TD42t power up help

[Robo]

Looking to install a WTA or FMC,
After some input on these different combination.
The task, to tow much better.
(and I guess a turbo upgrade sooner or later ).
Build spec--
reliability of engine to remain.
similar if not better fuel figures it's a daily drive 12/100.
Power % up, so it can respectably
hold it's own towing decent weight +2T at hwy speeds.

throwing this out there-
My Factory Td42t is 330 nm, is a again of 30%Nm = 429 Nm on the money.
or can we do better? how please?.
remember, not interested in rebuilding an engine, decent gain and retain reliability.

you have done what,why and the out come?
please a pwr cooler and gt2863rs isn't the story,
"full story please" all info, sizes etc.
don't worry about how much do I want to spend.
just write what ya know including what it cost then we all can chew it over.

cheers

[OldMav]

I Will have a go at this for you robo. Firstly You cannot get torque without Kw's but from my perspective it isn't very hard to get 150 rwkw and 600nm this seems to be the figure that makes the 3 ton patrol wagon feel fun and flexible to drive and has enough cruse speed torque and Kw's so you just don't feel a 2ton trailer in tow. Obviously this needs a tricked up 11mm pump or a 12mm element pump to achieve this with ease. At 150 rwkw this is medium power and probably has no real significant bearing on engine life on the TD42. So you have $3000 right there.

Now to make all this torque it is a whole lot better to drive and flexibility and fuel usage if you spend the time on the detail. For example airbox a ZD type just doesn't cut it for a ZD30 and hasn't a chance in Hades of satisfying a TD42 at 150rwkw. This isn't about air flow this is about air speeds and not restricting your induction system to your turbo for instant spool ability which means instant torque at cruse speeds or 4x4 wheeling hence better towing response when you need it..$600 Fatz unit or simular.

Obviously at least a 50mm lid lift on your intake manifold this adds response and help distribution for reliability and adds cruse torque response because it allows better cylinder filling. so about $500 well spent.

You need a cooler it doesn't matter which one as long as it is biggest you can fit. I am bias due to having tested many types, a well set up water to air is the best no question not crap no argument its not even comparable if you value air temp stability which means better torque curve better cruse speed response or faster 80 to 120 klms passing speeds or slow speed 4 wheeling, well just about every condition its just the best. Probably $3000 if you get it done to my spec. or about $2000 doing it yourself.

Exhaust manifold DTX low mount nothing else or if you want to save a few dollars on a std unit you can port the manifold ports to about 2 mm larger than the head exhaust ports. Or port them to the size of the Nissan supplied STD single manifold gaskets. This is worth 10rwkw and some 30NMm and about 50-100 rpm quicker, smoother higher torque rise and spool up depending on turbo.

Now for the best bang for buck of any Mod outside of the actual turbo. That is water/ methanol injection. This not only adds torque and flattens your torque curve but adds rwkw. Not only that it cleans your engine not Just carbon deposits but cylinder walls etc etc for a better seal hence less transfer of carbon to your oil, hence cleaner oil. If you are keen to do some oil flushing and oil samples you can easily extend your service intervals. I do 10K services now and have done for years I don't need to use a B50 by pass filter any more as it is not needed with todays oil and water injection. And yes I have done the testing and the R&D. Also if you set it up using around the 5 litres of water per 100klms you will see significant fuel savings using free water only did I say free fuel arrr yeah I did free fuel. Water adds KW because it add combustion gas volume as it absorbs heat so expands as a gas some 20 time more than diesel I might add, oh yeah it lowers your EGT's to make this extra free power, so your engine is always safe hence more reliable. The But here is you have to carry that extra free fuel so at least 30 litre tank is required 40litres is more ideal more the merrier. AANNDD if you are a little brave and really want some engine response that you will really feel, then pre turbo injection is a must. Pre turbo injection attacks the heat source which is our turbo so we get a more dense cooler air entering the turbo so we are assured our turbo is now working very close to it designed plotted chart map because out inducted air is closer to 25 deg C which is the test temp for all maps. Also it drops output air temps so takes a big load off your cooler so it works a lot better hence better response and a better flatter quicker rise torque curve. if that isn't enough to make this W/M injection stuff a must have then I don't know what is. You can buy the best system for about $1000 but you need to have a large tank make so mmmm allow $400 at least. Now this $1000 system is the only one to use if you are looking at pre turbo injection CoolingMist only.

Obviously you are having a at least 3inch exhaust system. $900. I use 3 inch alloy because I can its light and doesn't rust and sounds better than S/S. Or lol Titanium if you must just like all the top end sports cars.

To Note outside of W/M injection all these purposed ideas are all torque helpers or response builders those pesky 1%ers they add up and they are the bits you feel and improve your rigs driveability the fun stuff not the wank KW stuff. They allow a good pump tuner to tune for response and torque build not KW's.

Now the hard bit Turbo.. for me I am biased again here I had done the bush bearing turbo 24 years ago I did it with a KKK you know the design sold to Mitsubishi TD05 lol same same KKK. Anyway an 18G UFI is great and nearly off the shelf with mods of course. But for me I am for modern. So Ball bearing type and for this GTX3067 is my pick with the right tune and attention to detail but the 18g UFI for service and advice backup if you are not full on savvy with tuning. but you can have 200rwkw with a 18G and 12mm pump with the obvious extra torque to boot. $ 3000+ ish or the garret ATP US about $2500 with bits.

All said and done I have to advise DO YOU OWN RESEARCH so you know what the why's and how's are of why you are doing this with your own reasons. not just because some old fart on the interweb said so.

P.S forgot daily driver, you seem to think you are going to get power with out fuel usage, OK my rig has all this and more with 180rwkw and about 690Nm. I wont tell you what this thing does 80 to 120klms but there is only a few sports cars that will pass it and none are Australian, and I mean none. If my dad drives my rig which he has done many times he will see figures in the low 11 or late 10's litres per 100klms if I drive my best ever when I thought it worth checking was 12.3 litres /100klms but I am use to driving for fun not economy I just fill the tanks water and fuel and drive, when empty I fill again. But when I do check it is usually in the late 12's and even up into the 14's litres per 100 klms. My thoughts are its a diesel and a very old school to boot, why in the hell would you bother doing all these mods to gain pleasurable fun to drive flexibility and not use it? it seems pointless to me, but I might add though My dad had a 1988 Nissan TD ute to which I modified for towing on a highly modified 10mm pump but nothing like my rig but still he never saw high 10's in his rig even empty. He wanted my mods on his car for the economy value I said no farken waste.

[Robo]

Well thanks old fart, lol.
You've given me something, and then some to chew over alright.
Caboolture, hey, sounds like I need to move towns.

Ya gotta laugh, Son just broke down taking his better 1/2 to Sydney airport.
So Dad Hires a car trailer,belts down M1, chuck falcon wagon on, back up the M1 (was F3) drop em at their place, drop trailer & not long back home myself 4.30 am nice, lucky I work Nights.

Point is, return trip pushing 3tonne but fairly stream line behind Patrol.
Now pac hwy 60kph through syd Try and stop Pat, the taxis were slower.
The big hill once ya get on M1 4th gear 110k at bottom, the top and 80pkh.
Impressed with that I must say.
The caravan a different story no way aero like car on trailer.
Yeah you bet ya, van will need more grunt to move along remotely as well

I like the sounds of your first paragraph, easy 600NM
thats about 95% up on std and you say also soft on engine
you have confirmed most of my thoughts.
air box replaced, inlet manifold modify raised and matched.
port exh manifold, replace that later if needed.

Inj pump tricked a little I'm told and going by tonight exercise I think so to , how much I don't know.
Intercooler, to decide size and brand, but a must do I recon.
exhaust 3" no brainer.
Turbo, Agree that's the tricky bit, and 1 of the real reasons putting the feelers out to help narrow the choice down.

The other bits meth/water is something possible later maybe.
Like the sounds of it but Its the wife's daily also. and KIS, or it could be my ass, lol

All good , again thanks for the help.
I hope others got as much out of that as I.
cheers oldMav

[Stropp]

great info old mav, its so good to see people with great knowledge happy to pass it on.

[Robo]

great info old mav, its so good to see people with great knowledge happy to pass it on.

You bet ya.
Top bloke for taking the time to write quite a lengthy reply.
And it's not the first time oldMav has done this for us all.
Three cheers.

[Dales300exc]

Reading oldmavs stuff is always awesome. Cheers.

[Robo]

"OldMav"
P.S forgot daily driver, you seem to think you are going to get power with out fuel usage, OK my rig has all this and more with 180rwkw and about 690Nm. I wont tell you what this thing does 80 to 120klms but there is only a few sports cars that will pass it and none are Australian, and I mean none. If my dad drives my rig which he has done many times he will see figures in the low 11 or late 10's litres per 100klms if I drive my best ever when I thought it worth checking was 12.3 litres /100klms but I am use to driving for fun not economy I just fill the tanks water and fuel and drive, when empty I fill again. But when I do check it is usually in the late 12's and even up into the 14's litres per 100 klms. My thoughts are its a diesel and a very old school to boot, why in the hell would you bother doing all these mods to gain pleasurable fun to drive flexibility and not use it? it seems pointless to me, but I might add though My dad had a 1988 Nissan TD ute to which I modified for towing on a highly modified 10mm pump but nothing like my rig but still he never saw high 10's in his rig even empty. He wanted my mods on his car for the economy value I said no farken waste.

reply
Na I was just trying to make a point to encourage a reply to a reasonable gain and not insane.
If ya noticed wer'e getting 12 now so similar to yours I dont see a problem there, and infact exactly what I was looking for improved power and retain economy.
Trust me I'll use it,the wife possibly not.

again cheers OldMav

[OldMav]

"OldMav"
P.S forgot daily driver, you seem to think you are going to get power with out fuel usage, OK my rig has all this and more with 180rwkw and about 690Nm. I wont tell you what this thing does 80 to 120klms but there is only a few sports cars that will pass it and none are Australian, and I mean none. If my dad drives my rig which he has done many times he will see figures in the low 11 or late 10's litres per 100klms if I drive my best ever when I thought it worth checking was 12.3 litres /100klms but I am use to driving for fun not economy I just fill the tanks water and fuel and drive, when empty I fill again. But when I do check it is usually in the late 12's and even up into the 14's litres per 100 klms. My thoughts are its a diesel and a very old school to boot, why in the hell would you bother doing all these mods to gain pleasurable fun to drive flexibility and not use it? it seems pointless to me, but I might add though My dad had a 1988 Nissan TD ute to which I modified for towing on a highly modified 10mm pump but nothing like my rig but still he never saw high 10's in his rig even empty. He wanted my mods on his car for the economy value I said no farken waste.

reply
Na I was just trying to make a point to encourage a reply to a reasonable gain and not insane.
If ya noticed wer'e getting 12 now so similar to yours I dont see a problem there, and infact exactly what I was looking for improved power and retain economy.
Trust me I'll use it,the wife possibly not.

again cheers OldMav

It is possible to gain economy but its futile usually because you always end up using the better flexibility. The reason for a possible increase in economy is due to all the 1%ers these bits increase Volumetric efficiency hence your engine doesn't require as much fuel to do the same work or power/torque. There is a economy gain with water of course at cruse speeds but it needs to be set so water is injected at this point which requires a lot of water to be carried. Most setups are usually set for a change in cruse loads so fuel isn't used to increase load only water.

Thanks for the comments but really forums are for shared knowledge.

[Robo]

It is possible to gain economy but its futile usually because you always end up using the better flexibility. The reason for a possible increase in economy is due to all the 1%ers these bits increase Volumetric efficiency hence your engine doesn't require as much fuel to do the same work or power/torque. There is a economy gain with water of course at cruse speeds but it needs to be set so water is injected at this point which requires a lot of water to be carried. Most setups are usually set for a change in cruse loads so fuel isn't used to increase load only water.
Thanks for the comments but really forums are for shared knowledge.

I think it's a matter of learning how to drive efficiently using enough power to get there as you require respectively.
ya can bury your foot and send alot of fuel out the exhaust unburnt or,
apply enough "progressive" peddle to accelerate quickly and efficiently.
m2cw a properly burnt cycle of fuel mixture increase exhaust velocity and in turn spins a turbo faster and in turn returns more torque to the wheels and the pay off is better acceleration.

Or learning to back off the peddle when going up a hill,
burring the foot to the floor may not be doing any more than half peddle except sending alot of fuel out the tail pipe unburnt.

I take your points on board and were on the same page there. that's the sort of reason I asked for similar economy but improved power to help send the message build spec for reliability.
It's hard sometimes to write exactly 100% what your chasing so I tried to keep it short as pos but with enough info.

[OldMav]

Our Diesel or auto ignition engine is a little different from a petrol when it comes to economy and tuning. A diesel runs very lean or high AFR's compared to petrol which needs a rich or low AFR to achieve engine life or without melting everything. For a diesel low Air Fuel Ratio melts pistons and turbines where as a petrol cools, a diesel needs lean AFR's of high AFR's to run cool and lower EGT's whereby a petrol melts things with high AFR's. A diesel has the potential to produce better economy because its ability to have a larger range or wider range of operating with AFR's. For our old school diesel 16 to 50+ AFR where as a petrol 14 to 20 AFR is about it.

When we do all these 1%ers as I suggest they do increase power but mainly improve our effective torque range but mainly they increase our cylinder filling ability for the given turbo boost hence we have a higher AFR to maintain the same work or torque/power hence economy. All things being equal with our old school diesel it is very difficult to gauge economy with you foot, usually a cruse controller does a better job for a given speed, this allows the governor and load boost response to adjust your given speed more effectively for economy purposes. This is where water injection can come into its own for economy as when boost activates injection it doesn't need the fuel from the governor response hence a significant fuel saving. Water injection extends the AFR's into the 60+ area hence the fuel savings, if you can run small quantities of water all the time it is possible to achieve a reduction approaching 3 litres /100klms diesel usage on the heavy loaded patrol.

Around town stop start accelerations, all things being equal you will see improvements with these 1%ers as you get to your average speed quicker hence a fuel saving but usually only small as we usually drive a bit faster and use the extra power to do traffic manoeuvres to compensate. If you are like me you end up driving your rig like a buzz box because you can.

One of the biggest savings in economy values you can do is have your rig loose some weight. I have done the exercise but haven't done and checking on how much it has saved but I took my cab chassis from 2680kg same fuel and water to 2156 kgs to put this into perspective I have given back to my 180rwkw rig some 75rwkw. That's a nice power/torque gain but not very cost effective when all is aluminium items used to save that weight.

[Robo]

Ok enough time has passed and finances sorted.
Decided to go topmount ic non water for simplicity and less potential problems.
now which ic humm cross country pwr core, but feedback here is poor service and build questionable.
Hpd look ok but cast tanks.
opinions please, and other kits if ya know of any.
The company.A.R.E in QLD look ok, but near std size cooler so not convinced on that one,
especially as advice so far is go as large as ya can.
ahh also off topic but I'm doing the clutch also and seeing torque is going up eventually, say near double!.
?? nsk safari tuff up to the task?

[Robo]

placed order today hpd tmic 450x300x76 with ic cooling fan temp sender fitted for extra $20.

[Robo]

HPD tmic ,diy fitted and me happy.
most info on Robo's ride.
I'll be doing a full write up on it as soon as I get on top of things.
The boss is also impressed.
She see's,can feel the gains I've been at her about.
And now agrees turbo up size is the go also.

[Robo]

Doing some ringing around on price etc on turbo up sizing.
And this may fly in the face of all the good advise available here, but this needs to be posted.
To be fair to all who want more of there 4by etc, don't we all!.

I'm told by 2 very well know tuning shops anything larger than std ht18 And I WILL LOSE the low down torque that i currently have,
and only stand to gain any additional torque above approx 105kph!!
Told "I will be wasting my time and money".

I'm not planning on speeding etc and not that into 4x4 dirt that much as I think my past post here n there have clearly said.
So my question is why bother upsizing turbo only to lose the torque needed for towing.
Tuners are telling me they have removed many upsized turbos for unhappy customers stating torque lost etc.

Hold off,I know I said 200rwhp but info I could find never mentions losing low down grunt as a result.
& the additional torque is only up to hi in the rev range, to hi for any use for getting off the line with near 3 tonne van.

1 tuner said to me "what do ya think the competition tow vehicles use? "ht18".
I said, but hey they put their money into the comp rig and not the tow vehicle, answer, "no it simply doesn't work for towing thats why".
Ok I don't have time to fancy this up, I gotta get off to paid work.
So don't hold back, prove em wrong, post up dynos charts with ht18 well tuned, and afterwards with say gtx2863R, dyno figures please.
Just after the facts, nothing more, no offence ever intended or implied.

[Ben-e-boy]

Is this a larger turbo they have put on then removed or another company installed the turbo then this company replaced it.

What kind of turbo are they removing to re install the ht18

[nissannewby]

What "turbos" did the remove?

There are some good options on the market now which easily outdo the factory item both in response and overall potential.

Unfortunately there are companies that still fit incorrectly matched turbos to the td42. These mismatched turbos are certainly not as good as the standard one for response.

[Ben-e-boy]

Honestly there would be plenty of instances where their statements are true, and as stated above it is because of a turbo mismatch.
Also a turbo is going to perform how the injector pump tells it to perform mainly.


There is a dyno thread on the other forum and alot of the graphs for 42's of differing setups have their peak torque at 2000-2200 rpm, there is a heap of proof to their prove statements wrong with even a semi thought out setup
My setup has peak torque at the same rpm as some ht18 setups except a shit load more through out the rev range, and it is set up without towing in mind

Edit. Why dont you ask Winnie what a mismatched 2876 and 11mm pump is like to drive before he replaced it with a 2863

[Winnie]

Edit. Why dont you ask Winnie what a mismatched 2876 and 11mm pump is like to drive before he replaced it with a 2863

Yeah crazy. My car had a 2876 when I bought it, replaced with a 2863 and added a cross country cooler.
Had a 50% increase in power and torque, and full boost was about 500rpm earlier which is a crazy jump

[Robo]

[QUOTE=Ben-e-boy;624088]Is this a larger turbo they have put on then removed or another company installed the turbo then this company replaced it.
What kind of turbo are they removing to re install the ht18[/QUOTE

I quoted I was considering fitting GTX2863R,+ reco injectors+ all filters+ valve clearances+ inj pump check-tuning on dyno and possible boost adjustment to get the best out of it I can for now,Before christmas.
and was told x2 "no good" etc, to keep it short.
But I think we're missing the point slightly.

It would be near impossible for me to gather the info on the past said 4bys from these guys,time is money etc.
I simply would be taking up their valuable time.

lets just prove em wrong
If you have the info/knowledge and the dyno charts, post it up and we all can see.
That's why I posted the results of my mornings phone calls, to get to the bottom of this somehow.

OK so a gtx2863r goes well with a 11 mm pump.
will it work well with std pump +dyno of course, or is this the reason why they remove em mismatch.
what other tuning-settings are necessary for this setup to work properly.

And thanks I'll have a look for the charts If I can find em.
that's the sorta reason I was trying to gather the info grouped together, for all to scope.
and others know where this info is, and could simply bring their wealth of knowledge to the party.
pooling brains etc.
going to bed,nite

[jff45]

[/QUOTE
OK so a gtx2863r goes well with a 11 mm pump.
will it work well with std pump +dyno of course, or is this the reason why they remove em mismatch.
what other tuning-settings are necessary for this setup to work properly.
[/QUOTE]

If your engine is a TD42T, I think your standard pump already has the 11mm plunger..

[Robo]

[/QUOTE
OK so a gtx2863r goes well with a 11 mm pump.
will it work well with std pump +dyno of course, or is this the reason why they remove em mismatch.
what other tuning-settings are necessary for this setup to work properly.


If your engine is a TD42T, I think your standard pump already has the 11mm plunger..[/QUOTE]

It's also "limited edition plus".
no computer, no egr system as std.
wider shorter radiator also, if that helps any.

Yes it's td42t, but it wasn't intercooled ex-factory. "Is now".
Month & year model of engine 3/2002.
If this is the case we are getting somewhere now ,more brains coming to the party!.
I hadn't come accross that info before.
Any way I can tell by looking at the pump ?.

A case of all non turbo are 10mm GQ, excluding turbo safari imports ?.
and GU with ht18 are 11 mm std ex-factory?.

[nissannewby]

If it was factory turbo it will have an 11mm compensated pump.

Easy way to tell is the compensator.

[Robo]

If it was factory turbo it will have an 11mm compensated pump.

Easy way to tell is the compensator.

Engine number ends with a, T.
so it's definitely turbo ex factory.

Ok so it's a 11mm injector pump. great stuff.
I can confirm this how exactly,
looking at the compensator and I'll see what?
outside of a rebuild if something were broken,
does that mean no work necessary to pump, for a mild turbo gtx2863r as suggestered, other than tuning?.
And I'll still have same or better bottom end.
Can't afford to lose this, as getting heavy van off the line a real strain.
and really there's no point in doing the upgrade if torque was the same.

or it's my ass that'll get kicked by a angry red head.
Thanks fellers for the positive input.

[Ben-e-boy]

Engine number ends with a, T.
so it's definitely turbo ex factory.


I can confirm this how exactly,
looking at the compensator and I'll see what?



Lol. You'll see a boost compensator.

NA motor wont have one as there is no need to compensate for boost that isnt there

[Rocket55]

There is a dyno thread on the other forum and alot of the graphs for 42's of differing setups have their peak torque at 2000-2200 rpm, there is a heap of proof to their prove statements wrong with even a semi thought out setup
My setup has peak torque at the same rpm as some ht18 setups except a shit load more through out the rev range, and it is set up without towing in mind


I'm hoping this is true (no reason to believe it's not) as I'm looking for more bottom end, more mid range and more top end, generally just more, to make it nicer to drive and tow my van which is just under 3T.

[Robo]

Lol. You'll see a boost compensator.

NA motor wont have one as there is no need to compensate for boost that isnt there

OK so your telling me they never came with a 10mm pump with a turbo.Cool.
Only a 11mm if turbo fitted.
thinking there may of been something different about compensator size or rather .

Part Irish ya see, To be sure to be sure!.

[Robo]

GTX2863R ordered,+ new injectors.
+Dc3 11mm pump reco at tune time.
that orta get Pat humming along ok.

[nissannewby]

Good stuff. Which housing did you go for on the turbine side?

[Robo]

DTS Garrett kit GTX2863R.
http://www.dtsturbo.com.au/95356/Nissan-Patrol-GU-TD42t-GTX2863R-Turbo-Upgrade-Kit/pd.php
supposed to be same standed foot print for it

[Robo]

Got to thinking, not good idea ea time that happens $$$ fly out the door!.

Torque near 600nm Should I be replacing the engine mounts?.
With something like those control arm bush hybrid engine mounts jobbies !!61274

[Robo]

I'm hoping this is true (no reason to believe it's not) as I'm looking for more bottom end, more mid range and more top end, generally just more, to make it nicer to drive and tow my van which is just under 3T.

Stay tuned