CRD Slow starting then black smoke when power on

[Joelshero]

G'day,
Been trying to nut out this drama. Got home from work the other day and the missus tells me the car is getting hard to start. Told her she needed to let the glow plugs do their thing and thought nothing of it until she rang me and said it was blowing black smoke. Its not long after a service but not discounting bad fuel yet (will change fuel filter tomorrow). But over the phone sounded like it had a hole in the intake after the turbo but on inspection nothing found. the vacuum actuator on the turbo seems to be working fine. Have heard of exhaust blockages causing similar probs in other makes so disconnected the exhaust from muffler at the flex joint at the front of the car with no joy. I haven't got any manuals and am desperately chasing info.
Any suggestions would be helpful. I am a qualified heavy vehicle mechanic and after reading some of the stories on these forums of people forking out thousands for no result or short term results I am reluctant to take it to someone else even if they are a so called specialist. By the way she is a stock standard 2011 3L and no fault codes recorded.

[rottodiver]

Just scanned a page from workshop manual on the black smoke....
Scotty

[Joelshero]

Have you got the section on testing the EGR valve please. No wonder most blokes go strait to injectors and pump when they are the first things mentioned. They will be the last thing on my list.

[threedogs]

most here would have the EGR blocked off,
I'd be looking at dirty Injectors or MAF being Dirty

[rottodiver]

The chapter really doesn't say too much about how to test.... I would just try it with the plug on and then off( have heard of people disconnecting that vacuum hose and stopping the smoke. Here is the diagram of where to find it...

Scotty

[Joelshero]

Maf is clean as is intake, injectors only 50k old, I am not paying $2000 for a set of injectors for the same guy to tell me the pump is stuffed and its gunna cost me another $4000. would like to test the cheap and simple stuff first. As I stated in my original post there are no error codes. The stuff that I normally work on will throw a code if there is an air flow sensor fault. If it was an injector fault it would be running rough at idle and there would be a loss of power, besides in my experience it is very rare for all injectors to fail in an engine at the same time.

[Joelshero]

Thanks rottodiver I will have a look at that and give it a try and let you know. I should be able to work out how to isolate it and see if the problem hangs around. Is that the picture for the common rail or the direct injection model as it looks like an injection pump in the bottom right hand corner of the picture.

[rottodiver]

The picture must be di but the egr on crd is the same side but further to the front of the motor...

Scotty

[rottodiver]

Try this one..

Scotty

Thanks rottodiver I will have a look at that and give it a try and let you know. I should be able to work out how to isolate it and see if the problem hangs around. Is that the picture for the common rail or the direct injection model as it looks like an injection pump in the bottom right hand corner of the picture.

[Joelshero]

Thats more like it will have a crack at that in the morning. Thanks

[Joelshero]

OK replaced fuel filter with no joy, checked fuel pressure with OBD2 app and looks OK. Disconnected the harness from EGR with no change. Just to set my mind at ease I have done a cylinder cut out test with no change. (For those that want to know how just disconnect the harness from the injector on the cylinder you wish to cut out). The thing I don't like is when I am mucking around with these plugs the ECM should throw a fault but it hasn't been, I have heard that there is a relay that controls this but without a Nissan workshop manual its slow growing.

[Joelshero]

OK checked oil level and found it was a bit low so pulled out the intake hoses off the turbo, heaps of oil on the pressure side. So looks like I am up for a new turbo.

[growler2058]

OK checked oil level and found it was a bit low so pulled out the intake hoses off the turbo, heaps of oil on the pressure side. So looks like I am up for a new turbo.

Bloody hell! How many k's it done

[rodetrain]

hey joelshero, ive got the same drama with mine. already blocked egr off as thats what i thought it was. replaced turbo also. now my next step is to do injectors, pump and may even need to do fuel manifold??? still not sure what it is though. any updates would be good. ill also update you if i find anything.

[threedogs]

Shite and I thought the Di were a worry, seems the Cr have there own set of problems.
What with Geeyoutoo's oil pump coming loose, will follow this with interest now.
seems catch cans are a must as is the EGR block, who knows eh
Hope you're not off the road for very long anyhow
From memory you can swap the ECU relays with the air con one just to test it
I think it was under passenger dash, not 100% though

[ova50]

I hope you both manage to sort it out and post what the end result is.
I'm concerned after reading about the woes.

[rodetrain]

funny you say that three dogs. my ac fan stopped working about the same time...under passenger dash as in behind glove box or near foot well area???

[threedogs]

Yeah but not 100% lh kick panel

[rodetrain]

have some more info...
OK i just disconnected my injectors one by one. you can here a significant engine idle/noise change when doing this. but for # 2,3 and 4 injectors, when i revved the engine there was no change in smoke. but, when i disconnected #1 injector the smoke was minimal. does this mean i have a faulty/leaking injector. this would explain the hard starting.

[Joelshero]

Hey guys not good to hear that there is others with the same drama. Been moving house so haven't had a chance to have more of a look and haven't tried anything yet. When I was moving the car to the new house I noticed my A/C not working, still got the fan though. I am back to thinking that this is an electrical fault. Can someone that has a good car pull the harness from any of the sensors and tell me if it throws a fault. I am busy unpacking for the next few days so won't be much help. But for those with this issue my advice is not to change expensive fuel system components.

[Joelshero]

Rode train do you have any way of checking fuel rail pressure as a leaking injector won't cause hard starting worst case it will hydraulic the motor. I have noticed they need about 13000 kpa to start. I need to look into this part of the system more though.

[rodetrain]

yea i hooked my mates OBD2 up through his samsung tab and it was all good. the only thing that was weird is that my boost was fluctuating from 8-18psi when i was cruising at about 80kmhr. not exactly what the fuel pressure was though will have to have another look. also hooked another blokes snap-on reader up and only code that came up was EGR valve fault.(because its blocked off).

[Joelshero]

Yeah have the same drama boost drops out about 2500 rpm then kicks back in a bit later. My egr isn't blocked so I have no codes. Hopefully I will be able to spend a full day on it Tuesday or Wednesday.

[rodetrain]

good luck with it. i just pulled my injectors out. not that hard to do really. getting them bench tested monday. will let you know what they say.

[rodetrain]

hey Joelshero, just an update to let you know #1 injector waas leaking like a siv, fuel rail wasnt up getting up to correct pressure. new one from nissan is approx $900. recon/second hand one is approx $450. hope this helps you with yours.

[Joelshero]

no worries let me know if it continues to work for you.

[Joelshero]

Just over 50000km growler2058

[ova50]

hey Joelshero, just an update to let you know #1 injector waas leaking like a siv, fuel rail wasnt up getting up to correct pressure. new one from nissan is approx $900. recon/second hand one is approx $450. hope this helps you with yours.

Is the $900 for an injector ??

[Joelshero]

Hey guys had another look cylinder cut out test on mine and notice a bit of a change with #2 had it checked and wasn't holding pressure. A new one from the Nissan dealership in Rockhampton is $755. Going away for work this arvo so will have to wait till next week to buy and try.

[threedogs]

Is the $900 for an injector ??

they are cheaper than that aren't they

[ova50]

they are cheaper than that aren't they


Hope I never need some, ouch!!
:cheers:

[Joelshero]

Found a brand new one from United fuel injection in WA for $575 including freight and seals. The fellow there said he would even airbag it for me so I can have it on Tuesday

[happygu]

Joel,

I am pretty sure that the injectors need to be matched to the ECU ( not sure of the process though ), so it still might not run well, even with a new injector/s

Mic

[happygu]

Here is some info on coding of the injectors....

http://www.baileysdiesel.com/on-highway/common-rail/installation-guides-videos-help-bits/

Mic

[Joelshero]

Thanks for the info but after talking to the guys at United fuel injection about it there is no need for trim codes or ecm calibration when changing Bosch unit injectors. I noticed that the info in the link was for denso injectors used in Toyota. Even if they did need a trim code such as the ones Cat uses you can still install a new injector without the trim codes and the engine will run fine. They are set up that way so that in the case where you don't have the equipment to add the code to the ecm it can be done at a later date.

[happygu]

I havent replaced the injectors on a 3 litre Di so I dont have experience in it, but there have been some reports on the net from Patrols that havent wanted to run properly with new injectors fitted.

If United say it is good, I would also refer to their expertise, but you might want to take down the codes, or take a picture of the codes on the new injector as a fail safe just in case it still runs poorly and so it makes it easy for them to check......

Mic

[Joelshero]

The numbers you need are on top of the solenoid in easy view if it is a problem. But thanks for your concern.

[rodetrain]

Joelshero...i just put a new injector into #1 and it stopped smoking but ive now got no power...wondering if i got sold a faulty one. it wasn't from united but thats where i got mine tested the first time. (they wanted $480 for a second hand injector)
did you end up getting one off them??

[threedogs]

again ouch $480 second hand double ouch
Injector cleaner $13 a bottle

[Joelshero]

G'day Rodetrain
Yeah got a new one thru ebay for $575 delivered from United, from experience with Cat and other brands its not really worth mucking around with the re-manufactured injectors, haven't fitted it yet hoping to get to it after lunch. Not sure about your lack of power issue. Did you get the blower motor sorted on your aircon? And can you see how much boost you are getting. I will post the results from my injector's bench test once I get a chance to scan it and try to explain from the results why the symptoms of the engine were what they were. I think I am still up for a turbo as well though because of the oil seal being dodgy and I am gunna need a trip to the auto elecs to sort out why the A/C isn't working (which I still think may be related to some of the issues) so I will let you know how I go.

[Joelshero]

Tell you what not winning every time I try to do a bit it starts raining. Rodetrain was thinking about your low power issue and was wondering if you changed the coper washer at the bottom of the injector sleeve. If you haven't it may be loosing a small amount of compression through that seal.

[Joelshero]

This is the injector bench test results for my #2 injector. You can see the leakage rate is quite a lot measured in mm cubed per hour. This is fuel that is released back to tank by the injector solenoid. This causes the hard starting because the fuel rail cant be pressurized properly. It also creates an over fueling situation as the solenoid stays open longer. Managed to finish off fitting the new injector this arvo and starting is much better but haven't been able to test drive it yet. I need to visit Nissan tomorrow and get a return line T-piece as one of mine is leaking.

[Joelshero]

Righto finally finished off the job. A new return line (comes as an assembly) from Nissan costs $55, should have taken more care on dis-assembly. Been for a test drive and power seems good, starts ore 100% better, but still have a small amount of smoke that I am putting down to the turbo oil seal. The pooy is at the auto elecs getting the A/C sussed out so it will be interesting to see if that uncovers any other issues. All I have to do now is decide whether to risk a Chinese cheap nasty turbo or go with a proper Garret. Just to confirm what I have done; I have changed #2 Injector, I have not programmed trim codes or injector codes. As in heavy industry ie. mining, there is no need to replace all of your injectors just because one has failed. If you are going to have a crack at changing an injector just remember to use an assembly grease on all your o-rings and replace all your injector seals (copper washer and o-ring).

[rodetrain]

Joelshero. i have just sorted mine out, i did get a faulty injector. i replaced all orings and washers when i fitted new one. the big girls goin good now. but i have an oil leak from the rocker cover seal that i didnt replace:(. should of but tryin to save money. anyways all good

[Joelshero]

Good to hear its all good Rodetrain did you get another reman injector or a brand new one?