Off road driving technique

[Cuppa]

A question to those more experienced than me.

When driving up bumpy & rutted hills I sometimes find that the throttle is ‘surging’ because of my foot bouncing a little on the accelerator pedal. I know some folk with narrower cars wedge their knee against the door to keep things more steady, but the Patrol is a bit too wide to do that (at least for me). Seems to be more of an issue when revs are a above about 2500rpm. What do you do?

[Winnie]

That is exactly what the hand throttle is for. Or jam your foot hard up against the kick panel and it is more steady.

[the evil twin]

Lotsa options depending;
1. Suck it up
2. Use the hand throttle (all real 4X's have one, shopping trolleys don't)
3. Put a bit of sponge behind the pedal between it and the floor (esp if you have a PIA 'fly by wire' like the ZD30's)
4. Change your foot position so you are rolling onto the pedal rather than pressing it
5. Heavier return spring
6. Get your missus to drive (hehehe just jokin')
7. Choose a better line (jokin' again... most of the time)

[threedogs]

some ppl call this "Toyota lurch", can get quite comical if it gets out of hand,
but all I would suggest is instead of using your ankle use your foot sideways as the others said jammed against the kick panel
Handle throttles are Ok for some circumstances but not all I'm afraid
an acreditted course with a decent instructor will sort you out

[Woof]

Sponge is the go, one of those ones you use for washing cars

[the evil twin]

Sponge is the go, one of those ones you use for washing cars

...plus in an emergency dump situation (after trying to keep up) ZD30 owners can use it to wipe their rrse if the paper is still on the line drying.

[Cuppa]

Ah ha! A cross-threaded comment, ET.

Is there no end to this man’s sophistication?!

[mudnut]

You got me, Cuppa. I deleted the post.

[Cuppa]

You got me, Cuppa. I deleted the post.

’tis alright MN, I was referring to the ever increasing sophistication of our illustrious jester ET (otherwise known as TET). The cross threaded humour is a definite step upward .............. I think? :)

[the evil twin]

Hehehehe... seriously tho for a minute ( a short one)...

Try the sponge, it works a treat usually and doesn't cost anything to try.
I didn't have much choice on my CRD, some of the noise pedals on those suckers are as skittish as Liberal back bencher.
Mine had a change out and the new pedal was one of the worst for it I've ever driven.

[Cuppa]

(otherwise known as TET)

I was trying to think how I could suggest that TET, as well as being an abbreviated form of The Evil Twin, may also be an abbreviated form of TETanus, but we all know that ET’s no arsehole don’t we. :)

[the evil twin]

snip... but we all know that ET’s no arsehole don’t we. :)

Standby... I'm working on it

[Winnie]

Cuppa does your car have a hand throttle?

[Cuppa]

Yep, sure does Winnie (it ain’t no ‘shopping trolley’).

[lucus30]

Mine doesn't have one though wish it did

[Winnie]

Yep, sure does Winnie (it ain’t no ‘shopping trolley’).

There is the answer to your problem.

[mudnut]

It is very disconcerting to use the hand throttle on rough terrain, for the first couple of times. I had my feet hovering near the clutch and brake.

[Cuppa]

It is very disconcerting to use the hand throttle on rough terrain, for the first couple of times. I had my feet hovering near the clutch and brake.

Yeah I reckon it might take a bit of practice. Gotta know what revs you’re gonna need before you need them. That only comes from experience. Might try the sponge first.

[Winnie]

Set it at 2 grand and you can't go wrong... Cover it with your foot if you have to.

[Rock Trol]

I might have to try the sponge as well. Mine's as jumpy as a rabbit when its at 2500rpm in lower gears. If you need to give it the berries will the sponge allow you to get the car revving?

[Punderhead]

Me personally I hate the hand throttle. While I have used it I few times, I much prefer to wedge my foot against the door in such a way that I can roll my foot on the throttle. I find I can keep it steady in this way, and is much easier to make fine adjustments to the throttle.

Cheers

[lhurley]

I dont like the idea of a hand throttle, to easy for something to go wrong for my liking.

Sometimes your foot will bounce, but once you get used it to youll find it doesnt do it as much.

I personally put my weight on my heel then use my ankle to control the speed, whilst also holding my foot still. Same deal as a long drive with no cruise control, you get used to holding your foot exactly where you want it. Which ever way you go, practice helps. Wheel time is the key

[lucus30]

I find it doesn't happen when your foot is flat to the floor ha ha

[Punderhead]

I find it doesn't happen when your foot is flat to the floor ha ha winner for the best technique yet hahaha

[pearcey]

G`day Cuppa
I`ved always had my foot against the kick panel and rolled my foot on the throttle. If you use the hand throttle you can over ride it if more revs are needed as it`s designed so you can do that . If the kick panel is too far away you could build it out a little with a piece of timber.

[Patrol'n]

I tend to drive with my knee against the door, heel on the floor in front and slightly left of the go pedal and use the right side of my foot behind my toes on the bottom of the pedal so it limits the movement of my foot when bouncing. When I need more throttle I can roll my foot across the pedal to the ball of my foot and further depress the peddle. Kind of hard to describe, as I type it, but works for me.

[happygu]

I tend to drive with my knee against the door, heel on the floor in front and slightly left of the go pedal and use the right side of my foot behind my toes on the bottom of the pedal so it limits the movement of my foot when bouncing. When I need more throttle I can roll my foot across the pedal to the ball of my foot and further depress the peddle. Kind of hard to describe, as I type it, but works for me.


I kinda understand, as this works for me too

[happygu]

Cuppa,

It is also a bit more practicing too .... great excuse for it .......

Just be thankful you have the 4.2 ..... When I had my 4.2, I found it extremely controllable and never really had too many issues after I got used to the way it drove through the rough stuff, as the motor was entirely predictable due to the fairly linear torque curve.
In the end I knew that motor inside out, after driving it all over the place, in all sorts of conditions ... how much you could lug it, how much throttle pressure to apply, etc, etc

The 3 Litre was a different kettle of fish, and I couldn't believe how bad I was at driving it in slow rough conditions when I first got it, as sometimes it would pull out just nicely, and the next time it would just stall ... and trying to keep a steady pace in the rough .... my wife used to just turn and look at me and ask me if I had forgotten how to drive as it was like driving a pogo stick - that's how sensitive and unpredictable the throttle can be .... my reply was well you have a go, and tell me how to do it better

Nowdays after getting used to it and adjusting my style, I think I can now drive it just as good, and probably much better .... I do wedge my knee against the door, my foot against the kick panel, my heel in the floor, and roll the foot over the pedal, but I have been doing it that long now, I don't even give it a thought...

As others have said give this method a try, and persist with it, even if it feels a little strange at first

Mic

[TroutNut]

Im not trying to be the smartest bloke here, but the hand throttle is for dealing with stalls or forced stops on steep uphill inclines, when you have to restart and it's too dangerous to take your foot off the brake to flick it over to the throttle. Even pressing the clutch in when in this predicament can be dangerous in case you lose the machine backward. Best suited to the torque of a diesel for this, but can be done with petrol. Hand throttle is not for driving with, and would be even harder to control when you're getting bounced around. I can't believe what im reading! Have you guys been out bush yet or bloody what!

[Clunk]

Have you guys been out bush yet or bloody what!

No mate, never....... whats out bush?

I use mine for cruising down freeways at 150kph, is that the wrong thing to do?

[mudnut]

Im not trying to be the smartest bloke here, but the hand throttle is for dealing with stalls or forced stops on steep uphill inclines, when you have to restart and it's too dangerous to take your foot off the brake to flick it over to the throttle. Even pressing the clutch in when in this predicament can be dangerous in case you lose the machine backward. Best suited to the torque of a diesel for this, but can be done with petrol. Hand throttle is not for driving with, and would be even harder to control when you're getting bounced around. I can't believe what im reading! Have you guys been out bush yet or bloody what!

He could be right about the driving bit as the GQ owners manual on page 4-11 : Do Not Drive with the throttle knob pulled out, (Twice). On page 4-12 it states: Avoid driving with the throttle/ idling knob pulled out.

I've only ever used it to bump up the revs marginally anyway.

[Ben-e-boy]

Hand throttle is not for driving with, and would be even harder to control when you're getting bounced around. I can't believe what im reading! Have you guys been out bush yet or bloody what!

You don't use the hand throttle like you would the accelerator. You set it up so you're covered when your foot bounces off the throttle helping preventing a stall and keeping some sort of control

[Clunk]

Im not trying to be the smartest bloke here, but the hand throttle is for dealing with stalls or forced stops on steep uphill inclines, when you have to restart and it's too dangerous to take your foot off the brake to flick it over to the throttle. Even pressing the clutch in when in this predicament can be dangerous in case you lose the machine backward. Best suited to the torque of a diesel for this, but can be done with petrol. Hand throttle is not for driving with, and would be even harder to control when you're getting bounced around. I can't believe what im reading! Have you guys been out bush yet or bloody what!

So would you not use the handbrake before removing foot from brake pedal to stop yourself from rolling back?

[happygu]

So would you not use the handbrake before removing foot from brake pedal to stop yourself from rolling back?

I only used my hand throttle on my 4.2 to make it idle properly ...... don't need that sort of gear on a 3 Litre tech whizzo - it just always works ( maybe I shouldn't have said that ... touch wood somewhere .... :Yahoo!: )


Handbrakes are for girls, and not real 4wdrivers.....:p

[Clunk]

I only used my hand throttle on my 4.2 to make it idle properly ...... don't need that sort of gear on a 3 Litre tech whizzo - it just always works ( maybe I shouldn't have said that ... touch wood somewhere .... :Yahoo!: )


Handbrakes are for girls, and not real 4wdrivers.....:p

Yeah util your wheezing 4 potter goes kaaboom bwahahahaha

I only use the handrake for doing 360s in Woolies carparks ;)

[Clunk]

He could be right about the driving bit as the GQ owners manual on page 4-11 : Do Not Drive with the throttle knob pulled out, (Twice). On page 4-12 it states: Avoid driving with the throttle/ idling knob pulled out.

I've only ever used it to bump up the revs marginally anyway.

So if you've got an owners manual, why haven't you scanned it in and posted it up on the forum?

[TroutNut]

So would you not use the handbrake before removing foot from brake pedal to stop yourself from rolling back?

That's suited to general driving around town, doing hill-starts. The handbrake is a set of shoes in a single drum, im looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.



For the doubtful, take a 4wding course and you'll learn that the hand throttle is for one purpose and one only, and that's to gain immediate rpm at the turn of the ignition key to gain forward momentum up massive inclines. Takes practice with the brake control to get it right without stalling again, especially without diesel, but it's for situations where engaging the clutch is for those with a death wish, and letting go of the brake pedal is too dangerous.
Telling someone to use the hand throttle when they're bouncing around means taking they right hand off the steering.

[graeme1969]

The defence force 4wd course that I did a few years ago in hiluxes and landrovers had us doing stalled hill starts on ridiculously steep and rough tracks using the torque from the starter motor to get moving again. They would get us to put it into first gear, release the park brake, foot off brake (which was a bit of an uncomfortable feeling), then hit the key and away you went. It worked really well on both types of vehicles for everyone over the three or four days and seemed like a way of getting mobile back up hill while removing the risk of rolling backwards.

[Clunk]

That's suited to general driving around town, doing hill-starts. The handbrake is a set of shoes in a single drum, im looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.



For the doubtful, take a 4wding course and you'll learn that the hand throttle is for one purpose and one only, and that's to gain immediate rpm at the turn of the ignition key to gain forward momentum up massive inclines. Takes practice with the brake control to get it right without stalling again, especially without diesel, but it's for situations where engaging the clutch is for those with a death wish, and letting go of the brake pedal is too dangerous.
Telling someone to use the hand throttle when they're bouncing around means taking they right hand off the steering.

I dont doubt what you're saying but im not sure if you're getting what others are saying...... and yes I have been on a 4wding course, no mention was ever made about the use of hand throttle. It may or may not have had something to do with most new vehicles not having them any more, so controlling hill starts were done with use of handbrake...... unless of course you have a Toyota

[Bigcol]

That's suited to general driving around town, doing hill-starts. The handbrake is a set of shoes in a single drum, im looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.
For the doubtful, take a 4wding course and you'll learn that the hand throttle is for one purpose and one only, and that's to gain immediate rpm at the turn of the ignition key to gain forward momentum up massive inclines. Takes practice with the brake control to get it right without stalling again, especially without diesel, but it's for situations where engaging the clutch is for those with a death wish, and letting go of the brake pedal is too dangerous.
Telling someone to use the hand throttle when they're bouncing around means taking they right hand off the steering.

hhhhmmmmmmmmm
dunno who taught you that - For the doubtful, take a 4wding course and you'll learn that the hand throttle is for one purpose and one only, and that's to gain immediate rpm at the turn of the ignition key to gain forward momentum up massive inclines. - but I personally think their full of it.........

hand throttle was NOT designed to get you to "gain forward momentum up massive inclines"
it was designed to give you the ability to use the throttle WITHOUT using your feet - ever heard of the old Capstan Winch - or a PTO........??? you use a hand throttle for those

same thoughts, but from a different angle
looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.
mate, if your in THIS situation, you have OTHER things to worry about - like just HOW did you get in this predicament......

I have done this once - within the first 6 months of having a 4wd. 30 yrs ago on a bitch of a hill down south that was 35-40% and it was wet and muddy and had ruts in the track - and no flaming hand throttle, but the hand brake worked well, thank duck


if driving off road on some tracks, I now drive with the hand throttle pulled out and locked (turn the knob, it locks at whatever setting you pull it out to) at say - 1500 / 2000 RPM maybe even 2500RPM depending on the situation and have my foot OFF the accelerator, and you have an easy "non bouncing" constant feed to the engine

BTW Clunky, I also used to use my hand throttle as a cheap cruise control on my GQ on long distances........... hahhahahahahaha

[Clunk]

The defence force 4wd course that I did a few years ago in hiluxes and landrovers had us doing stalled hill starts on ridiculously steep and rough tracks using the torque from the starter motor to get moving again. They would get us to put it into first gear, release the park brake, foot off brake (which was a bit of an uncomfortable feeling), then hit the key and away you went. It worked really well on both types of vehicles for everyone over the three or four days and seemed like a way of getting mobile back up hill while removing the risk of rolling backwards.

Thats what we were taught in the 4wd course I did......... doesn't quite work in an auto though lol

Talking of autos and their ability of not stalling, whats the point of the hand throttle?

[mudnut]

So if you've got an owners manual, why haven't you scanned it in and posted it up on the forum?

Because I'm a selfish, lazy bastard. :) Oh and I haven't got a modern scanner so that makes me a fish bum as well.

[Clunk]

Because I'm a selfish, lazy bastard. :) Oh and I haven't got a modern scanner so that makes me a fish bum as well.

Got a camera havent you?hahaha

[TroutNut]

The defence force 4wd course that I did a few years ago in hiluxes and landrovers had us doing stalled hill starts on ridiculously steep and rough tracks using the torque from the starter motor to get moving again. They would get us to put it into first gear, release the park brake, foot off brake (which was a bit of an uncomfortable feeling), then hit the key and away you went. It worked really well on both types of vehicles for everyone over the three or four days and seemed like a way of getting mobile back up hill while removing the risk of rolling backwards.

Sounds like the one. Getting into first gear has to be done, dangerous though it is. I was taught to open the hand throttle, flick the key, then switch from brake to accelerator as the car surged forward under power.

[graeme1969]

[QUOTE=Clunk;590505]Thats what we were taught in the 4wd course I did......... doesn't quite work in an auto though lol

I know for sure that we used that method for doing restarts going downhill both forward and reverse, and I am sure that we did it going uphill as well, but the memory is a bit fuzzy on that. The extra load on the starter to go uphill would be a worry, bit if the option to reverse down is more dangerous than to head up, I am pretty sure the starter would have to take a hit.

[mudnut]

Got a camera havent you?hahaha

The answer is yes I do. Have you seen post #33 in the rb30 facts figures and helpful hints thread yet. That is the best quality close-up my little camera can do:(

[the evil twin]

snip...
Im not trying to be the smartest bloke here, but the hand throttle is for dealing with stalls or forced stops on steep uphill inclines, when you have to restart and it's too dangerous to take your foot off the brake to flick it over to the throttle.

Uummmm... I would suggest quite a few on here have spent a day or two outside the 60 KPH zone

That is exactly the wrong way to do a stall recovery.

Stall recovery is executed from a stable stationary position against compression without your foot anywhere near the brake.

Hill start is executed from a stable stationary position without the use of foot brake except in exceptional circumstance.
Where the need for a foot brake existed the risk of breaking traction would be a very significant risk.

[TroutNut]

"hand throttle was NOT designed to get you to "gain forward momentum up massive inclines"
it was designed to give you the ability to use the throttle WITHOUT using your feet - ever heard of the old Capstan Winch - or a PTO........??? you use a hand throttle for those"


Its called a hand throttle because it's a hand throttle. We all know you don't need your feet to use it. Anytime a winch is used, an operator needs to be in the vehicle to maintain control if something snaps or otherwise goes wrong, otherwise the car goes on its own way uncontrolled. The procedure for that is simply open the bonnet to shield the person in the drivers seat from a snapped cable.

"looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.
mate, if your in THIS situation, you have OTHER things to worry about - like just HOW did you get in this predicament......"

If you're stuck in said situation, what you need to know is how to get out of it.

You sound like someone who'll end up injuring somebody else, if natural selection doesn't take its course first.

[the evil twin]

snip...
For the doubtful, take a 4wding course and you'll learn that the hand throttle is for one purpose and one only, and that's to gain immediate rpm at the turn of the ignition key to gain forward momentum up massive inclines.

Uuummmm... Bullshit, sorry, but it is... and any Instructor teaching that the "one and only purpose of a hand throttle is immediate high RPM on ign start for extreme hill starts" should be immediately stripped of accreditation assuming they hold some in the first place.

[TroutNut]

Uummmm... I would suggest quite a few on here have spent a day or two outside the 60 KPH zone

That is exactly the wrong way to do a stall recovery.

Stall recovery is executed from a stable stationary position against compression without your foot anywhere near the brake.

Hill start is executed from a stable stationary position without the use of foot brake except in exceptional circumstance.
Where the need for a foot brake existed the risk of breaking traction would be a very significant risk.

Gotta love the way you word things. 'A very significant risk' is what im getting at. Im talking about slopes where compression isn't going to hold you. I realise most 4wdriving uphill starts don't need hand throttle, im only talking about extreme cases. If you have to go somewhere you don't want to go, with a bushfire up your backside, then some slopes are your only option and not recovering from a stall isn't an option. Plenty of people go up big slopes for the fun of it, and anyone doing it needs to know how to drive. There's also plenty of dead or wheelchair bound people who didn't know what they were doing.

[TroutNut]

Uuummmm... Bullshit, sorry, but it is... and any Instructor teaching that the "one and only purpose of a hand throttle is immediate high RPM on ign start for extreme hill starts" should be immediately stripped of accreditation assuming they hold some in the first place.

So what do you think its for then, warming up your car, or cruise control? Must be one of the two, surely.

[Clunk]

So what do you think its for then, warming up your car, or cruise control? Must be one of the two, surely.

Must be for getting me bacon and egg butties warmed up quicker ;)

[the evil twin]

Must be for getting me bacon and egg butties warmed up quicker ;)


Actually I use it as a place to hang my manbag when negotiating those nasty speed bumps at Bunnings

[Clunk]

Actually I use it as a place to hang my manbag when negotiating those nasty speed bumps at Bunnings

Woah slow down there mate, that just seems a wee bit adventurous for my liking

[cgm]

If no one cares I might get back on track?? If you do care about staying off topic for what Cuppa asked, then well ... :)

I've never had a truck with a hand throttle and agree with the many different descriptions of basically the same thing. Even without the hand throttle you can get used to positioning yourself and keeping it somewhat stable most of the time. Some days things will take you by surprise and you won't!

The hand throttle sounds good to me to have a slightly higher base to avoid stalling. But I think that would also take time to get used to. Don't think I'd want it set too high, but can see the logic in using it.

So, the conclusion to all this (which was also mentioned several times above)? Get out and practice! Then get out some more. Try some of the ideas from above and after a while you will have a system that works for you. If not, get out some more and eventually you will. You'll feel comfortable and do whatever it is you do and it will work without thinkimg about it. Kind of like learning to change gears really?? Can be awkward for learners but with time it just happens.

So, when are we going next? :)

[Clunk]

Yep, I personally prefer to keep me foot wedged up against the kick panel, irrespective of whether im driving the auto or the manual. However, I have also used the hand throttle locked in for a slow even controlled ascent. Might even try the sponge one day, for shits n giggles

[Clunk]

If no one cares I might get back on track?? If you do care about staying off topic for what Cuppa asked, then well ... :)


Spoilsport

[Drewboyaus]

Gotta love the way you word things. 'A very significant risk' is what im getting at. Im talking about slopes where compression isn't going to hold you. I realise most 4wdriving uphill starts don't need hand throttle, im only talking about extreme cases. If you have to go somewhere you don't want to go, with a bushfire up your backside, then some slopes are your only option and not recovering from a stall isn't an option. Plenty of people go up big slopes for the fun of it, and anyone doing it needs to know how to drive. There's also plenty of dead or wheelchair bound people who didn't know what they were doing.

Mate , ET is on the money. I have never been on a 4wd course that teaches anything about a forward hill start and hand throttle (and I have been on a few). That is completely incorrect driving technique. Stalled on a steep hill requires correct use of the stall recovery technique which requires you to descend the hill backwards to a flat position where you can safely make another attempt at said hill. I've driven some ridiculous gradients and even the (relative lack of) compression in my petrol has held me on those slopes enough to complete a stall recovery safely. In extreme cases where it is not safe to descend, it's out with the winch.
A FORWARD HILL/HANDBRAKE START IS A DANGEROUS PRACTISE EVEN ON MILD HILLS.
I would suggest you take a refresher course on correct driving techniques before giving dangerous advice to others.

The hand throttle is used to ascend hills (as Winnie pointed out right at the beginning of this thread) by setting the RPM at the bottom of the climb and is a good way to help smooth out any surging. Personally, I generally use the wedged knee technique as also described in this thread as it gives me a little more fine throttle control. Sometimes I use a bit of a combination of the two......hand throttle and a little bit of brake or throttle as required.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[threedogs]

My troopy had a hand throttle ,,,,,,for rocky,, slow,,, even work it was fantastic, I never used it for going up or down a hill
Did freak some mates out once when I jumped out of the Troopy and started giving hand signals in front of the 4x4, mates following thought
who the hell is driving TDs 4x4 lol, was a carpark type situation, Firth Park to be exact
Try not to form bad habits they will linger

[TroutNut]

Mate , ET is on the money. I have never been on a 4wd course that teaches anything about a forward hill start and hand throttle (and I have been on a few). That is completely incorrect driving technique. Stalled on a steep hill requires correct use of the stall recovery technique which requires you to descend the hill backwards to a flat position where you can safely make another attempt at said hill. I've driven some ridiculous gradients and even the (relative lack of) compression in my petrol has held me on those slopes enough to complete a stall recovery safely. In extreme cases where it is not safe to descend, it's out with the winch.
A FORWARD HILL/HANDBRAKE START IS A DANGEROUS PRACTISE EVEN ON MILD HILLS.
I would suggest you take a refresher course on correct driving techniques before giving dangerous advice to others.

The hand throttle is used to ascend hills (as Winnie pointed out right at the beginning of this thread) by setting the RPM at the bottom of the climb and is a good way to help smooth out any surging. Personally, I generally use the wedged knee technique as also described in this thread as it gives me a little more fine throttle control. Sometimes I use a bit of a combination of the two......hand throttle and a little bit of brake or throttle as required.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

So now im the one giving dangerous advice!! Sometimes decending backward isn't an option, and winches don't come in 100m+.
There seems to be a few class clowns here, or maybe just self designated smartarses who crave the attention.

I did my 4wdriving course with Peter Reynolds during my time in the emergency services. He has an OAM for his 4wd training services for his various training of government departments. He trains a lot of our ES departments. I think he's got a little more credibility than you, and anyone else who doesn't seem to know what the little stick that makes the engine rev is for other than being a bit of a novelty.
Maybe you'd like to google him, all you smartarses and expert keyboard jockeys. Im sure he'd even take the time to have a chat with you on the phone, that'd be 0428 623458

[BigRAWesty]

So now im the one giving dangerous advice!! Sometimes decending backward isn't an option, and winches don't come in 100m+. There seems to be a few class clowns here, or maybe just self designated smartarses who crave the attention. I did my 4wdriving course with Peter Reynolds during my time in the emergency services. He has an OAM for his 4wd training services for his various training of government departments. He trains a lot of our ES departments. I think he's got a little more credibility than you, and anyone else who doesn't seem to know what the little stick that makes the engine rev is for other than being a bit of a novelty. Maybe you'd like to google him, all you smartarses and expert keyboard jockeys. Im sure he'd even take the time to have a chat with you on the phone, that'd be 0428 623458

Geese mate. If someone told you to jump of a tall building with a sheet as a parachute because they saw someone do it before, would you??

Just because you got taught 1 technique (what seems a while ago) doesn't mean it is still taught as good practice.

I've personally haven't done any courses so won't weigh in on who's right or wrong.
But on a side note you should be equipped for your trip.. If you know you'll be doing 100+ meter tows then you should have enough straps to cover that distance as no, winches don't come in 100m lengths.

But also what you got taught maybe be relevant to area and terrain. That doesn't make it right australia wind.
You try your technique on a 50 degree sand hill. It won't work. So.. You either go backwards, or winch forward.

[TroutNut]

As with everything, it's horses for courses mate. I never said one size fits all.

[happygu]

As with everything, it's horses for courses mate. I never said one size fits all.

Excellent advice ..... :D

[BigRAWesty]

As with everything, it's horses for courses mate. I never said one size fits all.

But you did. You said the other blokes advice was wrong.
It's not. It's different.

[katwoman]

Fight, fight, fight.
Um, sorry I have nothing useful to add. PML.
I love it when BDS comes into play.

[jack]

Fight, fight, fight.
Um, sorry I have nothing useful to add. PML.
I love it when BDS comes into play.

Got enough popcorn?

[happygu]

We do need to play nice everyone ....

Troutnut definitely has a technique I have never used, as I never really utilized the Hand Throttle is this way, but it may be something that could be useful it certain situations so like everything on the internet - you cant take it as the only way to do things just because someone says so, but I believe that in certain situations this would be handy. The hardest part about getting forward momentum on as steep uphill section is that first moment of takeoff, where the engine is working its hardest to try ands move 3 tonnes of weight.

I know my little 3 Litre doesn't like key-starting up a steep hill as there isn't enough low down torque to get moving like the 4.2, so I don't tend to try this anymore, but I have successfully done this numerous times in the old 4.2 .... even using the hand throttle to just boost the idle speed a little

Mic

[mudnut]

We do need to play nice everyone ....



I know my little 3 Litre doesn't like key-starting up a steep hill as there isn't enough low down torque to get moving like the 4.2, so I don't tend to try this anymore, but I have successfully done this numerous times in the old 4.2 .... even using the hand throttle to just boost the idle speed a little

Mic

I would say that might be the case with a stock RB30. The small engine has very limited compression and torque.

[taslucas]

The purpose of the hand throttle is to maintain a higher, constant rev without using the foot throttle. The uses for this are numerous.

Tractors have hand throttles and I'm pretty sure they're nothing to do with 4wding hill starts.


I pull my hand throttle on slightly and leave it on (while still using the foot throttle normally) until the old tb warms up. So it's used basically as a choke.

[threedogs]

Which vehicles [4x4s] have a hand throttle as standard equipemnent
Land rovers are I and 75s and 60s TOymotos because you can buy a PTO
that bolts to the tranfers case to run either a capstan or pto style winch.
Not 100% sure if early rangie had them as well.

Did early G60s have a PTO option or any M class patrol even the mighty Datsuns

[the evil twin]

snip...

For the doubtful, take a 4wding course and you'll learn that the hand throttle is for one purpose and one only, and that's to gain immediate rpm at the turn of the ignition key to gain forward momentum up massive inclines.


Uuummmm... Bullshit, sorry, but it is... and any Instructor teaching that the "one and only purpose of a hand throttle is immediate high RPM on ign start for extreme hill starts" should be immediately stripped of accreditation assuming they hold some in the first place.

Sigh...

Firstly, I apologise for snips as they often change context, I didn't think so in this case, but maybe you read it that my snip changed the intent of your wording and reacted.

Secondly, I reiterate my view that there is no way any competent 4WD instructor should instruct a method as you posted.

So, Dude, take a chill pill, stop the petty name calling and reread what you posted and the many replies.

Purely as an offer to others who may not be aware of the technique under discussion and as per Emergency Management Australia manuals .
There is a use (not sole use) for hand throttle hill starts (Hill start and is NOT appropriate what I interpreted as 'massive inclines' but my bad if I'm wrong) involves setting the hand throttle with the engine running (not so it immediately leaps to high revs on IGN start)

The EMA technique for Hand Throttle Hill Start is paraphrased as follows.
Vehicle stationary,
Hand Brake applied
1st gear, L4, clutch depressed
Start engine and increase RPM to approx 1500 - 2000 RPM with hand throttle
Engage Clutch to friction point
Release Hand brake
Gently coordinate release of foot brake and clutch avoiding wheelspin.
DO NOT ride the clutch

Now, hopefully the above makes everybody happy but I doubt it and as I'm late for either my Advanced Clown Training (struggling) or next 4WD Course... can't remember which as dementia is a curse... I'll take my passive aggressive, disingenuous arse for a cuppa, a Bex and a Poppy Nap :eck05:

[the evil twin]

Which vehicles [4x4s] have a hand throttle as standard equipemnent
Land rovers are I and 75s and 60s TOymotos because you can buy a PTO
that bolts to the tranfers case to run either a capstan or pto style winch.
Not 100% sure if early rangie had them as well.

Did early G60s have a PTO option or any M class patrol even the mighty Datsuns

5 of my 6 Patrols (MQ petty and diesel, GQ diesel and petty and GU 4.2) had/have a hand throttle.
Only the fly by wire ZD30 did not altho they do have a Fast Idle switch which is a different critter and application
All of the 6 cylinder 4.2 Tojo's for SES have them.
None of the above have provision for PTO, cept maybe my Diesel MQ but sooo long ago now I forget.
All of the 4X stuff in the military had hand throttles but not all had PTO and that was also a looong time ago for me

[threedogs]

Might be old school teachings as I cant recall any new 4x4
having a handthrottle as OE . I lot of my mates are instructors
and I must admit hand throttles dont come up often in any conversations
we have around a fire

[Bob]

My 98 4.5L GU does not have a Hand Throttle.
To answer the original question from Cuppa I jam my right leg and foot against the side wall to help control throttle movement by my foot.

[the evil twin]

Might be old school teachings as I cant recall any new 4x4
having a handthrottle as OE . I lot of my mates are intructors
and I must admit hand throttles dont come up often in any conversations
we have around a fire

Hiya TD

Yeah, wouldn't suprise me at all.

Each State and many of the Agencies within States will be different.

Currently in WA we present the same Techniques course to Fireys and Emergency Service members.
After the Techniques course SES continue with Recovery and ATU courses but the Fireys do not.
The Police training is different from the start and I haven't sat on one of their courses for a while now.
I think WA Ambos use outside providers... dunno... must find out actually

Nationally...
Whilst my mob don't have to align with the national competencies like the Training Providers whenever ours are the same as the basic civilian TLIC and RIIVEH packages attendees get the appropriate Statements of Attainments.
Hand Throttle starts have been long removed from the national competencies as well or at least the ones on our RTO scope.
Mainly because so few reccy vehicles have them now I guess plus all the newer stuff is getting Hill Start Assist and Descent Control

I still demonstrate Hand Throttle starts as part of non-assessable skills if a vehicle has one.
The technique also still appears in a lot of Booklets and Manuals such as EMA or at least the ones I have.

[Clunk]

So now im the one giving dangerous advice!! Sometimes decending backward isn't an option, and winches don't come in 100m+.
There seems to be a few class clowns here, or maybe just self designated smartarses who crave the attention.

I did my 4wdriving course with Peter Reynolds during my time in the emergency services. He has an OAM for his 4wd training services for his various training of government departments. He trains a lot of our ES departments. I think he's got a little more credibility than you, and anyone else who doesn't seem to know what the little stick that makes the engine rev is for other than being a bit of a novelty.
Maybe you'd like to google him, all you smartarses and expert keyboard jockeys. Im sure he'd even take the time to have a chat with you on the phone, that'd be 0428 623458

Wow, sounds like someone is in need of a hug.

[threedogs]

Its a shame all courses are not the same as I can be trained the same as someone in Tassie or Perth.
I do recall there was a push for it , as a mate was El Prezidante of 4wd Vic, but nothing became of it
and each state body wanted their model to be the one to use.
But hey jam your foot against the kick panel and rock your foot
Surely there are accredited courses or clubs in Ballarat you can join.
Keyboard offroad training Really lol

[Drewboyaus]

So now im the one giving dangerous advice!! Sometimes decending backward isn't an option, and winches don't come in 100m+. There seems to be a few class clowns here

Settle petal.
The advice you have given may be useful in the hands of an experienced 4wder in extreme circumstances but is entirely inappropriate to be potentially putting that technique in the hands of a novice. That has every chance of going seriously pear shaped.
There is such thing as a winch extension strap too that most people would have in their recovery kit. Rarely have I not been able to find something within its range to winch from.

Having completed the 4wd Vic advanced training a couple of years ago, the technique you describe was never once discussed.

And on the subject of class clowns:
Yes, yes there are, aren't there........

Anyway, life goes on.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ova50]

A question to those more experienced than me.

When driving up bumpy & rutted hills I sometimes find that the throttle is ‘surging’ because of my foot bouncing a little on the accelerator pedal. I know some folk with narrower cars wedge their knee against the door to keep things more steady, but the Patrol is a bit too wide to do that (at least for me). Seems to be more of an issue when revs are a above about 2500rpm. What do you do?


Cuppa, I asked a similar question here about a year back after having a lot of trouble with the "pedal bounce" on the rough stuff.

The advice I got from Winnie, Threedogs, Nisshead & Ihurley was to try and wedge my foot against the kick panel.
What the guys suggested gave me a good starting point.

I tried a number of different positions with my foot and found that the one that suits me was to wedge my heal against the kick panel and floor and have the ball of my foot on the throttle pedal.
I can now control the throttle and have eliminate most of the bounce using this method.
:cheers:

[Clunk]

Settle petal.

Having completed the 4wd Vic advanced training a couple of years ago, the technique you describe was never once discussed.

And on the subject of class clowns:
Yes, yes there are, aren't there........

Anyway, life goes on.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


Don't worry Drew, I won't hold it against you. It's nice to see a little comic relief amongst all the seriousness from some folk on here ;)

[Drewboyaus]

................



56490

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[Bigcol]

"hand throttle was NOT designed to get you to "gain forward momentum up massive inclines"
it was designed to give you the ability to use the throttle WITHOUT using your feet - ever heard of the old Capstan Winch - or a PTO........??? you use a hand throttle for those"


Its called a hand throttle because it's a hand throttle. We all know you don't need your feet to use it. Anytime a winch is used, an operator needs to be in the vehicle to maintain control if something snaps or otherwise goes wrong, otherwise the car goes on its own way uncontrolled. The procedure for that is simply open the bonnet to shield the person in the drivers seat from a snapped cable.

"looking at situations where you're stuck stationary on dangerous slopes when you need the grip of four calipers on the disc/drums.
mate, if your in THIS situation, you have OTHER things to worry about - like just HOW did you get in this predicament......"

If you're stuck in said situation, what you need to know is how to get out of it.

You sound like someone who'll end up injuring somebody else, if natural selection doesn't take its course first.

thanks for your Vote of confidence in me

better hope I'm not the only person around when you stall half way up a hill mate - which it sounds like you do quite frequently

:)

[P4trol]

Gentlemen...

Take a step back... Dismount the moral high horse...

We're here to learn stuff, pass on hard earned knowledge. It looses it's effectiveness when buried in a slinging match.

I was enjoying this thread.

[Bigcol]

as there is so many different types of 4wd's now
same as so many different people driving them

what works for 1, may or may not work for another

I will apologize to Troutnut, as obviously he has only ever done a particular course run by some famous dude......

I did 2 with the Australian Army in 1970 (in New Guinea)& 1978 (Midland Base Workshops), in Land Rovers - so what was applicable then, is way way way out of date now
especially as we dont have Jungle in West Aust, nore do I drive a Land Rover

I have also learnt that you are NEVER to old to learn something new - with regards to 4wd's, driving situations etal

[Drewboyaus]

as there is so many different types of 4wd's now same as so many different people driving them what works for 1, may or may not work for another I will apologize to Troutnut, as obviously he has only ever done a particular course run by some famous dude...... I did 2 with the Australian Army in 1970 (in New Guinea)& 1978 (Midland Base Workshops), in Land Rovers - so what was applicable then, is way way way out of date now especially as we dont have Jungle in West Aust, nore do I drive a Land Rover I have also learnt that you are NEVER to old to learn something new - with regards to 4wd's, driving situations etal

Did that course involve learning to change Landrover axles? Recovery techniques using a Nissan Patrol? LOL

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[Bigcol]

nah, the old series IIa was / is far better than the later ones........

had to be recovered twice in Patrols - both times sand was like talcum powder
probably 1/2 doz times when I used to drive Cruisers, and always in freaking MUD..............

[Clunk]

So windows up or down?

[gaddy]

So windows up or down?

Just disconnect the battery for 30.15 min and the hill will disappear

[Drewboyaus]

And make sure you clean the MAF.....

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[mudnut]

I have learned one thing from this thread : a patrol accelerator is sponge-worthy. I will try using a sponge under the pedal next time I encounter some rough stuff.

[Avo]

So windows up or down?

arms and legs out each window and using your tongue as the spongue....gotta love the clunk factor

[taslucas]

So., will you dare use the hand throttle on bumpy terrain cuppa?

Lol Nah I don't really mind what ya do I'm just wanting this thread to fire up again for my evenings entertainment Haha.

You out there troutnut?

[the evil twin]

So., will you dare use the hand throttle on bumpy terrain cuppa?

Lol Nah I don't really mind what ya do I'm just wanting this thread to fire up again for my evenings entertainment Haha.

You out there troutnut?

Watch out you don't set Doggy off... I'd maybe wait till the weekend when he is down the Bridle Track

[jack]

Hi Cuppa, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, did you get what you were after from it?

[Clunk]

Hi Cuppa, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, did you get what you were after from it?
Now why would you want to go and do something like that

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[Cuppa]

Hi Cuppa, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, did you get what you were after from it?

Yep - “Experiment to find what suits”. :)

[taslucas]

Yep - “Experiment to find what suits”. :)

.....Bloody keyboard warrior!

[Punderhead]

Yep - “Experiment to find what suits”. :)

That is the most controversial thing I've ever head!!! Why would you be so unsafe? Terrible, terrible idea!!

[jack]

Yep - “Experiment to find what suits”. :)
Good on you, might just join you.

[Clunk]

Yep - “Experiment to find what suits”. :)

Yep, ive found experimenting with lots of different things a lot of fun, specially when i was younger.