Just about to have a bloody bonfire!!!

[GQPorkroll]

Seriously pissed off with this thing now. Long story, ill start at the start.

Bought the truck with a dual battery setup. Aux side was shit so I replaced it with a deep cycle battery, shortly after the start side battery stuffed up so I put a new heavy duty battery there. (12mo ago +-)

Everything went good for a few months then it was slow to start. Checked battery and got it replaced under warranty, I used the Century battery in my soarer and put a Alco battery in the troll on the start side. Thought that was the end of it, but still had slow starting dramas. Changed starter. Everything was fine.

Truck was laid up for about a week or 2, battery was absolutely dead flat. Jump started it off the aux battery and it ran fine. Drove it about 50km and next morning it wouldn't start again. Jump started it and drove to work, then went for another drive, probably 50-60km, next morning, dead again.

Ordered a new alternator and sat it in the back yard for 3 weeks or so, fired straight up and I thought it was going to be ok, but after using it for a few days, the battery was always dead in the morning, but the aux battery would always jump start it. The volt gauge was showing around 13ish volts in the cab on the gauge.

Changed the alternator today, shit got worse. Main battery isn't getting any charge at all. I put my multimeter across the battery and it was draining with the truck on, the block behind it that is for the dual battery set up showed 11v on one and 9v on the other. Couldn't access the alternator to get an accurate reading, however it's all the same, I put a new terminal on the positive lead as this alternator has a bigger bolt, and I had to reposition the earth lead to another place on the alternator. The plug to the regulator is connected securely and all bolts for battery wire and earth are tight.

Almost everything is running off the aux battery (fridge, cb, sub, HID's, etc) and only the original electrics and a camera in the cig plug is running off the main battery. Nothing is running when the truck is off to drain the battery. All terminals are tight and in good condition.

I noticed that when I changed the alternator, the battery gauge stays on as do the red lights, this never happened before. I disconnected the relay for ignition and they go out, but changing the relay didn't help, they still stay on when I turn the key off. I'm just disconnecting the battery now.

A few things: my key is loose, but it turns the truck off and all functions on the barrel work. I am sus on my battery, ever since I've fitted it, I had a feeling it was faulty and regularly throw a charger on it to make sure it will start. The dual battery system is a fair few years old, and it seemed a bush mechanic owned the truck before me as I've encountered a lot of dodgy things since I've had it.

So, in my mind, I have 2 problems. The alternator isn't working, so it's either faulty from new (unlikely but possible) or it's due to me repositioning the earth lead. Also, my battery isn't charging properly. I suspect that the dual battery system is faulty.

No idea why my dash is staying activated when switched off. I don't mind changing my barrel, as my passengers door lock is stuffed and I will also replace my rear door if I get a complete set, but I think it's more related to the alternator than the ignition barrel.

Where should I turn now? I'm going nuts.

[the ferret]

Mate, you need to have a good chat with "Yendor"
He's the man.
Cheers, the ferret.

[Yendor]

The earth wire that connects to the alternator is not there to earth the alternator as such. The alternator's main earth is via the engine and then via the main negative battery cable.

The other end of the black wire connects to a couple of body earth locations. So I don't think this is your problem.

If you disconnect the two pin plug from the alternator does this turn off the battery gauge and red lights?

Is the original plug at the alternator still used or has this been replaced with single connectors?

[P4trol]

If you suspect something is draining the battery, disconnect both positive leads. One by one touch each individual wire on the positive terminal. (if yours is like mine and has 1000 add on wires to the terminals). With the ignition off of course. Watch for any sparks or small 'click' from the end of the wire.

The other way is use an ammeter.

Either trace the circuit or leave that wire(s) off and reconnect everything else. See what doesn't work.

On mine it was the radio/carpc.

[GQPorkroll]

Yendor, ill go and check that now. It's still the original Nissan plug on the regulator.

Patrol, tried that, no sparks when I connect either, but I can hear a click when I connect the main battery from the area the dual battery box thing is.

[GQPorkroll]

Yendor, yes, as soon as the reg wire is disconnected the dash lights/volt gauge goes off

[threedogs]

I trust we have avoided a Bonfire ????
Sounds like its one of 3 things
Bad earth, not charging or a short
Bummer no fire,

[Yendor]

Yendor, yes, as soon as the reg wire is disconnected the dash lights/volt gauge goes off

Your new alternator has issues.

You just need to make sure the White wire with a Red trace connects to the "L" terminal at the alternator and the White wire connects to the "S" and has 12 volts in it with ignition off.

I think this will be fine because you still have the original plug connected but it might pay to double check.

There is a good chance that your old alternator did have another problem that was causing the battery to go flat overnight.

[GQPorkroll]

Yeah I suspected the bloody new alternator the whole time as it was charging acceptably before, but I think the old alternator may have had the diode problem.

Ill double check the wires are going the right way but as it's the factory plug and it can only go on one way, I think the problem lies further inside. What a bastard, it was a prick of a job to fit it!

Cheers mate.

[GQPorkroll]

Wires checked, both going to the correct terminal, multimeter shows 11.9 V in white wire with key in the off position.

I suspected that bastard thing all along, it was too bloody hard to fit for it to work properly first time, FFS.

I think ill still look for a replacement dual battery setup to put my mind at rest. I think I should be able to source a good deal at work, got a trade show coming up soon. I'd prefer to have a bigger gauge wire and soldered terminals too.

[Yendor]

Hopefully your next alternator will sort out all your problems. The most common cause of a battery draining overnight would be the alternator, if it's not that, then we need to start looking at aftermarket accessories fitted to your vehicle. Get the alternator charging first then we can worry about that.

You loose key/ignition switch is more then likely caused by a worn key, do you have a second key you can try?

From what you have posted I don't think you have any major problems with your dual battery setup, because the 2nd battery has always been able to start the vehicle.

Saying that they don't last for ever, so it might be a good idea to upgrade it.

Cheers Rodney

[GQPorkroll]

Yeah I didn't think the alternator would drain the battery overnight, however I've never really played around with them much and I didn't realize there was 12v going to them with the ignition off, so if I had the leaky diode it would explain it. I thought it was strange that if I drove the car it would be flat, but if I parked it for 3 weeks or so I could get in and start it, but if it wasn't supplying enough power, the battery would have been continually drained, and drained further at night when it was parked. Makes sense when you know, cheers!

You're probably right, the aux battery is always charged so possibly the dual battery setup is working, and due to the old alternator not charging 100%, the aux battery got more charge than the start battery. Ill fit a new alternator shortly and see how it all goes, and possibly change the dual battery system over if I still have dramas, and then have the battery checked as my last resort.

God I'm pissed off now, it was an absolute prick to fit, I had to do it in between parenting duties waiting for kids to sleep or go for a walk with mum, got it all fitted up and it's worse than before.

[Bloodyaussie]

God I'm pissed off now, it was an absolute prick to fit, I had to do it in between parenting duties waiting for kids to sleep or go for a walk with mum, got it all fitted up and it's worse than before.

I know your pain mate... sometimes the smallest jobs turn into the biggest drain just from the distractions of bringing kiddies into the world!!!!!!

You are in good hands with Yendor... he has no sense of humor but does know his electrics!!!! he he!!!

[BigRAWesty]

I'll bring the marshmallows...

Ow, sorry. Not cool. Hope you get it sorted..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[krbrooking]

I dont know a lot about electrics but if it is the alternator why would it be charging the aux batt and not the crank, to me i would have checked the duel batt set up, but like I said dont know much bout electrics, so would be interesting to know what the prob is and to understand how that could happen as most duel batt set ups should charge the crank batt over the aux. I am just asking for personal interest and not disagreeing with Yendor as He obviously knows what he is talking about and my understanding of it is way off.

[Yendor]

I dont know a lot about electrics but if it is the alternator why would it be charging the aux batt and not the crank, to me i would have checked the duel batt set up, but like I said dont know much bout electrics, so would be interesting to know what the prob is and to understand how that could happen as most duel batt set ups should charge the crank batt over the aux. I am just asking for personal interest and not disagreeing with Yendor as He obviously knows what he is talking about and my understanding of it is way off.



The alternator only stopped charging today after it was replaced. At the moment neither battery is being charged.





Changed the alternator today, shit got worse. Main battery isn't getting any charge at all. I put my multimeter across the battery and it was draining with the truck on, the block behind it that is for the dual battery set up showed 11v on one and 9v on the other. Couldn't access the alternator to get an accurate reading, however it's all the same, I put a new terminal on the positive lead as this alternator has a bigger bolt, and I had to reposition the earth lead to another place on the alternator. The plug to the regulator is connected securely and all bolts for battery wire and earth are tight.




Previously the problem was the main battery would go flat overnight and he would need to use the second battery to start the vehicle.

Going by the voltmeter in the vehicle the old alternator was charging around 13ish volts.

The old alternator was replaced for possible being the cause of drain that was flattening the battery overnight.

There is a chance there are other problems with the vehicle as well (especially with the battery that only has 9 volts) but we need to get the alternator charging first.

[krbrooking]

Sorry must have read it wrong makes a lot more sense now thanks for clearing that up Yendor.

[Yendor]

No worries, it was a very good first post, it had a lot of information in it.

[GQPorkroll]

Sorry I should have said that the crank battery actually had 11.5v in it initially, but as it sat for a few days I put a jump start pack on it (gas and running MSD) but when I jump started it, it ran, and disconnected the jump pack, then reading gave me 9v after running the truck for a few minutes when it started to splutter, and I twigged that the alternator wasn't charging as it was just draining my battery and then shutting down when it ran out of power.

Alternator is off now, taking it back in first thing tomorrow, get another one on the way and possibly even get my original e reconditioned, if an aftermarket one was faulty from the box I can't bring myself to throw a genuine one out if it may only need a small repair.

Ill keep everyone posted.

[Robbomaz]

No mention of the magic smoke. Once the magic smoke gets out all h*ll breaks loose!

[mudnut]

Possible the aux battery will remain charged because that is what the dual battery system is designed for. An alternator isn't a real Hi-tech piece of equipment. The patrol manuals I have downloaded do have procedures on how to check Diodes. Before you take the alternator apart, scratch or paint some aligning marks on the body and stator.

[mudnut]

No mention of the magic smoke. Once the magic smoke gets out all h*ll breaks loose!

Damn , I was hoping no-one else worked out that electricity is a myth and that smoke drives everything.

[GQPorkroll]

Don't rule the bonfire out just yet,

New alternator today. Fitted it up and connected everything, turned the key on (wasn't attempting to start it as I don't have the belts to fit) and then back off, volt gauge and red lights remained on.

Not sure where to turn now, the alternator is physically the same as the other one, looks the same, wiring is the same, red goes to batt, black goes to ground on alternator, plug goes in the top, that's it. Everything is tight, all terminals are tight and now sprayed with the special spray after being cleaned.

I haven't disturbed anything else that I can see while changing the alternator, but this never happened prior to me changing the alternator.

I'm just hoping now that as the second alternator wasn't charging, the relay is sticking open and there isn't enough power to pull it shut. There's only around 9v in the start side battery. I can't confidently say when the reds staying on in the off position started, as I was tinkering under the bonnet and turning the car on and off from there, so it's possible it only started toward the end of the evening when the battery was quiet drained. I can't even say honestly if it did it when I had a jump pack or another battery connected, but I do know I only noticed it happening after chasing wiring and testing volts.

Am I just going nuts or is this a likely scenario? I won't have my belts until Wed and tomorrow my girls are in daycare so hopefully, weather and wife permitting, I will have a full day to devote to getting everything right. I can hear a click from the right hand front, near the headlight when I disconnect the battery. I also noticed I'm getting a spark when I disconnect the battery. I tried removing the wiring for the HID from the earth side but the click and the spark still exists. I'm not overly worried about the spark, as I know when I pulled the lead off, the door was open and I had 3 interior lights running, plus the memory for my stereo, so perhaps it was from that, as I don't recall it doing it yesterday when the door was shut.

My first thing to do will be to connect a charged jump pack and try turning the key on and off. If it still does it, I will disconnect the new alternator and fit the old one and see what happens. From there, I will take both to the auto electrician and just throw them both on his tester to make certain they're making volts and that the new one isn't wired differently however as there's no magic smoke, I can't see that being the case.

Failing all that, I will take 5 Valium with a long neck of VB and worry about it at a later date.

[GQPorkroll]

It might be worthwhile for me to say I am using a Jaylec 90amp unit.

[Yendor]

Your not having much luck are you..........

So with the ignition off and you disconnect the 2 pin plug at the alternator do the warning lights go off?

Measure the voltage in the White wire with a Red trace with the plug disconnected from the alternator and the ignition off?

Are you sure the red lights weren't on with your old alternator?

Do you know the part number for your new alternator?

[GQPorkroll]

Ok firstly, I connected the jump pack and turned the key off, same thing, volt gauge and 2 red lights stayed on. One was brake, plus the one next to it (too frazzled to remember what it was)

Ignition off, key out, if I pull the factory plug with 2 wires out, dash goes off.

Ignition off, key out, the thick white wire in the factory plug currently has 11v.

Never had this problem prior to changing alternator.

New alternator is a Jaylec 90amp 65-3141 12v 90amp for Nissan Patrol, sourced thru Cooldrive via their computer program at work

[GQPorkroll]

Whoaaaa. Just searched that part number and it's showing that alternator for the TD42. I phoned Cooldrive myself and told them it was a TB42 and I wanted a bigger unit as I would like more than 65 amps. Might be their stuff up as the rep recommended that unit, ill go thru their catalogue and see if it's listed for an option on the GQ TB for more amps

[Yendor]

What voltage does the white wire with a red trace have? and does the voltmeter stop reading when you disconnect the plug?

[GQPorkroll]

Yes as soon as plug is disconnected, the voltmeter stops reading. I've packed my kit away for now but will check tomorrow.

[First Nissan]

you could try plugging in the original alternator without mounting it to check if there is any change to the warning lights fault.

[GQPorkroll]

Yeah I plan to do that tomorrow, not sure if I have enough wire to do it, and too dark to look now, but tomorrow ill rip the new one out and check.

It does say on Cooldrive site the alternator is for 95 and on TB and late TD 42, there's no vacuum pump on it, but I wonder if it's wired differently as there is another alternator listed for DA? mavericks and GQ trolls from 88-94 (mine is 88) not much could be different though, apart from the regulator wires, does anyone know if they're reversed on later trucks?

[GQPorkroll]

Ok it appears I have incorrect information.

Rod, first off, with ignition on and off, the white wire has 11-5-12v. The white/red trace wire had 7.5 off and 9.6 on.
I connected this plug to my old alternator and had the same problem. (Batt and earth still connected to new alt)
It also appears now that removing the plug doesn't affect the dash, I'm certain that yesterday, when I disconnected the plug, the dash lights and voltmeter went off, tonight, when I double checked 3 times, disconnecting the plug had no effect and I had to either disconnect the battery or ignition relay to make the dash go off.

[Yendor]

It's ok,

The white wire with a red trace should not have power in it with the ignition off and disconnected from the alternator.

Something is causing the ignition circuit to have power when it shouldn't.

The ignition relay you are removing is the bottom one beside the fuse box inside the vehicle? yes?

What happens when you put the relay back in (without turning on the ignition?) do the lights come back on?

[GQPorkroll]

Yes that's what I though, it would also explain why my battery is draining.

Yes, the relay is the bottom one in the fuse box. If I pull it out, the lights go out. If I plug it straight back in with the key still off, the lights stay off. I've swapped the relay with the 2 other relays in the box and had the same result.

The lights that stay on are the brake/handbrake light and oil light, (first and second lights on bottom row) battery light doesn't come on at all.

[Yendor]

Has anything electrical been fitted to the vehicle recently?

[GQPorkroll]

Not recently, no. But I don't know how long all this has been happening for, I've been chasing a fault for some time, as I said, first a new battery, then a new starter, now the alternator.

I can't seem to trace it to anything specific, and as far as I can see, everything that has been fitted, apart from the HID light conversion and my air horn runs off the auxiliary battery. I have disconnected all aftermarket wiring from the main battery that I've added and tomorrow I'm going to look at the wiring that's been added prior to me, however there wasn't anything on the truck when I bought it, no cb, lights, fridge, anything, not even a stereo I don't think.

My MSD unit, HID's, fridge and sub and stereo were all installed by an auto electrician and they all run off the auxiliary battery.

Can I cut the signal wire and rewire it with switched 12v?

[Yendor]

What I think is happening is, for some reason there is a low voltage in the ignition circuit when the key is off.

This voltage is not enough to switch the ignition relay on but it is enough to keep it on when the ignition is turned off.

Do you have problems shutting the engine down? does it want to run on? try disconnecting your MSD and see if the lights stay on.

[GQPorkroll]

No, it normally shuts down straight away, maybe a little bit of run on, on a hot day, but nothing incredibly bad, a few rotations at most. Ill disconnect everything off the auxiliary battery tomorrow, one by one and see what happens.

Now that I think about it, when my HID's were installed, I used a ARB lighted switch, the auto lec told me that when he turned them on, then off, and back on in quick succession, one light wouldn't come back on, and when the HID's were switched off, and the car lights pulled back to low beam, the high beam light and the 2 lights in the driving light switches would stay mildly illuminated. It pissed me off, so I decided I'd just have him disconnect the light circuit from the switches and they all worked fine.

[GQPorkroll]

Ok I'm too headscrewed to keep fiddling with it today, cant think.

I disconnected the auxiliary battery totally. Tested the white/red trace wire with key off, no current. I will be re connecting things one by one and seeing which thing is at fault and going from there.

Turned the key on and off, still have red lights staying on. I'm starting to think now it might be the dual battery set up as all that was connected was the starter battery, nothing on the earth side, and only factory wiring on positive side.

My next step will be to disconnect the dual battery set up and just run the charge lead to the main battery. If this doesn't work, bring marshmallows and cocoa because its gonna go boom.

[GQPorkroll]

Ok progress....

Removed the auxiliary battery, no drain through alternator now. Will chase that later.

Red light/volt problem SOLVED. Beside the battery, there is a tray with relays under it. Removed that and there is 3 relays, AC, Horn and Ign/Choke. Truck is running a Holley and doesn't have a choke as its on gas. Disconnected this relay, problem solved. Key and dash function as normal. I'm not sure what else it controls, if I need to, ill replace it, if it's only for the choke, I won't.

Next step is to connect the belts and start it up, make sure I have charge and then look for the drain on the aux battery.

I will still replace the dual battery setup, this one is rubbish, tbh, it's at least 10 years old and wires are brittle and too thin for my liking.

For now, I think I have fixed my major problem. Will see what happens tomorrow when I put the belts on and fire it up.

[Yendor]

Sounds like you have had a win.

Funny thing is I was looking at that relay last night in the wiring diagram but I couldn't see how it would cause your warning lights to stay on.

You need to make sure the battery/alternator warning light comes on in the dash now when then the ignition is turned on and the alternator is plugged in.

[GQPorkroll]

Yeah it's funny, I googled my symptoms last night and on another Troll forum a guy had the same problem, strangely enough he'd removed his carby and when it was reinstalled, the problem went away.

My original carby was removed in around June or July last year as I had the holley conversion done, but the problem only started when I changed the alternator. I wonder if perhaps when I went swimming the open connector got wet and shorted the relay out.

As long as everything else works with it disconnected, it's gone. I can't see why I'd need it as there's no choke, but the ignition part has me worried. Ill source a new relay just in case and make a plug for the female that should connect to the carby and that should be that.

Thanks for helping me through it mate, it's frustrating when something like this happens as there's no logic to it and doesn't make sense that it should happen.

[GQPorkroll]

I'm now officially, totally stumped.

New alternator fitted, new relay installed. Everything tight, checked and double checked, relay for ignition has been swapped around, no sparking, shorting, no drain when ignition off and no lights on when key turned off.

Turn key on, no battery light illuminates, start motor, no volts produced to battery. Checked the wire from alternator to the dual battery with motor running, zero, start battery has around 11.4 and 10 in aux battery.

I'm absolutely flummoxed now and don't know where to turn.

[Yendor]

The battery light in the dash needs come on when you turn the ignition on for the alternator to start charging.

Do any of the other warning light come on, such as brake and oil when you turn the ignition on?

[Yendor]

Would you like to give me a call?

[BigRAWesty]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but check your earth wires...

A bloke in our club was having funny issues similar to yours, did his head in as he check everything... What had happens was the earth wire had completely corroded inside the cover...
The give away was when he had the handbrake on and went to start it, sparks shot from the handle... It was shorting it out and welded the hand break on...

So replaced his earths, and handbrake and was all fine...

Fyi, if you look at this option, 25mm earth welding wire, $9/m from blackwoods...

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[GQPorkroll]

Yes the other warning lights come on but not the battery. I tested the white wire going into the alternator, 12v, tested the red wire coming out of alternator with motor running, 0v. I double checked the white/red wire with ignition switched off and it's 0v.

[Yendor]

Yes the other warning lights come on but not the battery. I tested the white wire going into the alternator, 12v, tested the red wire coming out of alternator with motor running, 0v. I double checked the white/red wire with ignition switched off and it's 0v.

What the Red wire? is that the White with a Red trace?

What voltage is the White with a Red trace wire, plug disconnected from the alternator, ignition on.

[GQPorkroll]

Thanks for the offer, Rod but ATM I haven't got my phone on me, I think I left it on charge at work and my home phone won't work where the cars are.

I noticed a heavy wire with a blown fuse so I'm going to replace that, but it seems to be something the previous owner fitted, I think it runs to the towbar for power in a camper trailer but at the moment I'm just clutching at straws.

Ive checked all fuses in the car, all good, can't see anything that could be the issue.

[GQPorkroll]

No I tested the heavy red batt wire, it's zero, and i tested the heavy white wire in the clip and it has 12v. I'm just about to test the white/red wire now with ignition on, it should have 12v shouldn't it?

[GQPorkroll]

Ok, ignition off, white wire 12v, on 12v. White/red off 0v on 12v

[Yendor]

No I tested the heavy red batt wire, it's zero, and i tested the heavy white wire in the clip and it has 12v. I'm just about to test the white/red wire now with ignition on, it should have 12v shouldn't it?

So the heavy red wire connects to the alternator via the nut? This should have battery voltage.

Originally this wire was white and would connect straight to the battery via a fusible link.

Can you see where this red wire goes to? does it go to that fuse you just found that is blown.

Are you able to post a picture of the wire connections at the back of the alternator and your battery isolator?

[Yendor]

There should be a fuse or fusible link in this red wire. It could be near the battery or near the battery isolator.

Also make sure you haven't left any wires off the battery when you reconnected them.

[GQPorkroll]

Success of sorts.

That wire had been replaced by the previous owner, Rod, it goes to the dual battery system as two identically faded/sized wires run from the dual battery setup. They're in spaghetti tubing, one goes to the alternator, one goes off in a splice of wires, connectors, chewing gum, electrical tape, etc underneath the manifold. Can't see where it terminates.

However I took an alligator wire connector and placed one end on the battery and the other on the middle block of the dual battery system, turned the key on, the battery light comes on. Start the motor, 14.5 on the start side, 12.5 on the aux side.

It works. It's convinced me the dual battery system is shit and the pervious owner was dodger than a seventies car salesman and I will be replacing everything.

Thanks very much for all your help, Rod, it's been amazing. I can assure you that the truck will be fixed properly and I won't need to borrow from your brain again to this extent!!

[Yendor]

No worries at all mate I enjoy the challenge.

I think it's a good idea to get an auto electrician to redo the wiring in the charge circuit and upgrade your isolator at the same time.