered that alternators can produce far more electrical power for the same size by winding them to produce three phase electricity
they decided to dump the dynamos. The technology to convert three phase electricity to DC(rectifier diodes) was already around and alternators replaced the
dynamos once for all. The downside was that alternators bridge rectifier eventually fails. Having said that dynamos had it's issues as well due to having brushes and they wear out
in no time as well. Modern alternators still use brushes anyway(to supply the current to the rotating magnetic field coil, which is the rotor). But the brushes in the automotive alternator don't wear out as quickly as dynamo brushes because of the less current pass through(correct me if I'm wrong). They call the induction coil pack as a stators in alternators. The reason I think because the stator is stationary. Commutator is moving part(so it commutes). Why do they call the moving part of the automotive alternator a rotor, not a commutator? I have no idea.
But in auto electrical vernacular here, I think around here they do anyway(as you mentioned above).

BTW, I've never used my generator around areas where lot of other campers camp. In rare occasions when I do, it's usually off season, isolated areas. I know, how annoying the noise can be for campers who enjoys the quietness of the nature. For that reason, I always resort to my batteries.

[threedogs]

Im probably wrong my son is Auto lec and I worked at a rewinging place for ages'
So what have you decided to do, hook up an alternator to the motor, just to see if you can?

[dom14]

I found these articles and videos about how to deal with the noise issue of such mower engine projects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxkTi0NWOII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ao2VnlsYc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHbWDE7Yx3c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjeJaqahP3E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCIKE8Rq4QY



http://www.theflyingbanana.com/mufflers.htm

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?106279-How-to-make-a-silencer-for-an-exhaust

[dom14]

Im probably wrong my son is Auto lec and I worked at a rewinging place for ages'
So what have you decided to do, hook up an alternator to the motor, just to see if you can?

I have a mower motor, but no alternator. I'm hunting for an el cheapo for the project. I prefer an alternator with an internal regulator(as well as rectifier).
Just looking around to see what they have on the internet. Even a knackered one for almost nothing will do. I can fix it up. Let me know if you have a one hanging around.

Probably they call the same thing in DC units as commutators and in AC units as stators, for the reason of distinguishing the two different type of units.
So, when we talk about a stator it's about alternators and when we talk about a commutator it's about dynamos. A school thing I reckon.
We probably don't use that terminology in everyday auto electrical language. I was wrong for sure. I was talking about a rotating stator. There's no such animal. :D