Starting issues 3.0l CRD

[Gregsway]

Hi Guys,

Just after some help - my 2009 ZD30 with 90,000kms is giving me some issues.

It started as just the occasional slow start then got slower, then wouldn't start when warm, I had to wait an hour for it to cool then would start but slow. I also think it is using alot of coolant, it goes from the max mark to min in a month or so, maybe 1500 - 2000kms.

I took it to my local mechanics and they diagnosed injectors as the issue and no issue with coolant.
Another mechanic suggests it may not be injectors.

Other than the starting issue once running the car runs 100% no issues.

I replaced the fuel filter and the problem immediately improved to starting with out any problem, but 2 days later and back to slow/no starts. After i changed the fuel filter i drove to stockton and when i arrived i tried to restart the car and the dash started flashing as though an electrical fault, i left it and tried in the morning and the battery appeared dead (we didn't use any part of the cars batteries during the night). When trying to start the odometer was flashing and she sounded weak, I also noticed I couldn't get the fuel line to prime, at first i could and then i couldn't after a couple of tries. I then got a mate to jump start her and she started no problem, drove home, wouldn't start then did and now won't start at all.

I have put the battery on a recondition charge overnight, but i charged it recently and have measured voltage as 12.4v.

Tomorrow i will test glow plugs and clean the MAF sensor.

My observations if they may make a difference:
1) the car has an aftermarket alarm - motomate, can't find anything on it on the web. But i feel like it is useless and sometime plays up in that the doors lock or unlock, hazard lights keep flashing, i can see it has been installed very poorly with wires just plugged into the fuse box and the unit hanging loos under the dash/at my feet- should i remove it - is that easy enough?

2) Around the ignition there is a black ring that is wrapped in copper wire, i noticed that ring is broken, but the copper is still connected and doesn't appear to touch anywhere

3) Recently noticed a short white puff of smoke when slow to start and then fine

4) The pipes that connect the engine and the inter-cooler have a small amount of black liquid coming from the join points, tiny amounts - is that an issue?


If i think of anything else i will post updates, but any suggestions would be a help, I don't want to spend the $4k quoted to replace injectors if it's something else.

[threedogs]

Disconnect the battery for a good half an hour
,remove and clean MAF sensor, spray available from SCA.
Get some injector cleaner I've found Wynnes works well.
Are all your fuel and vacuum line intact ,connected and not brittle.?
Yendor may be your man for this one

[Gregsway]

Thanks threedogs- I have just (last full tank before) used injector cleaner from SCA Nylox/Nylor brand? I couldn't find the Wynnes brand.
I am going to check all those lines tomorrow as well, i didn't realise the issue they can cause until reading on here in the last hour. But I haven't seen anything suspect, worth checking properly though.

[threedogs]

I'd probably remove the security system if its installed poorly,
It may be playing a part in your start issues.
Make sure all hoses are on and tight also.

[Col.T]

G'day Greg
don't reckon the slight leak around the intercooler hoses is a problem. Got it on mine (2008 with 160K) and all is well. Could be to do with the turbo being lubricated with engine oil, I think.
Would be a bit concerned with the disapperaing coolant. If your hoses are all OK and they should be, the caps are holding pressure and they should be, where's the fluid going? May pay you to do some engine bay cleaning and searching. Presume your oil doesn't have any emulsified water in it? No water in your fuel I hope, although that would be unlikely to cause the Christmas tree light dislpay on the dash.
Reckon you may have an electrical prob. but I'm sorry I can't be of much help there.
Try the suggestions above and see how it goes.
Good luck
Col

[Gregsway]

Thanks Guys - a mate is on his way over with the correct torx bit for me - mine don't have the hole in the middle, they are solid. But I have the MAF cleaner ready to go.

The guys pressure tested the coolant and found nothing but today I found a small amount running out from where the radiator connects to the engine, it also looks to me to be coming out of gasket, as there is damp around the seal, I checked today and the coolant has gone from max when I drove to stockton from sydney and back to the min mark when i returned - so 400kms.

Col.T - How would I check for water in the oil - I have checked my oil from the dip stick and all looks fine?
I am mechanically inclined but have limited knowledge of cars.

A question for anyone - the fact that it started so easily after it was jump started by another car has got me thinking if it's electrics (I recond my battery and no change won't start today) - would the grounding of the car that jumpstarted me have worked as grounding for my car? perhaps i have an issue with grounding somewhere?

Will let you know how i go - thansk guys!

[kevin07]

firstly I would load test the battery and clean your earth wires then ditch the alarm pain in the butt things they are and you seem to have located your water problem. I have found in the past alarms can wreak havoc on earthing points

[Yendor]

I would start by cleaning the battery terminals and making sure the main earth to the engine is clean and tight and is in good condition. Also get your battery tested.

When it's slow to start does the engine seem like it is cranking over fast enough? or does it crank over slowly?

The black ring and copper wire around the ignition switch is part of the Nissan anti theft system (NATS). When the vehicle doesn't start what is the red LED security light doing?

[Yendor]

Thanks Guys - a mate is on his way over with the correct torx bit for me - mine don't have the hole in the middle, they are solid. But I have the MAF cleaner ready to go.

The guys pressure tested the coolant and found nothing but today I found a small amount running out from where the radiator connects to the engine, it also looks to me to be coming out of gasket, as there is damp around the seal, I checked today and the coolant has gone from max when I drove to stockton from sydney and back to the min mark when i returned - so 400kms.

Col.T - How would I check for water in the oil - I have checked my oil from the dip stick and all looks fine?
I am mechanically inclined but have limited knowledge of cars.

A question for anyone - the fact that it started so easily after it was jump started by another car has got me thinking if it's electrics (I recond my battery and no change won't start today) - would the grounding of the car that jumpstarted me have worked as grounding for my car? perhaps i have an issue with grounding somewhere?

Will let you know how i go - thansk guys!

Possibly yes, if the negative lead of the jumper cables was connected directly to your engine.

If it was connected to your battery make sure your battery terminals are clean and tight.........get your battery load tested.

[Gregsway]

Hi Guys - cleaned MAF no difference, My earth appears to be solid and clean. I have another patrol on its way over to see what jumping will do.


Yendor - the red light stays on solid red when trying to start? Flashes when the key is out
- I jumped started it battery to battery!
- When it's slow to start does the engine seem like it is cranking over fast enough? or does it crank over slowly? - before i went to stockton it was cranking over 100% but since my return it does seem little weak but still cranking over.

I am going to test with my mates battery to eliminate the battery as a reason - once i get her running i can go and get it tested for load.

Will let you know once other patrol arrives and i test some more

[threedogs]

How old is the battery?, and how many CCA does it produce?

[Gregsway]

Trying to jumpstart but no luck
My mates NATS light turns off when you put the key in and turn it - so i think that may be my problem now... going to call nissan and see if i can get a new black ring thing

[Gregsway]

Threedogs - not sure how old the battery is it was in the car when i bought it 4 months ago - 670 CCA
I would assume the mechanics would have checked that it was OK when I took the car to them to investigate the start problem a month ago, but perhaps it has died in the meantime - I am swapping batteries with my mates but now i thin the NATS maybe the problem at the moment - i am not sure if the ring was always like that or damaged when i tried to have a look at it..?

[Yendor]

Yes the security light should turn off when cranking.

It sounds like you IMMU sensor/reader around the ignition switch is faulty.

Do you have a second key you can try? just incase it's a faulty chip in the key?

There is a chance it could be a fault with the your alarm causing this issue with the NATS, depending on how it is wired up........but I would doubt it.

Also I not 100% sure but I think the new IMMU sensor/reader needs to be programmed to your ECU and I think Nissan are the only ones who can do that.

[Col.T]

Greg,
looks as if you may have two issues.
If you've got head or gasket splits or leakage you'll lose coolant and it may show in the oil in worst case scenarios. I've not seen it myself but I believe it shows as a lighter than usual colour due to the water being fully mixed (emulsified) in the oil. The dip stick may not show it but an oil change with the oil at hot operating temp. should... What effect that has on starting I've no idea but probably not much if any.
Go with the other blokes on the electrical side but I'd still clean up the hoses and make sure you do not have a coolant problem because in general, thay suck.
Good luck
Col

[kevin07]

Threedogs - not sure how old the battery is it was in the car when i bought it 4 months ago - 670 CCA
I would assume the mechanics would have checked that it was OK when I took the car to them to investigate the start problem a month ago, but perhaps it has died in the meantime - I am swapping batteries with my mates but now i thin the NATS maybe the problem at the moment - i am not sure if the ring was always like that or damaged when i tried to have a look at it..?

you can better assume that the mechanics didn't check the batteries condition nothing like a car yard mechanic not doing his job

[Gregsway]

Thanks Guys - Car is with Nissan as I type, to fix the nats fault. When I get it back i will continue troubleshooting the start issues.

A mechanic friend of mine is suggesting glow plugs which has led to a dead cell in my battery - I will double check the plugs when i get it home, as well as remove the alarm system, and get my mates car back so I can try his batteries - His patrol starts quicker than mine ever has, you turn the key and 1 second later it's running......

[Gregsway]

Can anyone tell me if when I test the glugs - if i get any resistance does that mean the plug is ok? From what I understand any resistance means it OK.

[Yendor]

If you have a cold start problem that is caused by a faulty glow plug it will be open circuit........replace all of them.

What did Nissan do regarding the NATS?

[Gregsway]

Nissan have still got it, but quoted $450.75 to replace reader and reprogram both keys.

They said i should get it back tomorrow arvo!

[Gregsway]

I got the car back from Nissan - NATS sorted.

The car is still slow to start, but the battery seems fine, I am still going to get it load tested (now that i can drive).

Nissan checked the plugs and checked for codes but all was good.

They suggested fuel pressure being the issue, and i agree I am noticing that when the car sits the fuel is running back into the tank, so much so that it is not possible to prime manually.

But I wonder if this is a result of air that is in the system from when i changed the filter? Question - if you change the filter (and there was air in there) and the car runs fine, would any air get worked out the system or would it stay there?

If so how do i get rid of the air in the system? PLEASE help :)

[Col.T]

Jeeeez Greg,
you're really having fun, aren't you? I've had about 25 years out of a GQ TD4.2 and GU 3.0 CRD and never had fuel leak back out of the filter. That included when the filter was disconnected, which means the only air in the system was in the drained filter.
The GQ needed about 70 plus pumps to fill/remove air but the GU needs only a relative few. If your fuel system was intact your problem as described just couldn't happen I reckon. Therefore you must have a faulty join or a split pipe/tube in the line.
The GU has a pig of a design/placement for the filter (compared to the GQ) but I think your'e going to have to trace the line from the tank right through to the filter then each of the in/out lines on top of the filter to their end looking for the out of fuel and the in of air. I'd imagine that if there was a major fuel supply problem you'd simply starve at operating revs..
Hope I' not talking crap.
Good luck with the ongoing saga mate
Col.
p.s. if nothing else, you're keeping thousands entertained.

[Gregsway]

Thanks Col - it is comical.

I have wanted this car for 20 years - i have never been so in love with a car as the patrol. It was literally a dream come true to have a patrol parked in my drive way, but i have had problem after problem. i had a Nissan D22 the same age and milage - the car never missed a beat, i only opened the bonnet to put water in wipers. I search for my patrol for 6 months before i bought "the right one", no modifications, little offroad use, low millage. In 4 months the list goes as, front shock gone, steering damper gone, bluetooth needed a new mic, two arials broken or stolen, leaking rear check valve, broken exhaust mount, starting issue (ongoing), NATS broken (by me), tyres balanced twice, Spot lights stopped working (new thread to follow), rear lights had to be rewired, coolant leak, oil leak, body mount gone, problems with aftermarket alarm, had to re wire other doddy wiring x 2 (one active thread). - it think thats it:) - not sure i did get the "right one"... - i still think it's a beast, plus my wife likes it.

Back to the issue at hand....

Today and last night the car has started holding fuel pressure over long periods. So when I return to the car the primer is firm.

But she is still slow to start, it's starting everytime and taking the same amount of time to start each time - 4 to 6 seconds
When i start it i can feel when it is going to start, i still think pressure is the issue, it feels exactly like it's turning turning turning gets some fuel kicks a bit harder gets fuel pressure and then starts.

I will monitor it over this weekend and ensure my hoses are not the problem (as per your advice Col), then think it's time to go to nissan unless anyone has anything else to suggest i try?.... Can anyone recommend a mechanic on the northern beaches of Sydney?

[threedogs]

One place to look is on top of chassis near rear wheel , I believe its a very tight fit in this area, but fuel line is cheap
a friend just brought a 2008 with same symptoms ended up being fuel lines, after spending $$$$$ at a shop for no result.
What is history of you patrol is it ex mines or Telstra etc.
Have you been able to find and clean up a few earth points and battery terminals, sometimes battery posts need some twisting with
a scotch brite or similar plus inside of connector, leave nothing to chance, even if you run a new earth strap

[Col.T]

Greg,
keep plugging mate.
Reckon 3D's question re the history of the troll may have merit. You've had too many probs really for the usual wagon.
Anyway, if you get it sorted, you'll have a keeper.
Regards,Col

[happygu]

Patrol's can normally cop a fair bit of abuse compared to a normal sedan, and still come up trumps.

Get these little teething bits and pieces fixed up, and it should be all good.

Mic

[Gregsway]

Hey Guys - it's been privately owned since new as far as i am aware.

Checked everywhere as per your advice, done all earth checks.

I found a tiny crack on my primer bulb, no fuel comes out of it nor does air as far as i can tell (i put soap water and pumped to see if it bubbled but it didn't) but this might be the problem. - my only hesitation to think it is this, is that sometimes the fuel can run back in minutes, super quickly. From hard to soft in a minute, but other times over hours.
I am going to try replacing lines with clear tube so i can see what is going on.

Can anyone tell me how to get rid of any possible air in the lines that may be there from when i changed the filter - I want to be sure this isn't my problem.
I have done 500km's since the fuel filter change.

[Gregsway]

Nissan want $135 for a new primer bulb even the sales guy said go somewhere else - crazy!

[happygu]

Should be able to pick one up cheap enough from a wrecker near you.

Mic

[Gregsway]

just bought a near identical one for $13 from a boat shop - I will fit it and see how i go.

[Gregsway]

I have installed the new primer bulb and the fuel bleed back problem problem seems to be better but hasn't stopped. I changed the last fuel line leading to the engine with clear tube and no bubbles came through once the initial air had cleared (from changing the line)and leaving it standing for an hour or two no bubbles formed in that section. But the fuel still bled back on the other side of the filter.

My wife needed the car so I had to stop and put it back together.
So tomorrow i will replace the rest of the lines with clear tube and see what happens.

3 Questions if anyone can help?

Is there a return valve anywhere in the fuel line?
How long should it take for the car to start when working normally? At the moment it is taking around 4 seconds fairly consistently. That seems 2 seconds to slow to me.
Could it be the fuel pump relay? Not sure if its on the left or right in my car?

Thanks again!

[Gregsway]

Am I correct that fuel is sucked into the engine rather than it being pushed out by a pump from the tank? Just reading some threads and getting myself confused a bit and wanted to make sure.

[crazyenough]

I had the same starting issues after sometime being up at the snow.

My mechanic had a look at it, checked the glow plugs,they were fine, checked the battery (was only 4 weeks old) and it was fine, checked the primer and found that the hose clips which come as standard were crap and replaced all of them and now I have had no issues.

My 2 cents.

[Gregsway]

Thanks Crazyenough I bought new fuel lines today so will put them in tomorrow! I have allready replaced all the clamps.

[schanmala]

Sorry I havent read from the first post. Have you fitted a genuine fuel filter?

[Gregsway]

Hi Schanmala - yes I bought a genuine filter

[happygu]

Am I correct that fuel is sucked into the engine rather than it being pushed out by a pump from the tank? Just reading some threads and getting myself confused a bit and wanted to make sure.

Fuel isn't sucked into the engine as such with the CRD, it is injected in under high pressure.

Diesel is pumped around at up to 160 mPa, and excess fuel not used in the injectors is returned to the tank....

Mic

[Gregsway]

Thanks Guys - I thought I should update you on my progress.

I bought a new battery 760 CCA which has improved things, the problem is not as bad as it use to be, the car now starts in 3 seconds, which is slow but not too bad. Its been 7000kms since the problem started. If anything it has gotten better and now stayed the same for 2000km. I plan to put a new fuel filter in this weekend and see if it improves things.

I will then see if it's time to get a mechanic to look at it. i have tried pressurizing the fuel lines and found no leaks.

Will let you know when I solve the issue properly

[threedogs]

Make sure to wipe some fresh diesel on the "O" ring or any seals the Cr filter may have

[my third 256]

there is a small filter gauze on the fuel pump where the fuel line goes in
undo the connection and is in behind could be partially blocked