Well what do you do? Shuddering after balance

[taslucas]

Had a bit of a grinding noise start from my brakes. Was pulling a bit to one side too. I put new pads in the front and freed up a seized slider in the caliper. All easy fixed. But then realised I had noise coming from the back too. Looked like another stuck slider and sounded like a bit of rotor damage.
So:
I took it into the tyre place and got them to fit new pads and look at the rotor, hoping that they could machine it if need be. Turns out the rotor was pretty stuffed so I got them to fit new ones in the rear. Then the obligatory tyre rotate, balance and alignment. I drive it home and the brakes feel fresh and good:-).
BUT...... (why is there always a but!?) the patrol vibrates so bad at any speed over 75 that the rear vision mirror goes blurry and coins rattle around in the console!!
Does not vibrate through the steering wheel. I take it back to the shop and long story short, they don't know what to do and start blaming other parts of the vehicle. Now I know my undercarriage isn't the best but the point is that there was no vibration when I drove it into the shop. They rebalance my tyres, nip up the front bearings and still no good. So the next day they suggest rotating the tyres back to where they started. I say yeah alright we'll see if it helps.... No it doesn't! And they basically give up!!
So now I have a vehicle that vibrates severely over 75 and my tyres are back to where they started. On the bill it clearly itemises the tyre rotation, so really I should get my money back from that because they are back where they started.
But what to do about the vibration?? What could they have upset by doing rear rotors, pads, new fluid and wheel rotation and balance???

Damn this car!!!!

[BigRAWesty]

Take it back.. sounds Luke a tyre balance issue

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[Bob]

Check your front Rotors . Fitting new Pads could be making them grab

[taslucas]

Yeah the tyres have been balanced two more times since the first balance and rotate. They paid extra special attention the second and third time but the tyres were already perfectly balanced.....

Tap, crackle, pop

[taslucas]

Check your front Rotors . Fitting new Pads could be making them grab

I would feel that through the steering wouldn't I?

Tap, crackle, pop

[Bob]

Not sure but I would check them anyway

[taslucas]

Not sure but I would check them anyway

What would I be checking? When the front wheels are off the ground I can spin them freely and they don't seem to catch.

Tap, crackle, pop

[Bob]

Then they would appear to be OK.
If you dont have vibration through the steering it points to the Rear end ???

[BigRAWesty]

Sorry, just read the lot.. well it can only be the rotors. If its not coming threw the steering wheel then I'd say rear rotors ate out of balance.
It's a slim chance, but there they only other part which was changed..

Ask to have a new set bolted on

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[Sir Roofy]

Ive read it twice and think the same as westy could even have one slightly
out of round theres no other reason

[MudRunnerTD]

I agree I'd be pointing at the rear rotors. Ask them to swap them side to side and see if there is a change? Or fit your old ones if they are still about and see if the problem goes away. If it does then Hit them up.

[jack]

Yeap, check rear rotors. I had a similar issues years ago and they would balance the tyres and all looked perfect. Did all the checks, swaps etc. I eventually took it to another alignment specialist and explained the situation. He ran the wheel on a balancer while still on the car, it went nuts. In my case it was the actual hub that had issues, replaced it and all fixed. Took some investigation.

[taslucas]

Cheers guys I will look into the rotors.
I don't reckon it would be the hub as it was fine before??

Tap, crackle, pop

[pearcey]

Lucas mate did they adjust the hand brake.
I know it`s on the tail shaft but if it was adjusted and it`s slightly tight ti may cause a vibration through the car.

[Winnie]

Tighten up the loose nut behind the wheel...... Sorry mate had to be said

[threedogs]

Rotors may be out a tad as well might have crap behind new rotor causing vibration, Did shop have machine that balance 4x4 tyres?
Work backwards now and see what you can come up with

[taslucas]

Lucas mate did they adjust the hand brake.
I know it`s on the tail shaft but if it was adjusted and it`s slightly tight ti may cause a vibration through the car.

Nah they didnt adjust the handbrake.
I reckon putting the old rotors on for a quick trial would be the go. Just wondering what I should do if they don't have the old rotors. Is it worth swapping the new ones from side to side? If one of them is out of balance then wouldn't it be the same no matter which side it's on?

Tap, crackle, pop

[BigRAWesty]

Nah they didnt adjust the handbrake.
I reckon putting the old rotors on for a quick trial would be the go. Just wondering what I should do if they don't have the old rotors. Is it worth swapping the new ones from side to side? If one of them is out of balance then wouldn't it be the same no matter which side it's on?

Tap, crackle, pop

Straight out tell them it was fine before it come in here, and its not the tyres. The rotors have warranties and you want a new set put on.
They van either start with just the 2 rears, or do all 4 at once.
If not threaten to go to consumer affairs as there not honoring a faulty part warranty..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[taslucas]

Yeah I have told them straight out that it was fine before I went in. I'll be raising the unbalanced rotor idea today and see what they think.

Tap, crackle, pop

[BigRAWesty]

Tell them you got a second and third opinion on the issue when raising the rotor issue..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[taslucas]

Yeah just talked to them and they've agreed to swap the rotors and test drive Monday.

Tap, crackle, pop

[Sir Roofy]

yeah just talked to them and they've agreed to swap the rotors and test drive monday.

Tap, crackle, pop

take for a drive before they change them

[taslucas]

take for a drive before they change them

I've been driving it every day.

Tap, crackle, pop

[BigRAWesty]

Good one. Hopefully this solves your problem

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[Sir Roofy]

i've been driving it every day.

Tap, crackle, pop

um missed the point here get them to test drive it before the swap
and go with them

[taslucas]

um missed the point here get them to test drive it before the swap
and go with them

Ahh sorry, yeah they'll definitely test drive it. Probably won't be able go with them as I have to drop it off and go to work

Tap, crackle, pop

[Sir Roofy]

ahh sorry, yeah they'll definitely test drive it. Probably won't be able go with them as i have to drop it off and go to work

tap, crackle, pop

whats five minutes unless you know them id jump in get them to drop you off

[MudRunnerTD]

whats five minutes unless you know them id jump in get them to drop you off

Thats a good idea unless your work is a 30minute commute

[taslucas]

They guy I'm dealing with doesn't start till 9, and I go past at 8. The shudder is unmistakable, they don't need me there to show them. They've agreed to swap rotors anyway so that will happen regardless of a test drive. If the shudder is still there after changing rotors then I'll definitely jump in and have a proper drive with them.

Tap, crackle, pop

[my third 256]

put a little mark on the rotors so you can tell if it has been done
there is some shonkies out there that tell you they have done it and just fob you off

[Robo]

How did you go with the rotor idea problem?.
And if it was the rotors, post up who's "Brand name" so we can steer clear of em.

cheers

[Parksy]

My thought on this is that the rotors weren't properly installed square onto the hub, making it near impossible to install the wheel square onto the hub. Maybe some crud behind the rotor, or just shoddy workmanship.

[taslucas]

Well I got them to put the old rotors back on and still shuddering. Then the wheels were rotated back to where they started and still shuddering. So basically everything was back to where it started except for new rear pads and new fluid and it's still shuddering!!
The front wheel bearings were tightened up as they had bedded in ( it's been about 3000ks after fitting) but I cant see that making a problem??
Always chasing ya tail in circles!!

FanTapstic!

[Parksy]

When they put new rotors on the rear, did they clean the disks with brake cleaner? They usually have a protective film that must be cleaned off, otherwise will wreak havoc on your brake pads.

[Bigrig]

Dumb question as I haven't read back through every post, but is there any play in the front or rear wheels at all when off the ground? As in bearing play on the wheels, or swivel hub bearing from the trunions (knuckle joint) on the front??

I take it the wheels and tyres have been checked to ensure none of them are out of round, tyres haven't delaminated in a certain spot, no scalloping of tread from worn shocks etc?? All of those can produce wobbles and/or shakes ...

Lastly - and again, assume its been done - but what about tail shaft balance?

That's on top of all suspension bushes also ..

Sorry to hear what a pain it's being mate.

[mudski]

Check rear shocker rubbers and all bar rubbers on the rear end. I assume when they did the work it went up on a hoist with the axles hanging down. If so that could have been enough to dislodge a dodgy shocker rubber and make things worse. I know in my GU I had shot rear shocker rubbers and the noise it was giving off was terrible.

[taslucas]

Nah they didnt use a hoist, jacked up on the axles so no droop there at all.
Tyres are cooper stt's with only 17000ks on them, they still look brand new and have been re-balanced three times while trying to find the fault, came up balanced every time after the initial balance.
Front wheel bearings were a tad loose after bedding in but they have been nipped up (they have less than 3000ks on them).
Maybe a shock rubber or tail shaft or similar but it was driving fine before they touched it!
It feels just like a stuffed uni joint but they are fine.
Could it be trailing arm bushes? I haven't felt them yet




FanTapstic!

[Bob]

Jeez I feel for you Mate as there is nothing worse than a problem where the fix is not obvious.
Dont have any more suggestions but lets hope someone will be able to help

[Sir Roofy]

How about back wheel bearings ?or front jack shaft ,other than that theres some thing been left inside the tire

[taslucas]

How about back wheel bearings ?or front jack shaft ,other than that theres some thing been left inside the tire

Would wheel bearings do that? And such a drastic change from before I took it in.
The tyres were only rotated and balanced, they didn't pop the bead so I don't reckon anything is inside the tyre. Also I'm sure that would show up when balancing?

FanTapstic!

[Sir Roofy]

would wheel bearings do that? And such a drastic change from before i took it in.
The tyres were only rotated and balanced, they didn't pop the bead so i don't reckon anything is inside the tyre. Also i'm sure that would show up when balancing?

Fantapstic!

at this stage why not did they have trouble getting the rotors
off the first time or the rotors and calipars being new and a tad thicker
might be grabing

[taslucas]

They put my old rotors back on and the shuddering is still there.

FanTapstic!

[jack]

When I had my issue many years ago on a Ford, I purchased new tyres and they balanced up beautifully on the machine but had noticeable shuddering when driving. Stripped off all the weights and rebalanced a couple of times, no improvement.
Took it to another alignment specialist and explained the situation, we jacked up the car and he ran some type of balance machine under the tyre which spun the tyre at some speed. This showed the balance to be way out, took the tyre off checked the balance again on the normal wheel balancer which was perfect this proved it wasn't the wheel.
Started to check the brakes, hub etc. found an issue with the hub and replaced it, solved the problem. He told me he could have balanced it using that machine but safer to replace the hub.

They guy who checked it is no longer in business (long time ago) so I can't ask him what the machine was called. Suggest you check with some tyre/alignment shops in your area, they may have one of these machines. At the time this guy was an independent specialist so I don't think it was a very expensive machine.

Good luck mate, nearly drove me nuts at the time so understand your frustration.

[Brisat]

You need to balance the wheels while they are on the car as there are two parts to a wheel balance , dynamic and static. You cannot do a balance and get it right without spinning them up on the vehicle , also putting weights on the inside of the rim
rather than the outside works better sometimes. You will never get it to not vibrate as they destroyed the balance when they messed with it. All the other stuff on here is a bit far out really, discs out of round or buckled just doesn't happen, driveline has nothing to do with balance and if it is a uni it will vibrate on deceleration rather than power. It is mainly truck tyre places that have the necessary machines and expertise to do these balances

[pearcey]

G`day Lucas .
Remove the rear tail shaft and check the UJ`s to sea if there are any tight spots in them.
when they lift the car to do the work the axles hang a long way down and this can shift the bearings in to a different position.
It can even possibley nave a broken need,le in one of the crosses. If there is any small fault or tightness in a UJ it will cause a vibration .
But to check it you must remove the tail shaft
Best of luck mate

[Robo]

Have also heard weights on the inside works better for tyre bloke, sorry I didn't ask him why.
Its sounding a bit like his tyre balance machine maybe faulty.

Did you see all the work preformed from very start to finnish?.
A test driver didn't flat spot a tyre??

[taslucas]

Yeah it's just crap that it was fine before they rotated the tyres and fitted the rotors.
Also, as I've said above, the vehicle was jacked up by the axles so there shouldn't have been too much displacement.
The closest on car balancing place is an hour and a half away:-(

FanTapstic!

[BigRAWesty]

Was looking around today, and remembered the tyre weight beads which you add to the inside of your tyre.
Self balancing every time. If you can't locate the issue soon its maybe a path you could try.

I feel your frustration mate. Nothing worse than chasing your tail..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[Robo]

Worth a try adding the beads.

[taslucas]

Was looking around today, and remembered the tyre weight beads which you add to the inside of your tyre.
Self balancing every time. If you can't locate the issue soon its maybe a path you could try.

I feel your frustration mate. Nothing worse than chasing your tail..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

I'm fairly confident it's not the tyres that need any more balancing. They've been balanced three times now. And the problem wasn't there before I went to the shop and that's when the tyres would have been out a bit.


Worth a try adding the beads.

Are these what kallen is talking about above?
I've never seen them before

FanTapstic!

[jack]

Hey taslucas,

Did you ever get this sorted? Haven't seen any updates for a while so hope all is fixed.

[BigRAWesty]

I'm fairly confident it's not the tyres that need any more balancing. They've been balanced three times now. And the problem wasn't there before I went to the shop and that's when the tyres would have been out a bit.



Are these what kallen is talking about above?
I've never seen them before

FanTapstic!

http://www.bestrestproducts.com/c-100-dyna-beads.aspx

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[taslucas]

Hey taslucas,

Did you ever get this sorted? Haven't seen any updates for a while so hope all is fixed.

It's in at the shop today (not the tyre shop!!). Getting a few things done and it looks like it is a stuffed uni joint. It had gone stiff, not loose so there was no movement to be felt by hand. Hopefully it's the problem.
Must have just been a coincidence

FanTapstic!

[jack]

Good luck, hope that solves it

[pearcey]

Lucas mate
How did you get on with the UJ `s get them replaced or not .
If so hope the vibrations gone best of luck mate

[taslucas]

Hey pearcey, yeah picked up the trol last night and it's as smooth as silk:-):-)
The front uni was fried. It's just funny how that happened the same time I got the other stuff done.
The trol had been parked stationary for about 6 weeks before I got the rotors, balance rotate etc. That must have been enough to seize up the already stuffed uni joint.

Cheers for the help and comments guys, as usual much appreciated

FanTapstic!

[pearcey]

Great to hear it`s fixed and sorry to hear of the trouble finding the problem.

[happygu]

Good to hear it is all well Lucas.....now off to find another tyre shop, where they wont close the doors as you are driving in the driveway....

[Sir Roofy]

how about back wheel bearings ?or front jack shaft ,other than that theres some thing been left inside the tire

thought so front jack shaft uni joints

[jack]

Hey Lucas, good to hear. Nothing worse than not be able to pin down the cause

[BigRAWesty]

Hey pearcey, yeah picked up the trol last night and it's as smooth as silk:-):-)
The front uni was fried. It's just funny how that happened the same time I got the other stuff done.
The trol had been parked stationary for about 6 weeks before I got the rotors, balance rotate etc. That must have been enough to seize up the already stuffed uni joint.

Cheers for the help and comments guys, as usual much appreciated

FanTapstic!

Great to hear. And will keep it in the memory bank for future.

Do the gu still run greasable uni joints??

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?15134-Westy-s-Accessories.-A-small-back-yard-builder.)

[taslucas]

GQ has greasable unis

FanTapstic!

[Winnie]

It's like the squeak I had.... Took forever to find the problem and when we did it was awesome!

[taslucas]

It's like the squeak I had.... Took forever to find the problem and when we did it was awesome!

The afternoon I was driving it to the shop it started squeaking for the first time actually which was a coincidence. Had a suspicion it was the uni by then but as soon as it started squeaking I was a lot more certain.

FanTapstic!

[Lonicus]

Great to hear it's all sorted mate!

[Cuppa]

Hey pearcey, yeah picked up the trol last night and it's as smooth as silk:-):-)


Well that put a smile on my face, so you must be grinning ear to ear!