right of access on "private" property

[deanfurley]

Hey guys,
Can anyone help me out here, I went for a bit of a drive this after noon, with a mate and hit a sign on the side of the track that says "private property keep out"

Co ordinates are 33°17.864'S, 151°18.096'E

How can I tell if there claim that is private land is legit, and two I thought there was a law where you had to allow access?

Anyone got any info on this? Or where I could find out if that is indeed private land?

[macca86]

Looks like private property lot number 5. https://maps.google.com.au/maps?oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=au&sll=-33.297922,151.300447&sspn=0.1101982,0.1757985&q=LOT+5+Ourimbah+Creek+Rd,+Palm+Grove+NSW+2258&hnear=0x6b0d331e4af95cc3:0x5f64d85a8a006690,LOT+5+ Ourimbah+Creek+Rd,+Palm+Grove+NSW+2258

Private property is as such keep out

[Maxhead]

This is a good tool: https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/

Looks like private property to me matehttp://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48655&stc=1

[AB]

This is a good tool: https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/

Looks like private property to me mate

That's a good little program.

I used to use nearmap at work until they jacked the price up to $5000 a year!!!

[Maxhead]

That's a good little program.

I used to use nearmap at work until they jacked the price up to $5000 a year!!!


Yeah, its great for lot boundries, survey marks, flood imagery, lables, etc. Just NSW unfortunately

[megatexture]

That's a good little program.

I used to use nearmap at work until they jacked the price up to $5000 a year!!!

Is it still a different price for personal use vs for a business?

[Family4x4]

I have a creek that runs through our property, sometimes when we catch illegal poaching gold miners they give the old line that we must allow access to the water. We don't have to at all.

The only time some one is allowed at the creek is if they have come from up or down the creek. People are allowed on the creek and its banks up to its high water line. There is no law that says you must give access.

I have no problem assaulting anyone if they refuse to leave our land and I wont let them back through the property. It often occurs when it is just the wife and kids home and I get a phone call saying someone is on our property from my scared wife.

One absolute dickhead was even in our backyard.

Rant over.

[AB]

Is it still a different price for personal use vs for a business?

I haven't checked it in a couple of years to be honest. I used to use the commercial license for scaling but they just made it unaffordable to use.

[megatexture]

Hey guys,
Can anyone help me out here, I went for a bit of a drive this after noon, with a mate and hit a sign on the side of the track that says "private property keep out"

Co ordinates are 33°17.864'S, 151°18.096'E

How can I tell if there claim that is private land is legit, and two I thought there was a law where you had to allow access?

Anyone got any info on this? Or where I could find out if that is indeed private land?

I've often wondered about the allowing access part.
we went on a drive that the map said was a road and it was to start however it eventually got over grown, for 6 hrs we followed the map with no road bush bashing as we went to finally get to a gate... On the other side it said no entry private property. Were guessing they didn't expect us coming from the other direction as there were no signs there.

[macca86]

I'd happily walk down to the creek carrying my firearms to "discuss" their options.
Hekarewe and I were hunting on a property we had verbal permission from the owner which is legal in qld.
Along came a off-road quad rider when we came out from our hiding spots he shat himself haha was funny he did not have permission and very quickly left

[Family4x4]

I'd happily walk down to the creek carrying my firearms to "discuss" their options.
Hekarewe and I were hunting on a property we had verbal permission from the owner which is legal in qld.
Along came a off-road quad rider when we came out from our hiding spots he shat himself haha was funny he did not have permission and very quickly left

After about the third time I genuinely thought about taking my shotgun down to the creek to "discuss" what they were doing. Then I thought what if I get put in a position where I have to use it? What do I do with their car? Will someone miss this person and come looking? I was also not sure my dead body hiding spot had room.

So I decided on a bat, which sometimes leaves me out gunned as most of the time these blokes have a pick and shovel. So I always use the element of suprise to give me the upper hand.

[P4trol]

So don't be fooled by the 'Private Property' but 'Public Road' scenario. Of course you respect the blokes property extra in that case. Normally people just stick up the 'Private Property' sign, which is technically correct. And the 'Public road" bit is left to those locals in the know.

[megatexture]

I'd happily walk down to the creek carrying my firearms to "discuss" their options.
Hekarewe and I were hunting on a property we had verbal permission from the owner which is legal in qld.
Along came a off-road quad rider when we came out from our hiding spots he shat himself haha was funny he did not have permission and very quickly left

I thought it had to be in writing ?

[Family4x4]

Verbal is fine in Vic, you only need written if you intend to use it as a supporting document/reason to obtain a firearms (longarm) licence.

[macca86]

Same in qld family4x4. My genuine reason is my ssaa membership so all properties just need verbal permission. It does help to have property name and owners name and number if you are near a boundary incase a neighbour or police think you're poaching or trespassing

[NP99]

One of my neighbours had hazardous waste signs on his fence line to keep people out. I guess if you break a thermometer that's technically correct. He also went a bit far blocking an access road. He was a very agro bloke to tourists and strangers.

[NP99]

The other concern for landowners is litergation if injury occurs during access or trespass.

[liftlid]

Farmers down here fence off remote seldom used tracks so they become part of their paddock.

[Bob]

My Father owned a Farm about 140 K's from Melbourne and it was amazing how many times people would just set up Camp on the property without asking permission. They would become quite aggressive when asked to leave. We found that when we had the Dogs with us we did not have many arguments.
Another part of our property had the Coliban River running through it and we always allowed the Trout Fishermen access to the River accross the property

[TimE]

Mate has a crown road (two wheel tracks) through his property, he must allow access via that road (track), however if you deviate from the road (track easment) you are trespassing. Another mate has bought back the "paper road" that allowed public access through his property, now it is all private property. no public access.

You need to be sure that a road/track is "crown" before you ignore a private property sign, and in NSW atleast, be sure that the crown road has not been bought back by the land owner, before you insist on your "rights". Read this (http://www.lpma.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/176366/Purchasing-Crown-Roads-Factsheet.pdf)re crown/paper road buy backs in NSW.

As a matter of course we always seek permission from the land holder before entering a property, just common courtesy really. As one land owner said "how would you like it if I set up camp in your backyard?"

[BillsGU]

We have a problem here in the North East where "Toorak Farmers" buy land and the first thing they do is go around with chains and padlocks and lock up all the gates. Even those that have gazetted public access. In one case I know a farmer who owns property that is land locked by one of these properties. He spoke to Mr Toorak with no result. He told me that he always has a gererator in the back of his ute and carries an angle grinder to solve the problem.

[TimE]

We have a problem here in the North East where "Toorak Farmers" buy land and the first thing they do is go around with chains and padlocks and lock up all the gates. Even those that have gazetted public access. In one case I know a farmer who owns property that is land locked by one of these properties. He spoke to Mr Toorak with no result. He told me that he always has a gererator in the back of his ute and carries an angle grinder to solve the problem.

Mate and his neighbours who use a "common" gate have their own locks on the gate, solves that problem.

[deanfurley]

My Father owned a Farm about 140 K's from Melbourne and it was amazing how many times people would just set up Camp on the property without asking permission. They would become quite aggressive when asked to leave. We found that when we had the Dogs with us we did not have many arguments.
Another part of our property had the Coliban River running through it and we always allowed the Trout Fishermen access to the River accross the property

Why would you ask them to leave? i kinda don't get it, i would just tell them to make sure to leave it as they found it.


I can see if you own land why you would not want people camping there, as most people dont go with 'leave nothing, take nothing' method. But i'm not talking about camping, i'm talking about accessing a track, to gain access to a state forest.

The comparison about camping in the back yard is wrong. cause i'm talking about using a track often no even insight of the home, i have cars drive within 10 meters of my house regularly, its not that big a deal really is it? a couple of 4x4s driving past on a Sunday afternoon, I would be open to ask permission but you find that if you hit a locked gate 4kms down a track and there is no info. so you can't ask.

Its a bit a shit mentality, i have more land than i can ever really use, but i want to make sure that no one else uses it (even to drive across) well cause its....mine.

[deanfurley]

This is a good tool: https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/

Looks like private property to me matehttp://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48655&stc=1

I don't doubt the private property, but there are roads indicated there.

the sign was about where the road splits just to the north east of the building, we were coming from the direction, looking at that map it looks like i would be allowed to access the "road" yeah?

[Bob]

Why would you ask them to leave? i kinda don't get it, i would just tell them to make sure to leave it as they found it.


Its a bit a shit mentality, i have more land than i can ever really use, but i want to make sure that no one else uses it (even to drive across) well cause its....mine.

Just because a Farmer owns 5,000 Ha does not mean he does not use it. He grazes Sheep , Cattle etc and maybe crops. I dont see why you think you have a right to cross Private Property or to Camp their without asking permission first

[Maxhead]

I don't doubt the private property, but there are roads indicated there. ?

Maybe we all misunderstood your question but I thought you asked twice if the coordinates you posted were in fact private property .

.....on the move

[deanfurley]

Just because a Farmer owns 5,000 Ha does not mean he does not use it. He grazes Sheep , Cattle etc and maybe crops. I dont see why you think you have a right to cross Private Property or to Camp their without asking permission first

Rob it appears you missed where i said camping is different.

I'm also not talking about farm land, some people just own a large amount of land with no animals on it. it at least very few, i.e a token amount.

Also Rob, how am i supposed to ask permission when i hit a locked gate? start a signal fire till someone comes? starting calling them on 80 UHF channels? sound the horn?

Its not about a right Rob, if you see where my OP was heading it has alot more to do with a bloke putting a private property sign on what now appears to be an unsealed road.

Between the greens and land owners locking gates they may or may not be allowed to do mate, we will all be 4x4ing in a back yards soon mate, now that may suit you but not all of us. my questions about crossing land were weather there was a rule put in place to allow this, in the same way you cannot build over a sewer line in a normal residential property.

you also did not answer my direct question about why you would ask them to move on? is it simply, it's mine and i don't want people on it? (ie. what is YOUR motivation?)

[deanfurley]

Maybe we all misunderstood your question but I thought you asked twice if the coordinates you posted were in fact private property .

.....on the move



Sorry mate, was more asking if i was allowed to drive by, which it looks like i should be able to yeah? as i would need to drive down that track to access plots further down.

great tool by the way. thanks for your help

[Drewboyaus]

you also did not answer my direct question about why you would ask them to move on? is it simply, it's mine and i don't want people on it? (ie. what is YOUR motivation?)

From my perspective (and our family property runs cattle outside Melbourne), like Bob, we have no issue with fishermen using the Yea river on one boundary but simply won't accept people we don't know and who have not asked being on our property, especially camping.
There are plenty of flogs out there who have no consideration for the property and with livestock all over the property there's no guarantee they'll leave gates as they found them. Not to mention the large amount of expensive machinery that is there.
Simply unless you do the courtesy of asking so someone can eyeball you you'd better turn around and find another way.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Bob]

also did not answer my direct question about why you would ask them to move on? is it simply, it's mine and i don't want people on it? (ie. what is YOUR motivation?)

The reasons for asking them to move on were :-

1. Disturbance to Livestock on the Property
2. Liability for personal damages . (even though Public Liability Insurance was held it is still a hassle in the event of a claim)
3. No Sanitary Provision
4. Danger of starting a Bush Fire as most of them were from the City and have no Bush Sense
5. Because they Camped without asking Permission

Mate I do not wish to get into a slanging match over this. Just stating my position

[macca86]

If I had private property surrounded by state forest I wouldn't want oeople using my track to get through. Why because oeople will rip my track up in the wet and it'll cost me a dozer to get my track useable. People will dump rubbish or burn out cars (you might nit but other people will) if I run livestock people will poach my animals or leave gates open. If it's my hunting property you may get struck by a stray bullet if you cross my path while hunting. Is it really worth pissing oeople off over the use of this road? Surly there are other roads to get into the forest.

As an example our farm in stanthorpe is at the end of a windy single track dirt road. We use to have a cattle grid and keep out private property signs. Do you think people turned around? No it's people like you who think they have a right to use these roads. After things started going missing bad we were over telling people to leave we build big gates.
You may think what you like but most people are carnts these days and farmers and people who want privacy are over it costing them money so you can go down a track.
How would you like me walking or driving through your yard checking out what you got then say oh sorry I saw the sign but I thought it would be ok as I want to just get over there or I felt like it.

[deanfurley]

Simply unless you do the courtesy of asking so someone can eyeball you you'd better turn around and find another way.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

And how would one go about that??? So you cruise up a track, map says the track passes through the property you have state forest on the other side, how do you ask? You had no idea the property was there until you saw a gate, or saw the sign. Which may or may not be legal.

Bob, mate I was asking not to be a dick but to see the other side of it. I more thinking of a disused price of property not a farm, ie. No animals to be seen no equipment. I understand why you would not want people anywhere near you livestock / farm. And again I'm talking access through the property not camping.

[Drewboyaus]

And how would one go about that??? So you cruise up a track, map says the track passes through the property you have state forest on the other side, how do you ask? You had no idea the property was there until you saw a gate, or saw the sign. Which may or may not be legal. Bob, mate I was asking not to be a dick but to see the other side of it. I more thinking of a disused price of property not a farm, ie. No animals to be seen no equipment. I understand why you would not want people anywhere near you livestock / farm. And again I'm talking access through the property not camping.

For a start, what sort if map are you using that doesn't have private property marked? All mine do.
Secondly, perhaps you ought to find the driveway, head up to the house and ask. Or you could turn around and find another way.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[P4trol]

Well there's so many (maps) out there. I have ozi Explorer (to display maps). The free maps are usually the old ones. Sometimes they are the best, showing old tracks. Some of the best tracks I did on the Cape were due to an old map. Of course I did my best and cross reference it with the internets, as some of the private property/ indigenous land had changed and vice versa.

I'm a big believer in respecting private property. Also a big fan of property being labelled. If I've done my best to ascertain a track is public, and it is not labelled otherwise, I might go down it. Signals to it being private track will stop me.

Best way to find out about the private property but public road is to make friends/meet the locals. Probably not by rocking up in a muddy 4wd, but perhaps a different car, to ask for a future weekend. You know the whole first impressions thing. If you come across as a threat to property/livestock, you will always be perceived as such.

[Chubba]

This is obviously a very fiery subject and I would like tell you what happened to me. I was planing a drive for a group of driving enthusiast I am involved with. Nothing outrageous just a casual drive in the country. Took my maps out and planed out a 2 or 3 hour circuit. Went out that way buy myself to check it out and came across a gate. It wasn't locked and had no signage but turned around anyway. Wrote a letter to the council the next day explaining my intentions and ask what roads were open for through traffic in their area. They replied with a list I gave them and said all those roads were open for public use and and there may be the odd gate but the gates would not be locked and I could pass freely. To me that sounded like pretty clear confirmation. A week or so later I went out to do the circuit again and found one of the roads locked. Not long before a fella turned up asking why I wanted to use the road. I explained what I was doing and he said he didn't like people using the road. I said I was under the belief the road was open and would he allow me to go through. He declined to open the gate. I wasn't going to argue with the bloke and said ok and left quietly. Our discussion was cordial and he waved to me as I left. Now I thought my efforts to find out where I could go was pretty good. I reckon he had illegally closed that road. Thoughts.

[the evil twin]

Not aimed at your post Chubba, just replying in general to the thread dig

First problem - the laws and regs can be different from state to state
Second problem - the source of data on maps may be proposed, current, realigned, service roads, closed, resumed, purchased or just plain wrong.
Third problem - the class of the "track" shown, it could be a public carriageway, a public right of way, an easement or other arrangement such as an access road to service tenements etc.
IE many tracks or roads exist over private property that are easements for access to landlocked properties further up.
The easement exist in law, are mapped etc but are for the use of the property owners/tenants/individuals having business on the property/s and not the public
Another example is rights of way that the owner is required to close at least once per year.
Very common across Gov't controlled lands such as military reserves

[GeeYou8]

My 2 cents, we own a property in a Central Wheat Belt town in WA, it was a government building and backs on to the council offices. When we first bought the property everyone in town used our driveway & back yard as access to the council offices. We have not tried to stop all access, but have put up bunting when our son it playing in the back yard. Most people in town now know that we are there on weekends, it is now private property, and don't cut through when the 'troll is parked in the driveway. But we still get a few that even have to give the engine a rev as they go past the kitchen window.
Graham

[paulyg]

I live on a property outside Ballarat, I don't want people I do not know on my property, and I do not see why I would Have to justify why to anyone.

[growler2058]

I live on a property outside Ballarat, I don't want people I do not know on my property, and I do not see why I would Have to justify why to anyone.

I spose if theres a road that should be open to the public and you gate and lock it, you probably have a large dope crop or meth lab? ;) Just sayn hahaha

[paulyg]

No road, have you been snooping around here growler?:sterb003: