Help with 12v wires on 24v Mq SWB

[79raven]

So I have a 7/83 Mq 24v Sd33 swb, like most cars 30 years old it shows signs of every man and his donkey rooting around with stuff. I have a manual that tells me there is a wire that goes from the 12v battery ( drivers side) + and then heads down to the fuse box ( mine has no cover either on the fuse box, so knowing what fuse is for whats even hard). This seems to be the description I have come across in all manuals I have found, but not the case in mine.

I have a 24v to 12v converter above the brake and clutch pedal and from what I have found its the norm for this car, but not the case in my manual....

The problem is where the dc converter is its very hard to see what wires are what and how its hooked up. I have traced the so called 12v yellow/ black stripe wire that goes into the fuse box thats my manual states is for the accessories, but it reads 24v on my multimeter......
Because I am new to Patrols I really have zero idea what its suppose to be or how its factory set up. A previous owner to make it more difficult for me has installed a decent dc converter wired to a switch and hardwired o the 24v battery.

I am getting 24v at the yellow/ black wire but nothing at the light green/yellow stereo wires and clock wire, is it right that its 24v at the fuse box? Does it then go to the factory converter and from there 12v goes to the accessories?

Ive taken the cluster out and had a look but your advise an explanation of how its setup from factory would save me from taking the whole dash out.

If the factory dc converters rooted then I would like to wire the aftermarket dc converter so it takes its place, but if the factory converters ok I would like to use it and use the converter running off the ignition to power a stereo amp and a fridge, leaving the only constant 12v being for the cd player's constant that has a max of 10A power consumption.
Please help
Raven

[Yendor]

To the best of my knowledge they did not have a factory voltage reducer fitted (can you post a photo of the unit you are referring to).

They had a relay that was turned on via 24 volts but switched 12 volts for the radio and cigarette socket.

If there was a factory reducer fitted it would only just be big enough to run the original radio not a hope of running a CD player.

[79raven]

It has written on it
Model EP-3064
Input DC-24V
Output Dc-12V 1A
Then it seems to be connected to another box just up the brace a little from the box that has written on it whats above.
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg616/79raven/GEDC0070_zps4fb8cf5b.jpg
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg616/79raven/GEDC0072_zps55d9b95c.jpg
Im hoping the 1A aint the fact its only going to produce 1 amp. I thought it was suppose to produce 12v for the lighter, radio and interior light?

[GQ TANK]

I I ust check the manual I have it has a relay - switched by ignition and centre taps the 2 batterys to get 12V

On 23 volt setup - I always use a 24-12 volt invertor -

[79raven]

Now I know its only 1A ill definitely be using the dc converter I have in it now in the car. The dc converter I have seems to output 14.4V, could I not use that as an alternator to purely charge a 12v small battery and run accessories off the 12v? I would still run the dc converter off a relay and have it only kick in when the ignition is on.

[Yendor]

A big 1 amp, that's smaller then I was expecting.

If your DC converter is just a 24 volt to 12 volt reducer then no. You will need something like this

http://www.redarc.com.au/products/product/smart-start-bcdc/

Another option is a charge equaliser

http://www.redarc.com.au/products/category/ae-ce-series-charge-equaliser/

[79raven]

Ill take a picture of the one I have tomorrow. It was in the car when I bought it. Just surprises me it produces 14.4v, same as what a good alternator charge will produce to a 12v battery. It does it too vial all 4 wires coming out of it.
The previous owner had wired it up to a switch on the column, running direct from the 24v battery + to the switch and then back to the dc converter. So if you pull the switch the converter is on no matter what the ignitions doing. I had planned on running from the ignition to a 24v relay and then to the dc converter and then out to the 12v accessories but if I can use it to charge a 12v battery then all the better.
Ill take that picture tomorrow and pull it out to see if I can find any details
Cheers guys

[79raven]

Doesnt matter, I understand after some reading that I may overcharge the battery unless I either spend more money on a conditioner or run it via s switch and use a gauge to measure when to turn it on and off. Too much hassle at the moment seeing we have a month before the lease ends on this house and I need to find another rental.
The main reason I am asking all this is because I am planning to use the dc converter off a 24v relay attached to the ignition ( or relay for the factory dc converter if possible seeing it does the same thing) and running the constant for the mp3 player I have off the 12v battery. The player states in the manual it uses a max of 10A, if thats the only thing running 12v off the 12v battery will that be enough to root the battery charge wise? I cant find out how much it uses when the player is off but I would assume not much.
Im no sparky, I can hook these things up but I am not knowledgeable enough to know about this kind of stuff.

[Yendor]

Doesnt matter, I understand after some reading that I may overcharge the battery unless I either spend more money on a conditioner or run it via s switch and use a gauge to measure when to turn it on and off. Too much hassle at the moment seeing we have a month before the lease ends on this house and I need to find another rental.

Yes it will just end up overcharging the battery.



The main reason I am asking all this is because I am planning to use the dc converter off a 24v relay attached to the ignition ( or relay for the factory dc converter if possible seeing it does the same thing) and running the constant for the mp3 player I have off the 12v battery. The player states in the manual it uses a max of 10A, if thats the only thing running 12v off the 12v battery will that be enough to root the battery charge wise? I cant find out how much it uses when the player is off but I would assume not much.
Im no sparky, I can hook these things up but I am not knowledgeable enough to know about this kind of stuff.


This would be the cheapest way for you to set it up now.

Have your DC convertor switched on by a 24 volt relay when the ignition is on and the memory wire from the radio connected to the 12 volt battery in your vehicles 2 battery system.

The problem is connecting any 12 volt accessory to the 12 volt battery in a 24 volt system will shorten the life of both batteries.

You will need to connect an ammeter in series in the memory wire to find out how much current it draws.

You could do regular charging of the batteries by a good quality 240 volt charger and also swap the batteries over in the vehicle. This should help extend battery life.

There are some cheap DC convertors on Ebay, especially if you purchase from overseas, who knows how good the quality is.

This one even has a radio memory connection.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24-VOLT-TO-12-VOLT-VOLTAGE-REDUCER-10-AMP-OUTPUT-WITH-RADIO-MEMORY-/290831897764?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b6ee94a4&_uhb=1#ht_2020wt_1348

[79raven]

I though to create the dc conversion from 24 to 12v takes power?
I have found the same Redarc in car battery charger on ebay for under $300. Eventually once the move is done and the inevitable clean up of funds after such a move I will purchase one and drop another 12v battery in the car. That way I can power the mp3 player, audio amp ( going to run of dc converter until then so it switches on via accessories) and a few charge points for a fridge in the back, gps etc.
Looking price wise with the charger, battery tray and a small 12v battery the lot should come in under $500. Until then both batteries are brand new and have a 24 month warranty, so if they stuff up I suppose Ill get another under warranty. The company doesnt need to know I am running 12v for the stereo till then I suppose.
Could I use the 24v relay for the factory accessories to run the dc converter? If so where is it?
Really, thanks guys for all the help and idea's. Some things are in the works and some things are a band aid till then. I like to know what direction I am going beforehand, so all this advise is REALLY appreciated. I have many years experience on 12v cars, but 24v and 4x4's are new to me. I did tell a mate I like the challenge of not having the " norm" that I am so use to but to tell you all honestly I now know how little I know about this setup. The only other 4x4 I have owned was a Niva and she is not even close to the Mq's league.
Advise, idea's anything from you all is greatly appreciated. I have a few things on the car in the pipeworks and am under the pump looking for a house but I assure you all when things settle down I will start a thread.
Cheers
Raven

[Yendor]

Yes it does use power reducing 24 volts down to 12 volts, this is why the units get hot.

Just swap the batteries from left to right every month or so until you can get the 12 volt battery set up.

Because your vehicle had a reducer fitted I'm not sure if you will also have the relay. If it does it should be mounted on the driver side inner guard just behind the RHS headlight.

That relay will more then likely only be good for about 20 amps and will be switching 12 volts (this can be changed).

You might be better off getting a new relay.

The other thing to remember is these vehicles only came out with a small alternator. You may also need to look at fitting a larger alternator to run all these accessories.

[79raven]

Cheers for the alt heads up. Ill have a look into it because the previous owner had done some work on it because it was a keeper for him. I know he rebuilt the injector pump, replaced the rear diff, put a lift kit on it, hd 24v wench and I think the dc converter. Whats the stock alt model on these if you know?
If I run a 12v battery and charge it off an in car charger, wouldnt the stock alt only be charging the 12v battery and the factory 24v stuff? I would assume there would be more load on the 12v battery than the 24v setup but please correct me if I am wrong.
One thing I thought of too, if the current dc converter produces enough amps and seeing its producing 14.4v, if I ran it off the accessory to charge a 12v battery wouldnt it just be like an alternator in a car and not overcharge the 12v battery due to only being charged while in use?

[Yendor]

Cheers for the alt heads up. Ill have a look into it because the previous owner had done some work on it because it was a keeper for him. I know he rebuilt the injector pump, replaced the rear diff, put a lift kit on it, hd 24v wench and I think the dc converter. Whats the stock alt model on these if you know?

It will be written on the alternator, my guess standard would be 20-30 amps.



If I run a 12v battery and charge it off an in car charger, wouldnt the stock alt only be charging the 12v battery and the factory 24v stuff? I would assume there would be more load on the 12v battery than the 24v setup but please correct me if I am wrong.

The alternator needs to charge the 24 volt batteries, run all the vehicle's 24 volt stuff and also run your in car charger or converter.



One thing I thought of too, if the current dc converter produces enough amps and seeing its producing 14.4v, if I ran it off the accessory to charge a 12v battery wouldnt it just be like an alternator in a car and not overcharge the 12v battery due to only being charged while in use?


No, the vehicle's alternator has a regulator built in that reduces the charge rate as the battery charges up.

Your DC converter will keep charging the battery, even when the battery becomes fully charged.

The potential for an overcharged battery to explode is high and the damage this can do to you and your vehicle........it's just not worth the risk.

Did you have a look at the charge equaliser in my other post? With these you don't even need to mount a separate 12 volt battery.

[79raven]

I did but I dont understand how it works. Seeing the alt considers the car a 24v single battery does it not equalize the charge as is to both batteries? Or does the equalizer itself understand there are 2x 12v batteries in series and deliver charge to what battery is under more load than the other?
I cant thank you enough for your time here. I am sure you have answered these questions a million times but I appreciate it and your time.
Thanks
Rob

[Yendor]

Yes your 24 volt alternator thinks it is charging one big 24 volt battery. The problem is when you connect 12 volt accessaries to one of the batteries this battery becomes more discharged then the other battery.

The alternator doesn't know that only one battery is low in charge. It senses that the big 24 volt battery is a bit low, so increases the charge rate.

What happens then is the battery that doesn't have the 12 volt accessaries connected to it is overcharged and the one that does never gets fully charged.

What the charge equaliser does is sense that one battery is low and basically gives extra charge to that one.

With this setup you'll connect all your 12 volt accessaries to the 12 volt battery (the battery that has it's negative connected to the engine block).

Best way of doing this is via an aftermarket fusebox. One fuse will need to be a 12 volt constant feed for your radio memory the rest can be switch on with ignition via a 24 volt relay.

[79raven]

Cool. Sounds like thats what I want. An equalizer will solve all the problems right now. I have already organized a constant wire from the 12v battery ( not yet connected) with an inline fuse for the constant of the player.
Do you think if I ran the constant for the amp ( 20A) off the 12v battery after the equalizer is put on it would be ok aswell as the players constant ( 10A max)? I was going to not run a constant for the amp but run an accessory feed, but even though its a small amp ( 60w rms x4) I would like to run a decent gauge wire to it with a clean 12v feed for the amp if possible. Then I could run any other accessories that might be connected to the lighter plugs off the dc converter.
Theres a charge equalizer on ebay right now on auction for starting price of $84, right now I really need to save all my pennies for the move so I cant do it asap. Maybe in the future there will be another going cheap when we have moved or on tax time Ill purchase a brand spanker.
Mate, your a legend and worth more money
Thank you

[Yendor]

Yes it would be best to run the radio and amp from the 12 volt battery, this will give you the cleanest 12 volt supply.

The charge equalisers come in different sizes (higher the output the dearer the unit is). What I recommend you do is make a list of all the 12 volt accessaries including their wattage if known and then contact RedArc and see what unit they recommend for you.

The $85 one on ebay only has a 10 amp output, I think this will be to low for your needs. See what RedArc recommends before purchasing.

[79raven]

Thanks for the heads up. I didnt know they came in different amp outputs, so you have saved me again. The Mp3 player uses a max of 10A, so the ebay one would do the player but not the amp. The amp has a 20A fuse in it, so I assume its 20A..... They will be the only constant 12V I will run. The cigarette lighter plugs ( I plan on having 2- stock one and one in the back) and anything else 12V will run off the Dc converter that will run off the ignition switch. The Dc converter has 4 outputs all producing 14.4V ( still unsure of amp's), so that should be fine to use for accessory feed for the mp3 player and 2 cigarette plugs I would assume. Ive ran my spottys in series off the stock spotlight plug and plan on putting 2X rear interior lights in the back, but I will run those too in series.
So, I need atleast a 30A equalizer. Man, I am so chuffed now I have a direction because this 24v setup was really bumming me out with the whole car. I know I have said it I think every post but really thank you.
One last question in a non related issue if I can ( its a quick one), I have to do my front bearings. I have purchased 2 kits and need to buy a hub socket, I have one I am watching once again on ebay, but the listing states Patrols have 3 different styles of bearing bolts. They say there is a pin type, a 52mm and a 54mm. Do you know what typle a 7/83 SWB Mq with a c200 diff would be?

[Yendor]

If your fridge is 12 volts I would also plan on running that from the 12 volt battery as well.

Those ratings you gave for the Mp3 and stereo amp are worse case.......there is a fault within the system.

Normal running they might only draw about 70-80% of that.

Same with your fridge it might draw 4-5 amps but the duty cycle might be 70% on 30% off, plus you may only use the fridge for 4 or 5 days a month.

This is why I recommend having a chat with RedArc and see what size unit they recommend especially seeing there is an increase in price of $100 plus for every extra 10 amps. They might say you can get away with the 20amp unit.

Connecting your 12 volt spot lights in series will work as long as the bulb holders are above ground. The problem is if one bulb blows both lights will go out. You can purchase 24 volt bulbs.

You did use a relay to switch the lights on?

Sorry I can't help with the wheel bearings, hopefully someone else will answer that question for you.

If you don't get any replies try starting another thread with the question.

[79raven]

Can do. I'll definately be calling RedArc after the long weekend to get an idea of what I am after.
The car amp ( Philips DAP-3040) I have I dont have any spec's on and cant find any on the net but seeing it has the 20A fuse I would say that would be its max. I havent gotten a fridge yet but its another purchase in the pipe works once things are sorted. I miss going bush and once the Mq is in a state that I can trust it on the roads Ill be getting out there in the bush asap. Ive only owned it for about a month or 2.
What I did with the spot lights was use the factory option wires one one side to run them in series and I am yet to purchase a 24v relay that goes in the fuse block ( 15A). That way they will come on when I have the high beams on. I have checked for power at the fuse box to the spotlights and there is power, just need to fuse it. The lights are Hella but I dont think they would handle 24v globes as I have a hunch they would melt. They came off a D21 I had and I have once again zero spec's on them due to them coming with the d21 when I bought it. They just seem too plastic for 24v globes. I was going to see if I could find out for sure by searching any numbers on them on the net but thought by having 2 X 12v 110w globes running in series I think they actually would use less power than if I did replace them with 24v globes, not to mention it leaves the option of adding another 2 more 12v lights in the not too distant future. Seeing my bull bar has mounts for 4 spot lights Id like to run a set of narrow and wide angle beams for maximum coverage.

[Yendor]

I would look at purchasing a fridge that you can run on both 12 and 24 volts.

I wasn't aware they had factory spot light wiring.

The 24 volt bulbs will use as much power as the 12 volt bulbs in series and produce the same amount of heat.

[79raven]

Yes but in theory I am only running 1 X 24 light and I could run 4 X 12v lights and use the same power as 2 X 24's.
I didnt even think about a 24v fridge. Ill look into it but are they dearer or batter than a 12v one? running a 24v one would make sense.

[Yendor]

Yes but in theory I am only running 1 X 24 light and I could run 4 X 12v lights and use the same power as 2 X 24's.
I didnt even think about a 24v fridge. Ill look into it but are they dearer or batter than a 12v one? running a 24v one would make sense.

Sorry this is not the case when comparing series and parallel circuits.

[79raven]

Bugger. I had read it was on the net, but half the shit on the nets false. So whats the formula to work it out?
Im a bit of a speaker nut and do plenty of series/ parralel stuff when wiring up boxes, so I kind of have an idea but when it comes to electricity...........