Does 2T have a placebo effect?

[macca]

I spoke to the bloke who tuned my engine today, its been 2 months and gave him some feedback about how well their work has panned out. He was happy to hear that and will pass my compliment on to his team.

While I had him on the phone I asked about additives, in particular adding Castrol 2T at 200:1. I know a lot of you swear by this and from what I understand it is across all the diesel engines.

His reply was why would you want to do that? I couldn't really answer him with any authority except to say forums, this and others, say it is to improves economy, help lubricate the pump and quietens the engine.

Something about our fuel having less sulphur or something like that.

He said he see's all diesels in all conditions through their shop and heard all the stories, his advice was save your money because it makes absolutely no difference.

He did say 2 new pumps, one with additive the other without and run the same for 300000klm when stripped down would be interesting to see, but doubts there would be any noticeable difference.

I have been adding 2T for a few months now but will stop using it as it's damn expensive, especially when it does nothing in my experience. It adds about 5 cents per litre, I know I buy at the servo offering that price difference if the options there.

Interesting conversation I thought.

Be interested in your comments.

[Cuppa]

I’ll be interested to hear what you think when you stop using it. It definitely made my car nicer to drive & I haven’t been tempted to stop using it. With $80 worth of Castrol 2T bought on special sitting in the shed it’ll be a while before I might feel the need to reconsider. At least your chap didn’t suggest that it might do damage. :).

[4bye4]

This is a copy of what I posted on another thread.
I have been watching several threads about additives and trying a few myself. I have been adding Castrol T2 since the start of the year with the following results.

LTR Kms L/100Km

55.23 420.4 13.14
39.21 300.9 13.03
53.78 412.6 13.03
27.4 211.7 12.94
32.31 276.2 11.70
39.18 302.1 12.97
36.98 287.0 12.89
37.69 301.8 12.49
51.56 401.4 12.85
39.63 318.6 12.44


Looks like a very small improvement. Engine is quieter and also quieter since I have been providing my own oil instead of what the dealer used.

[macca]

Cuppa I only started using it again after a year or two not when you put that Repco special up last December, I really have seen no difference BUT I have had the tune up in early January.

I went to Vic for Xmas, bought some down there for the run home and honestly can not notice any change, used it every fill since. Be interesting to see if any change is noticeable as you suggest.

4by4 that looks like 1/2 a litre per hundred better?

[Stropp]

i see NO improvement in fuel consumption But it is a lot quieter when i use it, i usually buy any brand as long as its cheap, works with any 2 stoke mineral oil does not have to be castrol.

[macca]

i see NO improvement in fuel consumption But it is a lot quieter when i use it, i usually buy any brand as long as its cheap, works with any 2 stoke mineral oil does not have to be castrol.

Ah the smell of Castrol R it would be worth using it just for that :smiley_thumbs_up:

[4bye4]

Cuppa I only started using it again after a year or two not when you put that Repco special up last December, I really have seen no difference BUT I have had the tune up in early January.

I went to Vic for Xmas, bought some down there for the run home and honestly can not notice any change, used it every fill since. Be interesting to see if any change is noticeable as you suggest.

4by4 that looks like 1/2 a litre per hundred better?

Yea Macca but its not consistant. If you take the best and worst figures it looks good, but if you look at it as an average, I was getting around the 13.1 and am now getting 12.8, which is not a lot of difference. Thats why I am consinuing to check it as there have been different conditions, longer shorter tripa, air con on or off and even my temprement, as to how much boot I'm putting in. I have it set up on excel and just keep plugging the figures in.
your mechanic said there mabey a placebo effect and it could be that I can get a 1/2 liter per hundred if I want it to work and watch the foot.
In other word I still don't know but will keep watching it. The quietening of of the engine is real though and both the T2 and using Penrite mad a significant difference.

[mudski]

I've been on it since January. I don't think there was much in the consumption side, but like others have said it has made the engine quieter. But I think the acceleration might be a tad smoother too, but this might be the placebo affect taking place. I have nearly run out of 2ts, so I will try for awhile without to see.

[threedogs]

I believe it made my engine quieter and it feels smoother under foot.
as for fuel savings I doubt it too many ifs, A bit like chicken soup
not doing any harm and not doing any good either,
but Ill continue to use it every other tankfull

[P4trol]

It would be cool to do a test... Maybe a taxi that has 4 vehicles. 2 Di, and 2 CRD. One of each would be run with 2t, and the other without.

Taxis chosen because they can rack up heaps of kms per year.

[megatexture]

IMO the older the car the more noticeable the improvement. It certainly makes it quieter and smoother but I'm yet to see any fuel savings.
Do you all use jaso- fc spec oil in mineral?

[Cuppa]

Prior to putting the new exhaust on I think I was getting about 40 to 50kms more per both my tankfuls (180 litres) but cannot definitely claim this results from the 2t as I had also removed a bit of weight I’d been carting around. For me though, just the smoother quieter motor makes it worthwhile. With the new exhaust it feels smoother again, so who knows, but as I said I’ll keep using it whilst I have a supply.

[Cuppa]

but Ill continue to use it every other tankfull

So do you notice any difference between tankfuls? I know when I first put it in the difference was noticeable within the first couple of kilometres.

[Rock Trol]

IMO the older the car the more noticeable the improvement. It certainly makes it quieter and smoother but I'm yet to see any fuel savings.
Do you all use jaso- fc spec oil in mineral?

I agree. My old Pajero diesel really quietened down when I added a fuel additive (which is really just 2-stroke oil and some cleaner). When I add it to the CRD I really can't notice anything improving in the noise or smoothness department. There probably is some benefit in adding 2T to older engines which were designed to run on diesel with a higher sulphur content but on the post 2007 models probably not worth it.

[Warehouseno27]

I use it and feel it makes the donk quieter and smoother. Td42 with 180k.

[Dales300exc]

Ive been running it for the last few hundred litres of fuel. Didnt notice any real fuel economy difference or engine smoothness. But my on my did it quieten the 12mm pump. It was really loud and ratchety sounding. A lot quieter with 2t oil.

[macca]

Ive been running it for the last few hundred litres of fuel. Didnt notice any real fuel economy difference or engine smoothness. But my on my did it quieten the 12mm pump. It was really loud and ratchety sounding. A lot quieter with 2t oil.

I don't know what a 12mm pump is, are they normally noisy? Is it worn therefore makes more noise?
Does using an additive hide a problem, having something fail in the centre not knowing it was an issue is the reason for the question.
The other side of the coin is, a problem starts to appear then adding an additive could get you out of there.

[threedogs]

I don't know what a 12mm pump is, are they normally noisy? Is it worn therefore makes more noise?
Does using an additive hide a problem, having something fail in the centre not knowing it was an issue is the reason for the question.
The other side of the coin is, a problem starts to appear then adding an additive could get you out of there.

I think its just the nature of the creature, most diesel motors if not all rattle to a certain extent.
some like the 7.3 F250 motor are unbearable if you're parked next to one at the lights.
any lubricant to smooth out the operation has to be good IMO noises mean wear so less noise might equate to less wear.

@ Cuppa sorry for late reply yes you do notice the difference

[Dales300exc]

Larger pump to deliver more fuel and make more power.

Its only got 6000kms on it and noise was evident from first start.

[Patrol-Guy]

Well I've been reading about adding this 2T. And I think I have the general gist of what you're all talking about but just let me ask this so I'm clear about what to do so I dont bugger things up, so you are saying to add like 500mil of Castrol Activ 2T Motorcycle Oil http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Castrol-Activ-2T-Motorcycle-Oil-1-Litre.aspx?pid=1105#Recommendations straight to the fuel tank before filling up. And this may or may not improve the running of the motor?

[macca]

Yes mate you are correct.

From my understanding most use a ratio of 200:1 so basically 1/2 a litre to a 90 litre tank that patrols have.

I had put it in before filling so it mixes with the fresh fuel.

[megatexture]

Well I've been reading about adding this 2T. And I think I have the general gist of what you're all talking about but just let me ask this so I'm clear about what to do so I dont bugger things up, so you are saying to add like 500mil of Castrol Activ 2T Motorcycle Oil http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Castrol-Activ-2T-Motorcycle-Oil-1-Litre.aspx?pid=1105#Recommendations straight to the fuel tank before filling up. And this may or may not improve the running of the motor?


From what I've read here and elsewhere Any 2 stroke will work just make sure its mineral as it will mix with the fuel better than a semi or full synthetic and that it meets the specs of jaso-fc (low ash for catalytic converters )

[Patrol-Guy]

4ltrs on special for $31.90

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Castrol-Activ-2T-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Litre.aspx?pid=4447#Recommendations

[Wizard52]

Yes.

Went down to Brisvagas yesterday and back-- about 600klm round trip. Filled up at Gympie on way home and added just under 1 lt Castrol T2 between the 2 tanks as was almost empty. Took 159lts. It is 141.4klm from Puma servo to my place and I could NOT notice ANY difference in performance, smoothness or noise. Just started up again from cold to see if any difference but again could not notice and change. Going up to Broadwater Haven near Baffle Creek next weekend so will check fuel economy when I get back from that trip. Fuel economy of trip to Brisvagas and back to Gympie was 13.21lt/ 100k which was almost 1 lt/ 100k better than previous trip after new air filter fitted. Cheap economy these air filters.
In future, will only use Diesel Power or similar every so often to keep system clean and bug free---unless the 2 stroke improves fuel economy greatly.

[macca]

Had a yarn to an old hand who repairs diesel pumps / injectors on Monday.

This bloke has been working on fuel systems for so long almost everyone who lives around here that owns an old or new diesel knows his name if not being a customer of his.

Mine is not starting as quickly as it used to so dropped in to get his advice. It was better today, ( fitted another negative from the battery direct to the engine last night and it was faster starting today, also added DieselPower to the Vortex Monday)

First up he said add 1:1000 automatic transmission fluid (ATF), he said some long chemical name with lead in it.
My response was that was going back to old type fuel! He replied with a smile.
It lubricates and cleans the parts that the sulphur deleted pump fuel no longer does, plus has a small power boost.

He then said BP Ultimate was the best fuel at the moment, better than the Caltex Vortex I have been using.
Odd that he said that as our local BP had a big promotional banner out the front, saw it that morning and also a huge billboard extolling the virtues about cleaning a system in 2 tank fill's on the highway to his place.
Advertising budgets aside he said it was the better fuel.

Idling you engine is not a good thing, sure warm it up but not for a long time and throw your turbo timer out. He said glazing from excessive idling was not good for an engine.

And finally I asked about adding 2T, he is a basic down to earth bloke... he said save your money (to buy ATF). It does nothing, quite sure about that he was too.

Now that is probably a bit of a wind up for a few here, not my intention just passing on information given to me by an old school expert.

So after putting a couple of tanks using BP and ATF he said call back in and see where we are up to.

[Cuppa]

So after putting a couple of tanks using BP and ATF he said call back in and see where we are up to.

I will look forward to you reporting back Macca. In the time it’ll take me to use up the rest of the 2T I have you should have plenty of time to evaluate Ultimate & ATF. Will you try each separately?

[macca]

I will look forward to you reporting back Macca. In the time it’ll take me to use up the rest of the 2T I have you should have plenty of time to evaluate Ultimate & ATF. Will you try each separately?

I have used 2T in the past and didn't notice any difference at all in this car or the 3.0ltr TD Hilux I had before it.

Engine Noise, smoothness of running, fuel economy all seemed to be the same. Only thing I did notice was the increase in the cost of what went into the tank!

So gave the idea away, be interesting to see what this BP / ATF does. I will report back.

[GeeYou8]

The ATF sounds scary to me.
Which one?
Whale Oil?
Jojoba?
Synthetic?
It is not made to be burnt.
Graham

[megatexture]

I'd be hesitant to use it also. Wonder how long till it clogs up a cat

[Touses]

The 2t makes a helluva difference to the pig. Quieter,less smokey and easier cold starts. Keen to hear of trials with the others!

[threedogs]

I think its best to use T2 with a fresh tank of diesel just before a long trip.
Using all your fuel in one hit, I do this with "injector cleaner", Old timers
have been using different things over the years eg ;;like a cup of metho
in the petrol tank, ATF sounds fine imo

[GeeYou8]

Two stroke oil is ashless, so it does not form solid particulate matter when burnt.
As an example Dex2 is vegetable oil (jojoba) based which may or may not leave gum when burnt.
Graham

[VK2FMIA]

Two stroke oil is ashless, so it does not form solid particulate matter when burnt.


Have been following this discussion for a while & have done a bit of research. Found an interesting article from a fuel testing company about adding 2 stroke oil to diesel.

From the article

"The results of the study support a view that the practice of dosing diesel with 2-stroke oil is surprisingly ineffective in terms of lubricity and cetane improvements. Engine performance, fuel consumption and emissions were also unchanged; however the use of 2-stroke oil in diesel is potentially harmful to modern diesel injection equipment. Trace amounts of zinc, an element which is found in most 2-stroke oils, are well known to cause injector nozzle fouling and the study measured high levels of injector fouling when the test engine was running on diesel dosed with 2-stroke oil."

The full articale can be found here http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2-stroke-oil-in-diesel-technical-study.php

Wonder how many "Grenade" issues might have been caused by engines using 2 stroke running lean & burning holes in pistons due to injector fouling?

[4bye4]

Have been following this discussion for a while & have done a bit of research. Found an interesting article from a fuel testing company about adding 2 stroke oil to diesel.

From the article

"The results of the study support a view that the practice of dosing diesel with 2-stroke oil is surprisingly ineffective in terms of lubricity and cetane improvements. Engine performance, fuel consumption and emissions were also unchanged; however the use of 2-stroke oil in diesel is potentially harmful to modern diesel injection equipment. Trace amounts of zinc, an element which is found in most 2-stroke oils, are well known to cause injector nozzle fouling and the study measured high levels of injector fouling when the test engine was running on diesel dosed with 2-stroke oil."


The full articale can be found here http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2-stroke-oil-in-diesel-technical-study.php

That would probably depend on the oil used in the test. I have seen this or similar articals before. The thing is though of all the people using 2 stroke in the tank, we dont't hear many complaints of fouled injectors.




Wonder how many "Grenade" issues might have been caused by engines using 2 stroke running lean & burning holes in pistons due to injector fouling?
Not many I suspect - there are many reports of grenading from those who have never added anything at all to the fuel. I suspect there is no relationship there.

As to the original question, I added 2 stroke for a three month period over different driving conditions, highway, off road and city, and the only thing I noticed was I thought less fuel pump rattle. I recorded the fuel useage without 2stroke for three months, with for three months and am no longer bothering to add it as there was no difference in fuel usage or performance over the period. I think in my own case it was a placebo effect, I expected it to sound better so it did and I think that we sometimes drive a bit differently when we are testing products and maybe change the outcome, but the numbers on the record over three months (just kept an Excel sheet) showed no improvement in fuel usage whatever.

[threedogs]

I'll put some in today and see if it makes my engine quieter.
Its reasonably quiet as it is ,, time will tell eh. lol

[threedogs]

Ok tipped in half a bottle cause I only had half a tank, it took a few bends to shake it around .
But I have to say on my DI motor with 225k it made the Idle quieter. Very noticeable IMO.
No idea if Ill get better fuel figures but less noise at idle thats for sure.

[Cuppa]

Have been following this discussion for a while & have done a bit of research. Found an interesting article from a fuel testing company about adding 2 stroke oil to diesel.

From the article

"The results of the study support a view that the practice of dosing diesel with 2-stroke oil is surprisingly ineffective in terms of lubricity and cetane improvements. Engine performance, fuel consumption and emissions were also unchanged; however the use of 2-stroke oil in diesel is potentially harmful to modern diesel injection equipment. Trace amounts of zinc, an element which is found in most 2-stroke oils, are well known to cause injector nozzle fouling and the study measured high levels of injector fouling when the test engine was running on diesel dosed with 2-stroke oil."

The full articale can be found here http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2-stroke-oil-in-diesel-technical-study.php

Wonder how many "Grenade" issues might have been caused by engines using 2 stroke running lean & burning holes in pistons due to injector fouling?

I recall reading an article somewhere (wish I could remember where) responding to that South African research. To be honest I don't recall what it said, only that after reading it I was quite happy to continue using 2T in my TD42. Owners of later technology motors are probably wise to be more cautious. After using the 2T for over 10,000kms I put some injector cleaner through the system. The result was no difference which suggested either the injectors were in good clean condition or that injector cleaner doesn't work (another issue which seems to have believers & non believers & on which I have no position having only ever used it on that one occasion). As I have no performance deterioration & the car runs as well as it ever has my view was that the 2T was doing no harm. No idea whether it actually lives up to all the claims, but I am confident, in my case at least, it makes the running engine/fuel pump quieter & I believe a little smoother. (A little less truck-like, & a little more car-like). Having been on trip in Appollofish's later 3 litre ST wagon I would doubt if owners of those vehicles would notice similar results that I've observed in my DX ute. It may be that 3 litre models are quieter & smoother than TD42's but the far superior noise insulation in the ST wagon makes direct comparisons pretty much impossible. At times I've wanted to believe 2T has improved my mileage but now put that down to other factors & wishful thinking. One day I really must try a couple of tank fills without 2T but will wait until I've used the supply of 2T I bought, & at my average mileage that will take some time yet. :)

[Touses]

Cuppa whack up link to the Bailey diesel research. I don't possess the skills to do it. It's in your first post on the other 2t thread. May clarify the issue of common rail and di engines?

[Cuppa]

Cuppa whack up link to the Bailey diesel research. I don't possess the skills to do it. It's in your first post on the other 2t thread. May clarify the issue of common rail and di engines?


Your wish is my command.

It's only a short article. I'd probably call it 'informed opinion' rather than research.

http://www.baileysdiesel.com/on-highway/truth-adding-two-stroke-oil-diesel-modern-common-rail-engines/

[Hodge]

Been running 2T in my 4.2 for a while now on and off. I can tell you now, the motor runs so much quieter and smoother with the 2T mixed in. This is 100%, no placebo effect here...
However.
Cannot comment on economy or power as I have not noticed nor been on the lookout for any improvement in this case.
After a tank or 2, without 2T the 4.2 returns to it's original heavy diesel "ticka tacka ticka tacka" sound.

[Touses]

Your wish is my command.

It's only a short article. I'd probably call it 'informed opinion' rather than research.

http://www.baileysdiesel.com/on-highway/truth-adding-two-stroke-oil-diesel-modern-common-rail-engines/

Yeah, I do recall it going into more depth originally. Perhaps I saw the whole thing elsewhere? May be worth a google for those interested.

[Touses]

Been running 2T in my 4.2 for a while now on and off. I can tell you now, the motor runs so much quieter and smoother with the 2T mixed in. This is 100%, no placebo effect here...
However.
Cannot comment on economy or power as I have not noticed nor been on the lookout for any improvement in this case.
After a tank or 2, without 2T the 4.2 returns to it's original heavy diesel "ticka tacka ticka tacka" sound.

Same here! Ran a coupla tanks without and noise was nasty. Bunged in the 2T and turned Alice Cooper down to less than ear splitting volume to find the wife had whacked in ABBA.

Mama mia, welcome to my nightmare!

[threedogs]

Went for a spin this morning and definitely much quieter.
I wouldn't think that would equate to better fuel or better
performance.

[threedogs]

its quieter now and tbo I can hardly hear it