glow plug problems after $1000 spent

[kiwijase]

hi guys.
well on the advice of the good brothers here,i bit the bullet and bought 2 new batterys and a brand new alternater as i was having massive voltage problems.
Now....still an ongoing problem from months ago...........first crank of the day i have to turn the key on and off maybe five times to get the wagon to start (vrgy60),once its warm itll start no worries.My glow lite stays on for half a second each time,nowhere as long as it used to?
Also noticed my rev counter reading higher than 750rpm on start up?
Im not too fussed about the tacho,I just want to remedy the glow issue.
Could the timer be stuffed?
I also got sick of it blowing shitloads of white smoke in the morning,almost had a heatsoak like issue,it would pop and fart then clear its throat and run ok for the rest of the day.I drained the fuel filter to find maybe a cup of what tasted like antifreeze,it wasnt pure water,and was a slight pink colour....im stumped there?
any help would me appreciated as im a poor bugger and its the only family vehicle.
Thanks guys
Jason

[Yendor]

Hi Jason

You need to check that the glow plugs are getting power. When cold connect a voltmeter or test light to one of the glow plug.

Check that it is getting power and for how long it stays there compared to the glow plug warning light staying on.

Next thing you will need to test is each glow plug, to do this you will need to remove the metal bar that connects all the glow plugs and check each plug for continuity (resistance) if any of the glow plug are open circuit they will need to be replaced before we can perform additional tests.

Cheers Rodney

[kiwijase]

thanks rodney,ill be doing that today.
Very much appreciated :)

[kiwijase]

ok Rod,ive taken the busbar plate off the injectors and tested between the inj's and the head bolt for resistance.Im not too savvy with a multimeter and what range to set the dial at,its set at 2000k ohms.... it reads around 1600 -1800 on each injector,thats with the wagon cold and the lead to the busbar disconnected....
What next bud?

[Yendor]

I assume you mean glow plugs.

Did you check if they are getting power and for how long?, compared with how long the glow plug warning light stays on?

[kiwijase]

Hi again Rodney
Ok,the plugs are getting power for the same amount of time the dash light is on,the longer i leave the key in the off position,then when i turn the key to on,the longer the light stays on for........i hear the glow relay click on and off for the same amount of time also

[Yendor]

Depending on engine temperature you should be getting power at the glow plugs for 3-14 seconds.

It sound like you have a problem with the timer circuit, this could be a problem with the control unit, engine temperature sender or a wiring fault.

Double check all the fuse in the fuse box inside the vehicle, then check the connection at the engine temperature sender.

Or you can put a manual push button switch in the dash if you prefer.

[Yendor]

Have you had water inside the vehicle? up over the pedals?

[kiwijase]

when its dead cold it gets power for about 2 to 2 and a half seconds and thats it.
I checked the temp sender plug and it seems to have a good connection,i also took it out to check for corrosion,its clean as a whistle.
If the switch is an easy option,ill give that a go Rodney.
I also double checked the glow rail was getting power,its getting over 12volts,so i assume thats a good thing,but it stays on longer than the glow light,and the relay i hear under the panel,I had the wife turn the key while i took a reading off the bar while key was in ON position.

[Yendor]

when its dead cold it gets power for about 2 to 2 and a half seconds and thats it.
I checked the temp sender plug and it seems to have a good connection,i also took it out to check for corrosion,its clean as a whistle.
If the switch is an easy option,ill give that a go Rodney.
I also double checked the glow rail was getting power,its getting over 12volts,so i assume thats a good thing,but it stays on longer than the glow light,and the relay i hear under the panel,I had the wife turn the key while i took a reading off the bar while key was in ON position.
Where did you have the earth lead of your voltmeter connect to? try connecting it to the engine block.

Isn't your vehicle 24 volts?

[kiwijase]

yep,thats where i connected it Rodney,to the engine block.
Yes mine is 24volts

[Yendor]

At the glow plug relay there is a large White wire with a Red trace on it, measure the voltage at this wire when the glow plugs are on.

[kiwijase]

ok,at the relay on the wire you mentioned,with the key ON,im gettin 11.66vlts.I think i have two glow relays by the look of things Rodney,would that be of any help?
Thanks again

[Yendor]

How's the battery in your multimeter? try putting your multimeter across one battery, what does it read?

[kiwijase]

one battery reads 12.2 the other reads 12.4. Theyre brand new NS70 units.The muntimeter is fairly new and has only been used a few times,but it was only $15 from dick smith.

[Yendor]

At the other relay there should be a large White wire with a Green trace, measure the voltage at this wire when the glow plugs are on.

[Yendor]

At the same relay there should be a small Green wire with a White trace, measure the voltage when the glow plugs are on (just turn ignition off and on a few times).

There should also be a large White wire this should have 24 volts???

[kiwijase]

the other large white wire on the other relay doesnt have any coloured trace,but it has 12v with key off,when turned to the on position the meter drops to 11.4v

[kiwijase]

the green wire with the white trace(small wire on same relay) reads 11.5 when the key is turned on,stays the same after relays have clicked off too.

[Yendor]

I have heard there are some Y60 that are 24 volt start and 12 volt running but I wouldn't think there would be any in NZ.

I don't have a wiring diagram that suits your vehicle and it seems the one for the GU is also too different.

I'm not sure which way to proceed, I would hate to tell you the wrong thing because I don't have the correct information on your vehicle.

I still think it is a problem with the timer circuit. Here's a couple of other thing you can check:

I have attached a photo of how to test the relays and the temp. sender (I think the values should be correct).

In the driver side kick panel should be the control unit for the glow plugs, remove the cover and inspect for any signs of water damage.

If you have no luck with this, I still think we should be able to put a manual momentary push button switch in the dash.

[kiwijase]

i checked the water temp sender with the engine bone cold and it read 4.2 on the meter.
I also compared the glowcontrol unit to a pic and mine has no 4 pin in the same place as the pic(which i assume is earth,but mine is empty)).The pic shows a plug with 10 pins,my plug has 14,but not all have wires running thru them.
Thats pretty much where i stalled testing things before jumping on here and asking for help,the plug has me stumped!

[kiwijase]

ill check the relay in the morning,its gettin dark over here now.
Thanks for all your help today Rodney,ill report in tomorrow on the relay test.

[scotty83]

Have you had water inside the vehicle? up over the pedals?
What difference would this make?

[kiwijase]

thats where the glow control unit is,around that sort of height,so is the ECU on the passengers side from memory,i may be wrong though.....id suppose water could bugger either at theat level of water?
Ive never had water anywhere near the inside of the wagon anyways.

[kiwijase]

ok,with the relays,im not too sure which one to test,and i dont know what voltage im looking for.
How hard would the button option be Rodney,im losing patience with the bloody thing altogether.
Thanks again for your help

[Yendor]

Reasonably straight forward, we will just use the push button switch to work one of the original relays.

What colour wire connects to the glow plug busbar? one of the relays should have this same coloured wire, this is the relay we will use.

What are the other wire colours at this relay and wire size?

[kiwijase]

in one relay there is a large white with red trace (loops between both relays) ,a large red wire,a small green and black,and a black with brown marks on it.
Both relays have the large white with red trace,and thats the wire that rins to the glow bar

[Yendor]

Which relay does the large White wire go to? (from post 18)

What voltage does the large Red wire have with ignition off and when the glows plugs are on?

Can you take a photo of the wires at the relays?

[kiwijase]

the large white wire comes from what looks like a solinoid,into the first relay
Heres a pic Rodney.

[kiwijase]

http://s1057.photobucket.com/albums/t381/kiwi-plymouth/?action=view&current=DSCN1247.jpg

[kiwijase]

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t381/kiwi-plymouth/DSCN1247.jpg

[kiwijase]

the large red wire has -12vlts when off and 11.7 volts with the key turned to the on position

[97_gq_lwb]

From what i recall on the rd28 glow relay the green and white was a negative trigger instead of positive like in the td42 if that helps.
If you really get stuck i have an rd28 gq here i could probe.

[kiwijase]

hiya..
yeah im pretty thick when it comes to electrics,therefore i have no idea what you mean,and how it could help me out,sorry man.

[97_gq_lwb]

Yeah ok what i mean is that you can earth the green wire with a white trace through a momentary switch to turn on the initial glow relay..
I had glow issues with an rd28.
a simple test i did was remove the glow plugs from the engine and tested them individually by connecting them to a battery the 3 front are grounded by the engine so earth to the bit that screws into the head.
and then positive to the bit the bus bar connects to for a few seconds and they should glow red .
The 3 rear ones were odd if i applied earth to where the lower busbar connected and positive to the tip or where the top busbar connected they then glowed red.

anyway one of the front 3 front ones barely glowed at all i changed it and it problem solved.

[kiwijase]

will me taking the glow plugs out be needing any new seals,or sealant? Can i just put them straight back in after testing?
Im 50kms from anywhere and its the familys only vehicle.

[97_gq_lwb]

No it will be fine.
You can remove the bars and test them with a multimeter if it is easier for you.

[kiwijase]

i already tested the glows and they are all getting power (a few posts back).
Im starting to think its the timing circut as rodney mentioned.I took the temp sender out,checked and tested it,its working from what I can tell

[Yendor]

If you supply power to the small Green wire with a Black trace this should bring the glow plugs on.

As a test connect your voltmeter up at the glow plugs then temporary supply power to the Green wire with a Black trace, get the power from the large White wire at the same relay (for this test leave ignition switched off).

This should switch on this relay and supply power to the glow plugs for as long as you leave power connected to the Green wire with a Black trace.

If it works ok you will need to cut the Green wire with a Black trace about an inch away from the relay and connect a new wire to the wire that goes to the relay, run this wire inside the vehicle and connect to your momentary push button switch (make sure it is a good quality switch).

The other side of the switch needs a 12 volt ignition feed (only has 12 volts when the ignition is on).

To test, turn the ignition on push the button and once a again the voltmeter at the glow plugs should show power for as long as you have the button pushed in.

You will just need to work out how long you hold the button in for before cranking.

I'm still not sure why your glow plugs are 12 volts.

You will also need to clean that muck out of your fuel system.

Let us know how you go.

[97_gq_lwb]

Yendor on the rd28 the relay was negative triggered through the green wire white trace for some reason they changed it from positive.
Would this be the same with the other relay ?

Heres a glow plug test with a multimeter.
Notice the connections of the rear 3

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss117/it250k/rd28glow1.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss117/it250k/rd28glow.jpg

[Yendor]

He has the TD42 and only has one wire going to the busbar.

It is a good point about switching earth to relay.

Before doing the above, connect you voltmeter to the small Green with a black trace and record the readings with the ignition both on and off.

Then connect your voltmeter to the small black wire (at the same relay) and record the reading with the ignition both on and off.

[97_gq_lwb]

Ah ok i can see in the pic it has two glow relays like the rd28 though.

[Yendor]

I think his glow plug system is a two stage system possible with the dropping resistor/heater mounted in the inlet manifold.

[97_gq_lwb]

Kiwi can you take pics of the glow plugs and busbar setup does it have a short busbar on the rear 3 glow plugs only

[Yendor]

Interesting, he also has a tacho fault.

[97_gq_lwb]

ahhh might be the glow controller is the same as the rd28 crap.

[Yendor]

You might be onto something.

I have to go to work now, I will check in later.

[kiwijase]

Ok,here we go.
I turned the key on,ignoring the length of time the lite stayed on,and went and tested voltage at the glowplugs and it was reading around 5vlts,with the earth probe on the battery.That took about 10 seconds,then i went to start the truk and it went with no hesitation at all,so im wondering what the go is there?
I almost cut the green/black,but there is only 2inches of it exposed between relay and another plug,and i can barely get my hands in there to insulate with tape?
So what does that green/black wire do guys?

[97_gq_lwb]

It looks like yours might be similar or the same as an rd28 glow control system wich uses two glow relays and a different configuration to the normal td42.
Pics will help confirm this .
and it also might explain your tacho problems as the rd28 system used the glow controller to convert the tacho signal where as a normal td42 didn't.

If it has been in water at any stage of it's life the glow controller may have been drowned and corroded inside causing problems.
any chance of you taking off the kick panel on the drivers side and taking a pic of the box under the fuse panel as well.

[kiwijase]

yes the tacho does still read higher than the revs,buggered if i know,is it run off a crank sensor or similar?
Ok,heres a pic of the glow setup,and the one wire feeding it power.The glow bar is one whole unit and is the same length from the looks?

[kiwijase]

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t381/kiwi-plymouth/DSCN1249.jpg

[kiwijase]

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t381/kiwi-plymouth/DSCN1251.jpg

[kiwijase]

ive never had it wet since ive owned it,now 2yrs,but i did buy it off a indian guy that seemed a bit cagey here and there.
should i whip the thing open and check contacts and such?

[kiwijase]

ok,i pulled the it out and opened it,there was a little bit of oxidization on one of the two little black processors (i think thats what they are?)
I cleaned it best i could with a small screwy and biffed it back in,the tacho still reads 2500 and rising on idle,i noticed when the key is on and the engine is not running the tacho needle jumps and sits just off the resting pin it sits on when not running,if that makes any sense.

[kiwijase]

forgot to mention,its an intermittant problem,sometimes it does it on startup,then i notice when drivint its back to normal.

[97_gq_lwb]

Ok looking at the controller it appears to be like the earlier td42 one just 24 volt.
The double glow relay is a bit confusing can you take off the air box or get the camera in and take a shot of the rest of the glow plugs and how they connect up.

[kiwijase]

they all connect up the same way from what i saw when i removed the bar yesterday
http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t381/kiwi-plymouth/DSCN1253.jpg

[Yendor]

Ok,here we go.
I turned the key on,ignoring the length of time the lite stayed on,and went and tested voltage at the glowplugs and it was reading around 5vlts,with the earth probe on the battery.That took about 10 seconds,then i went to start the truk and it went with no hesitation at all,so im wondering what the go is there?
I almost cut the green/black,but there is only 2inches of it exposed between relay and another plug,and i can barely get my hands in there to insulate with tape?
So what does that green/black wire do guys?

That 5 volts is good, that means that stage 2 of the glow plugs is now working.

You may of had a bad connection at the temp. sender or one of the relays, double check terminals for corrosion and clean if necessary.

Then I would try another cold start with the voltmeter connected to the glow plugs and placed so you can see it when sitting in the vehicle.

The glow plug warning light in the dash does not reflect the whole time the glow plugs are on. This is what should happen

1. Turn the ignition on, glow plug warning light will come on for 2-6 seconds (depends on engine temperature).

2. Your voltmeter should show 12 volts for up to 15 seconds, even if the warning light is off in the dash.

3. After 15 seconds stage 2 should kick in, your voltmeter should be reading around 5-6 volts.

4. If you start the vehicle the voltmeter should keep reading 5-6 volts for a period of time or until engine reaches a certain temp.

I see the ECU is 24 volts, I guessing that someone at some stage has fitted 12 volt glow plugs.

[kiwijase]

Hi rodney.
Ok,i done as you said,and the strange thing is,I used the neg probe on a few earth points,and the readings were crazy.I earthed off the batt and got 5vlts or so,then earthed on the intake manifold and got 17v,then earthed it to the block again and got the same,17vlts?
I also let it run for 10mins and the voltage didnt chage at all,stayed at 17v?

[Yendor]

There is either something strange going on with your vehicles electrics or your multimeter.

I think you may need to take it to someone who can look at it for you, if you still have cold start issues.

I downloaded the Russian workshop manual from this forum and it has the closest matching wiring diagram that I can find to what you have told me about your vehicle.

I can't understand a written word but the pictures look good. :D I guess I can't say I got it for the articles then lol

[kiwijase]

that does look similar from what i can see,the resolutions a little small and my eyes are shot.
So my wagons a bit of an oddball rodney?

[Yendor]

I wouldn't say "oddball" but there is something strange going on by those voltage readings.