Bull Bars at risk

[gec]

Please click on the link and fill out the petition to stop the Government banning bullbars and winches

http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bull-Bars-Under-Threat

[YNOT]

Done.

Come on people, we need to get behind this.

Tony

[MQ MAD]

Oh here we go again
Bullbar bashing

Dont these desk jockies understand its not the bar that does the damage its the 3 tonne 4x4 behind it
If i didnt have a bullbar when i hit livestock head on at 100Ks , i wouldnt be here

[Maxhead]

!!!!done!!!!

[Bob]

******** Done *********

[Sir Roofy]

-------done------

[the evil twin]

... just for the fun of it...

[MudRunnerTD]

>>>>>>>>>done<<<<<<<<<

[Dark 1]

-------------done-----------

[macca]

Me too as well

[Dhuck]

---Done---

[Woof]

Done...................

[Col.T]

What is it with this Euro crap?
What is it with our dipstick pollies that they have to go down this Euro dipstick track?
Got me whacked.
Done

[Clunk]

*******All Done********

[DX grunt]

Done.

It's gunna cost the government a heap of money to take all the bull bars off all their vehicles and not be able to re-sell them.

I was thinking it's all pie in the sky stuff, but you never know!!

[the evil twin]

Done.

It's gunna cost the government a heap of money to take all the bull bars off all their vehicles and not be able to re-sell them.

I was thinking it's all pie in the sky stuff, but you never know!!

ROFL... good point Roscoe.

aaaaaand, I beat ya to posting as well, where were ya, Macca's break? They have wireless internet there now you know... hehehehe

[AB]

-------->Done<--------

Good find, thanks GEC!

[DX grunt]

ROFL... good point Roscoe.

aaaaaand, I beat ya to posting as well, where were ya, Macca's break? They have wireless internet there now you know... hehehehe

Some people are out there walking the talk. lol

I gave it to em in the comments bit. Mentioned about OSH and guvvie workers working by themselves in a remote area. Forgot to mention duty of care, so if anybody hasn't done the survey, mention OSH and Duty of Care, for their own (guvvie) staff.

I hope this subject will die of a natural death. Employers have to provide their employees with a safe work place... If they can't, it's a blank cheque waiting to be written.

Rant over. lol

Back to networking with the brewery. lol

[peter&kells4.2]

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''done''''''''''''''''''' '''

[molongmick]

>>>:049:All Done:049:<<<<

[Finly Owner]

My extra part in comments:

Bull bars have been used for vehicles for many years. They have benn proven to prevent damage to vehicles even when only used in regional off roading, not just animal strikes but unseen small trees in long grass when off road through permitted forest use. To place extra lighting which is needed for safety while off roading at night, they must be placed within the vehicles dimensions. A bullbar give extra legal dimension to safely mount such lighting.

I believe pedestian safety needs to be placed back onto every person who steps onto a road surface. What ever happened to "Stop, Look, Listen and Look Again". Far too often, people step onto a road without looking and expect a vehicle to just stop and not hit them.

My bullbar is not fitted for extra safety in a collision with another vehicle, as I drive within the speed limit, and leave stopping room between myself and the vehicle in front. I drive within safe braking distances always.

My eyes are constantly scanning the sidewalks and parked cars for unexpected persons to avoid.

Bullbars and 4WD's are being made scape goats for peoples bad judgements and choices.

These vehicles, accessories, forest permits, Fuels, Camp site fees, tyres, all bring the Australian Tax office healthy dividends of TAX and GST. Ban these, and see a huge decline in TAX REVENUE.

There is more damage being done to pedestrians hit by a car with an inter-cooler radiator sitting out the front of it's grill than bullbars. Just go to the emergency room and observe the slivers of bone being removed from the wound. Not to mention the bits of aluminiun and plastic having to be surgically removed from abdomen.

[YNOT]

Well said Tim.

Tony

[NissanGQ4.2]

Well said Tim.

Tony

x 2 very well said Tim

[Sir Roofy]

HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD TIM well said

roofy

[Bob]

Out of 1400 odd members this is a pretty small response. Come on guys/gals more response please

[rkinsey]

********Done!********

[Dhuck]

Well said Tim. Wish we had more ppl in this world with enough common sense to think like this. What you have stated is exactly what I was teaching my step daughter when she was learning to drive.

[Macgyver]

bullbars > stupid pedestrians.

[Finly Owner]

bullbars > stupid pedestrians.

And that's why they are trying to ban them, although we say it in gest, the suits think we mean it!

[BillsGU]

Likewise .......................

[Bigrig]

Just did the survey ... x 2 for me and the missus ... glad to see that this sort of dribble even gets humoured at a Senate level (they obviously have no other pressing issues) .. they are all obviously hankering for a free flight and trip to Europe to assess if their conditions are the same as ours!!!! Been there ... it's NOT!!!!!

[Archie]

All Done. I hope they take notice.

[my third 256]

-------------done also --------------

[TheFlyingBadger]

i've done it. I'm not sure it'll ever gain any traction (or if it's even a *real* proposal from anyone other than a loony pedestrian group), but at least i've registered a protest

[NUGGET]

Just finished X 4, 1 for me, the wife and got the email addresses off the bro and sister in law.

[Patrica]

...............Done.............
I must say this is such a joke

[DX grunt]

Anything's possible in today's society. You never know, a lot of people may be shaving using their own bullbar - one day !!!!!

[the evil twin]

...............Done.............
I must say this is such a joke

I tend to agree... and... this poo fight originated in discussion papers on Barwork Design for Vehicles under 2500 KG GVM in interests of pedestrian safety so the majority of the 4WD fraternity have waded in "prematurely" as there is yet to be any mention of outlawing all Barwork and that is not the intent of the potential ADR implications.

However, making as much noise as possible, as early as possible can't hurt even if it only lets 'em know we are there, we are vocal and we are watching...

[gxr]

I hope you win this fight, we (Egypt) lost it last year! All bar work is now illegal, the penalty for getting caught with a bull bar on your car is simply losing your license and you only get it back after a trip to the DMV and a heavy fine. So we all had to take the bar work off and that really upset a lot of people .

I have two ARB bull bars in perfect nick hanging in my garage, mine and the wife's X-trail one !!! Kills me every morning when I see them !

[Simon]

They ban everything and for what benefit? Are bullbars really a problem?

[Bigrig]

I'm less concerned about losing the alloy bar, and more concerned with losing all the lights and UHF mounting point (which are both for safety and communication), and my fishing rod holders. A bull bar = lifestyle for many people ... and saftey in the bush, their jobs, on holidays, etc, etc, etc ... I challenge anyone of our politicans to travel MANY sections of our so called "national highways" at night with spotties and see how safe they feel ...

[MS29431]

This is another example of rubbish from the government and goes to show just how out of touch they are..... I have three vehicles with bullbars 2x steel ('97 Toyota Hilux and an '80 WB Holden utility) and 1x alloy('86 Nissan Patrol) and i would not travel to the places i go without one fitted as i have collided with many animals and vehicle's on our roads and without the bullbars being fitted i think i may not be here today don't let the government ban bullbars....Please the've taken enough off us over the years already i had'nt heard this yet, ( I think Simon Christie on FWD TV mentioned somthing breifly about it) keep the post up as i've only just found it..MS

[AB]

Theres another post running on this forum about it too.

I mentioned in that post that I also heard it on the radio about discussions in Canberra which freaked me out too.

[Finly Owner]

This is another example of rubbish from the government and goes to show just how out of touch they are..... I have three vehicles with bullbars 2x steel ('97 Toyota Hilux and an '80 WB Holden utility) and 1x alloy('86 Nissan Patrol) and i would not travel to the places i go without one fitted as i have collided with many animals and vehicle's on our roads and without the bullbars being fitted i think i may not be here today don't let the government ban bullbars....Please the've taken enough off us over the years already i had'nt heard this yet, ( I think Simon Christie on FWD TV mentioned somthing breifly about it) keep the post up as i've only just found it..MS


Unfortunately, I understand you crediting your life to bullbars, but what did the other vehicle look like, and they are asking would have that damage been less if you had no bullbar? This is what we need to defend, the supposed extra carnage of non-barred vehicles, and severity of injuries of pedestrians hit by vehiles with/without bars. We need find hard evidence counteracting their claims. Prove what they are saying is so minimal, it does not warrant the national ban. And if one state only brings it in, then you will not be able to drive throught that state with one on even if you're rego is another state.

[MS29431]

The cars i have have hit have all been drivable only one of only 5 was drivable.... just.... writen off cause of cost to fix (early 90's commodore) there has only been injury's sustained in the accidents in my old falcon's that had plastic bumper's on 'em.
And also i'm pretty sure if your caught in W.A. with a 5 post bullbar on a vehicle under a certain Gross Vehicle Mass you will have a canary (defect notice) put on your vehicle.....We will have to watch and see

[gbatt64]

been and done

[Nanango]

*************All done************

[DX grunt]

Firstly, my condolences to everyone who has lost a loved one, or been injured in a road crash involving bullbars. My thoughts are also with the drivers.
If any of you need trauma counseling, seek it, please. Critical incident stress needs dealing with sooner rather than later.

Personally, I am in favour of having bull bars on vehicles. I have one on my own vehicle, which is an ex-government fleet
Telstra vehicle. I love my truck and everything on it because it has, and will serve the purpose for which I bought it.

All research undertaken whether favourable or unfavourable to both sides of the topic, needs to be disclosed.
If this research lacks depth, it will provide biased evidence to the decision makers (politicians), and will not be a true reflection
of the information required to make an informed decision.

Each crash involving a pedestrian and a vehicle fitted with a bull bar, needs to be assessed and evaluated individually.
Some of the considerations should be:
What was the speed zone for the area? 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110
What was the attitude and behavior of the driver and pedestrian?
Was the driver and or pedestrian affected by alcohol and or drugs?
What colour clothing did the pedestrian have on?
Was the area safe for the pedestrian to cross?
What was the traffic volume and density like?
What was the health of the pedestrian and driver at the time – ie, any vision impairment, hazard and depth perception,
diminished reaction times for whatever reason, ect?
Did the driver have a current driver’s licence? Should they have been on the road?
Was the vehicle registered? Should it have been on the road?
Did the pedestrian cross at an appropriate place?
Did the pedestrian cross against ‘the red man’
What were the movements of the pedestrian at the time – running, walking, tripped, ect?

The other concern I have is OSH – Occupational Safety and Health.
Employers are, required by law, to provide their employees with a safe workplace.
There are many employees who work in rural and remote areas, alone. I have an ex Telstra vehicle, which in my opinion
was set up to be operated by one person. It has everything, for which I am greatful.
I can – but choose not to go alone - to remote areas with no mobile/satellite phone coverage, believing I can deal with
nearly all situations. I believe some employees don’t have that choice - that’s why employers provide them with as much
safety/recovery gear as possible, because of the nature of their employment.

In my opinion, for an employer not to be able to provide their employees with the safest workplace possible because of a
legislated decision – is a blank cheque waiting to be written – and the winners will be the lawyers.

On the commercial side of things, the decision makers need to assess their own vehicle fleets and their sub-contractors,
and those departments that have been privatized, before they make their decision.
Their can’t be 2 rules - one for them and one for us. The decision has to be fair and equitable to all.

Will the ruling apply from………(this) date?
Will current vehicles that are fitted with bullbars be affected?
Will there be a ‘bull bar buyback’?
What will happen to the ‘stock pile’ of surrendered bullbars?
How will the government provide a safe workplace for their ‘isolated’ employees and sub-contractors?
How many businesses will have to sack staff or be forced to close their doors because of legislation?
How will this decision affect the mining and tourism industries?

The questions keep going on and on.

Should this ‘ban the bull bar’ discussion become law, I believe people will make their view point loud and clear at the ballot box.

My understanding is that any crash, 60kmh or above, is classed as a ‘high speed’ crash, whether it be vehicle versus vehicle or vehicle versus pedestrian.
I also believe the survival rate for a pedestrian involved in a crash over 40kmh decreases rapidly.

I have done my best to provide a balanced view on this subject. This is a very emotional and passionate issue – for both sides.
I believe we all need to take the emotions out, and deal with facts to attain a fair and unbiased view - provided we are given all the facts.

Take care out there.

Ross
DX grunt

[Finly Owner]

Firstly, my condolences to everyone who has lost a loved one, or been injured in a road crash involving bullbars. My thoughts are also with the drivers.
If any of you need trauma counseling, seek it, please. Critical incident stress needs dealing with sooner rather than later.

Personally, I am in favour of having bull bars on vehicles. I have one on my own vehicle, which is an ex-government fleet
Telstra vehicle. I love my truck and everything on it because it has, and will serve the purpose for which I bought it.

All research undertaken whether favourable or unfavourable to both sides of the topic, needs to be disclosed.
If this research lacks depth, it will provide biased evidence to the decision makers (politicians), and will not be a true reflection
of the information required to make an informed decision.

Each crash involving a pedestrian and a vehicle fitted with a bull bar, needs to be assessed and evaluated individually.
Some of the considerations should be:
What was the speed zone for the area? 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110
What was the attitude and behavior of the driver and pedestrian?
Was the driver and or pedestrian affected by alcohol and or drugs?
What colour clothing did the pedestrian have on?
Was the area safe for the pedestrian to cross?
What was the traffic volume and density like?
What was the health of the pedestrian and driver at the time – ie, any vision impairment, hazard and depth perception,
diminished reaction times for whatever reason, ect?
Did the driver have a current driver’s licence? Should they have been on the road?
Was the vehicle registered? Should it have been on the road?
Did the pedestrian cross at an appropriate place?
Did the pedestrian cross against ‘the red man’
What were the movements of the pedestrian at the time – running, walking, tripped, ect?

The other concern I have is OSH – Occupational Safety and Health.
Employers are, required by law, to provide their employees with a safe workplace.
There are many employees who work in rural and remote areas, alone. I have an ex Telstra vehicle, which in my opinion
was set up to be operated by one person. It has everything, for which I am greatful.
I can – but choose not to go alone - to remote areas with no mobile/satellite phone coverage, believing I can deal with
nearly all situations. I believe some employees don’t have that choice - that’s why employers provide them with as much
safety/recovery gear as possible, because of the nature of their employment.

In my opinion, for an employer not to be able to provide their employees with the safest workplace possible because of a
legislated decision – is a blank cheque waiting to be written – and the winners will be the lawyers.

On the commercial side of things, the decision makers need to assess their own vehicle fleets and their sub-contractors,
and those departments that have been privatized, before they make their decision.
Their can’t be 2 rules - one for them and one for us. The decision has to be fair and equitable to all.

Will the ruling apply from………(this) date?
Will current vehicles that are fitted with bullbars be affected?
Will there be a ‘bull bar buyback’?
What will happen to the ‘stock pile’ of surrendered bullbars?
How will the government provide a safe workplace for their ‘isolated’ employees and sub-contractors?
How many businesses will have to sack staff or be forced to close their doors because of legislation?
How will this decision affect the mining and tourism industries?

The questions keep going on and on.

Should this ‘ban the bull bar’ discussion become law, I believe people will make their view point loud and clear at the ballot box.

My understanding is that any crash, 60kmh or above, is classed as a ‘high speed’ crash, whether it be vehicle versus vehicle or vehicle versus pedestrian.
I also believe the survival rate for a pedestrian involved in a crash over 40kmh decreases rapidly.

I have done my best to provide a balanced view on this subject. This is a very emotional and passionate issue – for both sides.
I believe we all need to take the emotions out, and deal with facts to attain a fair and unbiased view - provided we are given all the facts.

Take care out there.

Ross
DX grunt

I hope you added this to your vote as extra thought Ross.

[DX grunt]

Na. had to have a good think about it first. I've saved it as a word document for future reference.

[jace75]

Ross what you do for a living?
you seem to have a fair knowledge about HSE requirements.

i only took notice as i am a HSE Manager

[XLR8]

I know i have already posted this and maybe AB can do a thread merge to tidy it up. But this answers alot of Ross's questions. I have not been on alot of the other forums spruking about this but I have been to 4WD Actions petition page. Nowhere do they give the facts and are almost running a scare campaign. People need to be fully informed before they start petitioning their local pollies. This can be worse for us 4WDers than the proposal itself if we appear to be ill informed trouble makers.

This issue has been ongoing since 2000 and has since been warped and twisted by political agendas, misinformation and over-passionte crusaders. Here is some information and links for those outside of the industry to fasmiiarise themselves with as much of the relevant material as I can find.

Bull Bars and Road Trauma Report, 2000 http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2000/pdf/BullBar_1.pdf

Summary of AS4876.1 2002, written using information/input from industry groups and results from above report (full version available for purchase SAI Global) - https://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/Internet/Primary/my+car/car+safety/safety+equipment/bull+bars/summary+of+the+australian+standard+for+bull+bars

Current Bull Bar design guidelines in Western Australia (presumably the same as other states as based on AS4876.1 2002 - http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/LBU_VS_CI_112.pdf

Study by Adelaide University in 2005 in to VFPS - http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/casrpubfile/157/CASR037.pdf

Excert from Australian Vehicle Standards Rules Ammendment Package 2008 Draft -
Bull bars: currently the Rules require an object fitted to a vehicle to be designed,
built and fitted to the vehicle in a way that minimises the likelihood of injury to a
person who makes contact with the vehicle. The provision calls for a subjective test
which is an unnecessary complication as there is a current Australian Standard
addressing the fitment of bull bars (and other protrusions). The proposal will require
bull bars to be fitted in accordance with the relevant Australian Standard, providing
clarity to the industry, vehicle owners and enforcement officers. It is believed that
there already is a high level of compliance with the Australian Standard from within
industry and therefore, the proposal is expected to have only a minor impact on the
industry. Full Version - http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Reports/AVSRAmendmntPackageDraftRISAug08.pdf)

Summary of actual Proposal circa 2009 (actual publication date unknown) - http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/files/Pedestrian_Safety_Requirement_Summary.pdf

Other related documents including Regulation Impact Statement - http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_comment.aspx

AAAA Position Paper, submitted June 2009 - http://www.aaaa.com.au/files/issues/PositionPaperBullbars.pdf


Extract from AAAA News In simple terms, if the regulation were adopted in full, there would be a requirement for every new vehicle sold in Australia to meet stringent pedestrian safety criteria, which would be administered via the Australian Design Rule (ADR) process. Full report - http://www.aaaa.com.au/news.asp?id=81

I am not condoning or condemning the regulations, only providing as much information as I can so you can be well informed. The biggest impact of the regulation will be on Bull Bar manufacturers and only in the cost aspect of R & D of new products that will comply to the new regulations. Th Proosal clearly states that the current AS4876.1 2002 will continue to apply for any MC (4WD or SUV) catgory vehicle.

As with the introduction ofAS4876.1 2002, there appears to be no intention to apply the regulations to vehicles/VFPS manufactured prior to the legislation date.

Happy reading,
Mike

[wildgu6]

Done buddy, My Trol would be to costly too maintain the damage sustained if i didnt have me Bullbe.
Thanks TJM for your support.........lol

Cheers Pete

[DX grunt]

Ross what you do for a living?
you seem to have a fair knowledge about HSE requirements.

i only took notice as i am a HSE Manager

I'll pm you.

[MS29431]

I Agree that everyone need to have a better understanding of all the pro's and cons of this arguement as there are alot of grey areas from state to state, thankyou for the info i found it to be a good read not only was there info on regulations for my 4X4 but also for my ute and the truck i drive it also goes into detail about the ADR compliance's also,
But i hope in the end they don't outlaw all bull bars as someone mentioned in an earlyer post.... where are our spotlights, antenna's, fishing rod holders and all other accesory's going to live and i can afford to replace bullbars, guards, grilles and bonnets everytime but not whole cars,
I Know it sounds like i am only thinking about myself in this instance but i love the look of a good bullbar on a vehicle
I Hope they dont ban 'em. Mike