LPG safety switch wiring question

[dom14]

Hi Guys,
Just took some photos to clarify few things about the wiring of the LPG safety switch and the wires that come out it.

Can you have a look at the photos and give me some idea.

Green wire which goes into the 'wire harness'(which is basically the LPG pipe that goes into the solenoid near the converter, which comes from the tank.)
Green wire is powered by +5V red wire that comes out of the wiring from the battery power out sources.

1)What exactly is the purpose of this +5V that goes into the tank(Apparently, It's related to the gauge by the tests I've done so far)?!

2)How does the +5V generated out of +12V?! I'm guessing there's resistor somewhere. If so,where would it be most likely located?

3)Why +5V, not +12V?!


Here's the link to the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovqPawWCVNs&feature=youtu.be

[dom14]

I'm guessing you fellas are tad worried about replying to my LPG related questions??!!!

[mudnut]

Maybe, because LPG is dangerous. Or the gas gurus haven't seen your post. Might be time to let a specialist have a look at it .

[4bye4]

I'm not worried about answering Dom, Its just that I have no idea what the 5v is for.

[mudnut]

The gauge sender will send a variable voltage for the gauge to read.

[dom14]

You should see my auxiliary tank installation. It's legal(in VIC, there's no need to stamp for aux tank extensions) and pretty good job, 'cos I took the time. As long as I know what I'm doing and don't take silly, 'uncalculated' risks, I'll be ok

Auto electrical work can produce dangerous results if the backyard techie doesn't know what he's doing, and the same can go for fiddling with engine mechanics(I've seen pro mechanics with missing fingers). But, those areas are not heavily regulated. LPG regulations are there 'cos of the 'noisy' accidents caused by couple of 'fiddlers' somewhere. There're more politics in it than safety.

It looks like I'm going to have to find an installation manual from internet( I do have a one somewhere in the hard drive). I thought I could save some time by posting here. There're plenty of youtube videos on LPG stuff. Nobody's suing youtube or asking to delete them. It was an LPG installer/seller in Melbourne who told me how to install the safety switch few years ago. WA is obviously more strict in LPG matters.

LPG is slightly more dangerous 'cos of the pressurized nature of it. Take that away, it carries the same danger as petrol. Personally, I'm more careful with petrol than I'm with LPG.
That's due my personal baggage with seeing petrol related accidents.

Most of the disasters with LPG happened 'cos the idioxts fiddling with LPG equipment,without doing any homework on it. I wear gloves & safety glasses(all the time)
when I work with LPG stuff, 'cos you never know(old installations can have dodgy, worn out points, like in my case)

I take no chances with anything related to fixing cars by myself, let alone LPG.

I have a very good reason for that as well, 'cos I"m doing most of the stuff solo, rarely any of the mates have the passion to get their hands as dirty as I am.
(I put blocks of cut up logs, spare wheels, under the car, in addition to jack stands, and always choke up the wheels, :biggrin:).
I take zero chances. :biggrin:

[dom14]

I'm not worried about answering Dom, Its just that I have no idea what the 5v is for.

Hey Tony,
If you don't know, I don't think anybody would know.
I'm beginning to think this LPG installation in my car was done by a noob or done cheaply.

After all, it may be a good idea to see a specialist again.( I did consult a one during the aux tank installation time. He did mention the copper pipes are too old & the wiring is not being upto standards of these days)

Now, I have to find out what the +5V is about.

Thanks
Dom

[mudnut]

Fair enough. How much gas do you have in the tank? It might explain the 5 volt reading.

[dom14]

The gauge sender will send a variable voltage for the gauge to read.

Yep.
But, this is more like the other way around. The +5V comes out of the dashboard/Battery +Ve and goes towards the tank.
I have to lower the tank to find out it's exact destination(I'm onto it).

I thought it may be powering the sender, but now I'm doubtful since Tony's post.
I gota find the reason for that +5V now.

[dom14]

Fair enough. How much gas do you have in the tank? It might explain the 5 volt reading.

Hmm.....it's got about 60 litres now. Aux tank is shut for the time being(I'm planning to pull it out and examine it properly).

[dom14]

Yep.
But, this is more like the other way around. The +5V comes out of the dashboard/Battery +Ve and goes towards the tank.
I have to lower the tank to find out it's exact destination(I'm onto it).

I thought it may be powering the sender, but now I'm doubtful since Tony's post.
I gota find the reason for that +5V now.

Actually, I don't think I can say for sure the +5V comes out of the battery. I need to do few more tests and understand the wiring diagram of the LPG installtion.
I'm onto it.

[mudnut]

EDIT :I have removed the diagram I posted as it was wrong and I didn't want anyone to use it.

[dom14]

Hi Mud,
I'm not sure there's a indirect connection from the selector switch to the Sender in the tank via the dashboard gauge to power it.
I think it's via the PEEL switch.(an assumption, since I still dont' have a clue about the +5V origin and destination)

The yellow wire terminal in the diagram(PEEL switch, GAS Lock Off terminal) powers the LPG solenoid near the converter, LPG solenoid on the tank(s), and what not between
the converter & the tank.

I suspected +5V is to power the sender, but I'm bit lost now since Tony's post. +5V is from the battery or dashboard end of the wire, not from the tank end.
So, it can't be the signal, can it??!

There's a plethora of wires going towards the tanks(I need to open them and check the connectivity with the ohm meter to confirm above, as I'm not sure how the gauge sender and dashboard gauge wiring work.
It's pretty bad wiring by the bloke whoever did the LPG wiring. No doubt I need to upgrade them to be more safe and clear.

I got stuck with trying to figure out the occasional high idling with LPG(can't be fixed by the idle speed adjuster on the carby).
So, I still haven't lowered the tank completely to figure out the wiring.
This is the carby I bought from the wrecker, not the original one.
No doubt it's needed a good clean inside and a repair kit.
Seller said it's from an RB30 that was not on LPG, but when I looked at the top, it had the silicon sealant left over & also had the center bolt still attached that's usually used to bolt on
the Impco mixer. So, I think the wrecker wasn't telling the truth.

I'll get back to you soon with the LPG wiring details. Spare with me.

Thanks mate
Dom

[dom14]

BTW, there's no compliance plate on the LPG conversion.
I thought it's dodgy and contacted the Victorian alternative fuel board(sounds something like that).
The engineer(or similar) confirmed that since there's a good possibility the installation was done in early nineties(copper pipes and other older technology), there was no need for compliance plates, unless I wanna update the installation.
The regulations(compliance plates) are not retrospective and I have no need to update it unless I choose to do so(update the LPG gear for safety reasons).
Since, it's costing bit of money to get to do that from a licensed fitter(he would have to go through all the gear and update them), I couldn't see the
point of doing it, other than making sure the LPG gear is safe and checked by myself.
The specialist I consulted didn't think it's worth spending all that money(getting close to the cost of a new installation), just to get the compliance plates.

This is not the case in WA(law is retrospective there, I think) and I dunno about the other states.

[dom14]

One of the reasons I try to fix things by myself is to gather experience and knowledge about this vehicle as much as I can.
It becomes a life saver when it breaks down in the middle of nowhere(which has happened so far).

For example, my understanding of how the PEEL safety switch works and it's wiring has hit a new 'dimension' since I posted previous thread and this thread.
This is life saving knowledge.
I wouldn't have it if I take it to the LPG specialist all the time.
And, yes, sometime the specialist's assistance and directions are needed. No doubt.

[mudnut]

Have a read of this. If you can find a newer version it may have different info.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-14-lpg-fuelled-vehicles.pdf

[dom14]

Have a read of this. If you can find a newer version it may have different info.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-14-lpg-fuelled-vehicles.pdf

Yes. The above document describes the regulations as it applies to NSW.
It's slightly different in Victoria as it's not required for me to have the LPG system re-examined and have a compliance plate affixed.
But, it's definitely a requirement to have the LPG sticker affixed on the rego plates, which the car already had when I bought it.
I have no doubt the plumbing between the tank and the converter need to be inspected closely and be replaced as necessary, preferably by an LPG specialist.

I'm planning to do it very soon. I can see the benefit of having flexi pipes, rather than the existing copper pipes.

There are similar regulations regarding the handling of auto A/C installations and servicing.

I've re-gassed the A/C myself. I was able to do that 'cos mine has the hydrocarbon refrigerant(Hychilll minus 30, made in Melbourne).
I had to do it myself(even though I didn't want to) 'cos the A/C techie had a hissy fit when I took it to him to have it regassed last year.
He hated the Hychill stuff, claiming it's way too dangerous and damages the internal parts. He wanted to replace all the hoses and go for the R134a.
R134a will be banned in near future and I wonder what's he going to do about that.

Sure, Hychill minus 30 is flammable. So, is R134a when combined with A/C lube. R134a is on the way out 'cos it's been discovered it's bad stuff for the Ozone layer, ages ago.

So, I had to buy Hychill minus 30 from Burson(you can buy Hychill, even though it's not possible to buy R134a in Australia) and buy an adapter from Hychill in
Bayswater directly(to be able to use the little Hychill can with the R134a manifold gauge kit I have). I didn't want to do the A/C stuff myself. But, the treatment of the A/C
techie made me do it myself and the outcome was a good one. I gathered few auto A/C gear and some understanding of the A/C system in cars.

Hychill minus 30 is basically a mixture of propane, butane and possibly other hydrocarbons. I recon it's even possible to interchange it with propane, butane or propane/butane mixture.

The downside of it is that Hychill minus 30 can leak slightly easier than the traditional R134a. That because Hychill minus 30 runs on slightly higher pressure than R134a, and the A/C plumbing can leak it out slowly, unless the A/C plumbing is new or unless it's been updated with Hychill compliant plumbing.
Hychill won the years of lobbying to have it approved in Victoria(It's still illegal in NSW, Queensland, as far as I know).
Now, they are probably lobbying for the older R134a systems to have updated with the new Hychill compliant A/C gear.
I don't think they are gonna get that anytime soon.

Since Hychill refrigerants are flammable, it can be argued that it needs to be handled by professionals only. However, the fact remains, it's only a minute amount of liquid hydrocarbon,
comparing to the enormous amount of petrol and LPG the cars carry in and around the car via fuel plumbing. That's enough of a scare to ban anybody unqualified from touching the
car mechanical stuff. But, that won't happen, for good.

R134a was regulated, probably for a good reason. It was a high greenhouse effect refrigerant and novice handling of it may release heaps of it into the air which is not a desirable outcome for the environment(but probably not the real reason that it was highly regulated in Australia) However, no such regulations exist to stop the crap load of R134A and other high greenhouse gases released by the wrecking yards when they tear apart the cars(as well as licensed techies when they service the A/C equipment). A very funny situation, as far as the regulations concerned.

I suspect Hychill will be regulated, just like R134a, regardless of it's being environmentally friendly. That because the industry will start lobbying for it due to the effect of it's free use will affect the income of the industry(The hissy fit effect of the A/C techie. The real reason he was angry with Hychill minus 30 was that it was affecting his income.;), fair enough)

[dom14]

EDIT :I have removed the diagram I posted as it was wrong and I didn't want anyone to use it.

LOL. You were afraid an idioxt(like myself) might end up using it to fiddle with the LPG settings or were you?!:biggrin:

No need to woz. You did mention on the post and on the diagram itself it's not to be used. :)

I have an LPG installation manual somewhere.
I'll post the relevant pages once I find it. It's hiding somewhere in my hard drive.

[dom14]

LOL. You were afraid an idioxt(like myself) might end up using it to fiddle with the LPG settings or were you?!:biggrin:

No need to woz. You did mention on the post and on the diagram itself it's not to be used. :)

I have an LPG installation manual somewhere.
I'll post the relevant pages once I find it. It's hiding somewhere in my hard drive.

Or may be I shouldn't post anything like that.:p

[dom14]

First video demonstrates that a properly installed LPG system shouldn't go off like a petrol bomb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBDbm63XzDc


Second video demonstrates that it can with dodgy installations or the ones that may develop electrical/mechanical faults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ZKKyclrjA


There's no law that can prevent idiocy like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqRy0YpF2g

[dom14]

First video demonstrates that a properly installed LPG system shouldn't go off like a petrol bomb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBDbm63XzDc


Second video demonstrates that it can with dodgy installations or the ones that may develop electrical/mechanical faults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ZKKyclrjA


There's no law that can prevent idiocy like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqRy0YpF2g

Moral of the story?!

That I need to update my LPG system, professionally or otherwise.Bang Head
:biggrin:

[dom14]

This is an ok one.

http://www.o3inc.net/Techinical.pdf

But, they purposely avoided giving away the detailed wiring diagram.:1087:

[dom14]

This is a proprietary manual. It lacks the generic diagram that I'm after. But, nevertheless a good one to read.

http://www.autogas-lpg.co.uk/file/installation_manual_esgi2_R115_eng.pdf

[dom14]

EDIT :I have removed the diagram I posted as it was wrong and I didn't want anyone to use it.

Here is a diagram(the very last one in the list).

http://www.lgc.hk/Tech251.html

http://upload.alibaba.com/common/upload/136/930/144/880/hz-fileserver-upload1_hh1qn97o.jpg?size=99232&height=493&width=747&hash=b15a14b6ee26903c91a737e1bc31c1f0


It's a generic one. Your diagram is not too far from that.

Let me know if you want me to remove your diagram from my post(or the forum admin can do that if it's a concern)

Removed it.

[mudnut]

The reason I took it down was the coil negative is used for the input and it was probably wrong in other respects anyway. So I am happy for you to take it down thanks.

[dom14]

The reason I took it down was the coil negative is used for the input and it was probably wrong in other respects anyway. So I am happy for you to take it down thanks.

Yes, I saw it. I didn't expect it to be that accurate. Thought we were speculating anyway.

I'm beginning to understand it(at least how it's wired in my car). I'll post it once I work it out completely.

[threedogs]

can you fit squential injection to your motor, no power loss

[dom14]

can you fit squential injection to your motor, no power loss

What on earth is that mate? :smile:

[dom14]

Just received the PEEL safety switch. The seller put the price upto $40 right after my transaction. :D